Verbal Etiquette question here: c'mon down teachers, professors, et all!

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Anyway, sadly, John dies. The widow Jones IS STILL Mrs. John Jones for as long as she chooses to be – including forever. No evil people should tell her otherwise. She may also choose to be Ms. Susan Jones. She is not, ever, under any circumstances Mrs. Susan Jones.
Yes, I know that oh-so-correctly, she ought to be, “Susan, Mrs John Jones,” but that’s just too awkward. She could theoretically be Miss Susan Dad even after marriage, although that shouldn’t be done since while “miss” is a title, it does denote marital status. “Ms” is just an ambiguous abbreviation and it has no full spelling of its own, though, and for that reason I find it somewhat ironical that the oh-so-correct old standards would admit “Ms Susan Jones” while rejecting any potential full spelling - which is “mistress” at any rate.

I may be a little biased, though, since in Polish we did admit “mrs” for spinsters after a while, some forms of address having previously been the same (the third person address for a spinster was pretty much never used). In fact we only ever use “miss” in translations into English and I’ve only seen one modern instance of this so far anyway (one fellow in my office calls his secretary Miss X).
 
Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese are similar, only with Signore, Señor, or Senhor, simply meaning “Lord”. And of course, their feminine counterparts mean “Lady.” I love that. I also love the different informal/formal uses of the second person. Though Italian can be a tad confusing because the formal pronoun for the second person is “lei” which also means “she”. So you really have to pay attention to context.
Same in Polish. “Sir”, “Lord”, “mister”, “master”, are all one word, except for some meanings of “master”.
 
Hi KC;

While I’m traditional, and knew I’d be dropping my maiden name when married, I don’t view women who don’t, as ‘liberal,’ really. They might have reasons behind keeping their maiden names beyond what might appear to us looking in.

I also think that if she wants to be called Ms. Johnson, that’s fine. I’m on a first name basis with my kids’ friends, who are close, and the others who are mere acquaintances call me Mrs…

But, that’s just me.
 
Would you mind writing some examples in Polish? Pretty please? 😃
Lol… okay… 😃

“Szanowny Pan” (m), “Szanowna Pani” (f) (usually “Sz. P.”) - “Honourable Sir/Mister” or “Honourable Mistress/Madam” (“honourable” is an adjective of “mister” and attaches strictly to it, instead of the person’s name which follows)
“Wielce Szanowny Pan” (usually “W. Sz. P.”) - “Greatly Honourable Sir/Mister”

It’s not actually the same as “honourable” in English styles. It’s somewhere between “respectable” and “honourable”, I guess.

Then you have:

“Wielmożny Pan” (usually “W. P.” or even just “WP”) - while it translates as “Magnipotent Lord” in the most exact rendition (it’s an archaic phrase and it was an exaggeration already when only nobles used it, but it actually survived through commie times 😛 ), it will be used even by a father writing to an underaged son. 😃 It’s simply the default envelope address.

Some really misguided people will upgrade it to “Jaśnie Wielmożny Pan”, which was only used with regard to very powerful nobles back in the time, like holders of great benefices. By extension it was given to lesser nobles as a matter of a polite exaggeration. It literally translates as “Serenely Magnipotent Lord”, which is enough to confuse anyone relying on the English translation. 😉

Names of offices only go with the lower style - the “Szanowny Pan”, say, “Szanowny Pan Prezydent” or “Szanowny Pan Minister” or “Szanowny Pan Dyrektor” - in such cases, there’s no abbreviating to “Sz. P.”, as a rule. Business stuff comes to “Szanowny Pan”, as well, or even just “Pan…” or simply the name and surname (which is impolite). The higher style, “Wielmożny Pan”, is generally only used in private correspondence and only on the envelope, not in any other place.

Please note that “Pan” without any adjectives is naturally understood the same as “Mister” in English, so it’s not “Lord”. 😉 Similarly, when we call people “Pan” + first name, it’s done pretty much the same way as the British “Sir” + first name, except it’s a little informal and it’s given to anyone you’d call “Mister”. If you aren’t using the person’s other title, surname or first name, “proszę pana” is the default direct address. Grammatically, it’s actually a verb with an object, but it means pretty much the same as the English “sir” when used to address people with respect (“proszę pani” to a woman). As a rule, “proszę pana” is more formal than “panie Surname” (“panie” is the Vocative of “pan”), which is more formal than “Panie First Name”. “Panie Other Title” is generally the most formal and the most respectful. These days, professionals say “Panie First Name” when they don’t want to go by names alone. “Panie Surname” is nearly never done. “Panie Title” is only used when the title is somewhat prestigious (director, manager, academic degree, military rank above private, names of some professions or functions) or when you don’t know anything but the person’s function - say, “Mister Driver, could you please…”

I know you’re totally confused now. 😃
 
True, but in a later post you seemed to say you’d be going with the call-a-married-woman-Mrs-endov advice regardless of how the woman herself felt about it.
NO – I didn’t.

I said I ended our original conversation with it being Mrs. because I explained that my kids know that to refer to a married woman it’s MRS.

I said:
For now – the people whom they know are married – will be going by Mrs.
MEANING THE PEOPLE IN MY REAL LIFE who have already been subjected to what I want for my kids, and have simply said “yeah whatever.” SPECIFICALLY – my girlfriend aired the etiquette fact, yet when I told her “but my kids know you are married … therefor … in their minds/reality you are a MRS.!”

This is not a big deal. Actually I have already decided to change it with my girlfriend in question due to the etiquette I learned here. Just so you all know, it’s not like she stood there screaming, crying and protesting – she just argued the actual ETIQUETTE, not her ROLE in the etiquette in regards to my children.

I suppose I posted in the wrong manner with wrong tone and not enough clarity. Thanks Guitar, I honestly didn’t understand all the back-lash until your post, and my own back-research to see my posting misstep for all this angst.

TO BE CLEAR: NO I wouldn’t deny a person, namely a woman – an honor she wants. That came across badly, and it’s truly my own fault. :tiphat: :love: 👋
 
NO – I didn’t.

I said I ended our original conversation with it being Mrs. because I explained that my kids know that to refer to a married woman it’s MRS.

I said:
MEANING THE PEOPLE IN MY REAL LIFE who have already been subjected to what I want for my kids, and have simply said “yeah whatever.” SPECIFICALLY – my girlfriend aired the etiquette fact, yet when I told her “but my kids know you are married … therefor … in their minds/reality you are a MRS.!”

This is not a big deal. Actually I have already decided to change it with my girlfriend in question due to the etiquette I learned here. Just so you all know, it’s not like she stood there screaming, crying and protesting – she just argued the actual ETIQUETTE, not her ROLE in the etiquette in regards to my children.

I suppose I posted in the wrong manner with wrong tone and not enough clarity. Thanks Guitar, I honestly didn’t understand all the back-lash until your post, and my own back-research to see my posting misstep for all this angst.

TO BE CLEAR: NO I wouldn’t deny a person, namely a woman – an honor she wants. That came across badly, and it’s truly my own fault. :tiphat: :love: 👋
lol KC! This post started off like:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

but then went to:

http://www.foreversetfree.com/angel baby.jpg

I think you’re pretty much entitled to have your kids use one system, and not get confused for strangers.

No one denies anyone the right to use whatever name they want, but that doesn’t mean we have to call people who change their name to “Inspector gadget” … “inspector gadget” (for example :D).

Besides, isn’t the purpose of Ms / Mrs to indicate your marital status. Otherwise we could do away with titles altogether.
 
Besides, isn’t the purpose of Ms / Mrs to indicate your marital status. Otherwise we could do away with titles altogether.
In some languages, you are something like the English “master” until you marry. “Master” or “young mister/lord” or even something closer to “boy” or “young man”. If I were forty and unmarried, I’m not sure I’d love to use that kind of title. In fact, I would already not want to use one. Therefore I can understand women not wanting to disclose their single status sometimes. 😉
 
In some languages, you are something like the English “master” until you marry. “Master” or “young mister/lord” or even something closer to “boy” or “young man”. If I were forty and unmarried, I’m not sure I’d love to use that kind of title. In fact, I would already not want to use one. Therefore I can understand women not wanting to disclose their single status sometimes. 😉
In French, the title depends on age, not on marital status. “Mademoiselle” is any woman under 25, even if she married her high school sweetheart the day after graduation. “Madame” is any woman over 25, even if she’s still looking for her special someone.
 
Originally Posted by Magicsilence
Besides, isn’t the purpose of Ms / Mrs to indicate your marital status. Otherwise we could do away with titles altogether.
The purpose of Ms. is to specifically NOT indicate your marital status.

And, really, to be honest, I don’t think it is all that complicated for even very young children to adjust to the occasional exception to the rule, nor do I think most women are so vested in their title that if a youngster makes a mistake they will be offended, although they certainly may say, “I’m Ms. Smith, dear.” After all, some of their friends have one last name and the mother has another (a widow remarries, for example), and some of them have friends who have sisters or brothers with different last names (blended families, subsequent marrages after the aforementioned widow remarries). Wee ones are pretty flexible . . .more so than some grown-ups!
 
Thanks Guitar, I honestly didn’t understand all the back-lash until your post, and my own back-research to see my posting misstep for all this angst.

TO BE CLEAR: NO I wouldn’t deny a person, namely a woman – an honor she wants. That came across badly, and it’s truly my own fault. :tiphat: :love: 👋
🙂 It has been a genuinely interesting thread!

I came on pretty strongly in my initial post because I have dealt with this issue with my parents who although truly good people overstepped a great many marks, and their attempt to impose their will on me over this issue was symptomatic of the overall problem.

I didn’t want to change my name at all on marriage but agreed to a compromise as H liked the idea of Mrs but I made it very clear to family how I was not to be addressed. My parents completely ignored that and it took a period of me returning incorrectly addressed mail to sender and sending mail to my mother as Miss Hername MaidenName plus a few other things before they got it. (It wasn’t entirely devoid of humour though, my father at that point took to sending all our mail addressed to one of the cats. 😛 And my mother took fright because their post mistress was an air-brained gossip and Mum thought rumours would get round the village that she’d left Dad and a new girlfriend had moved in. :eek: 😃 )

It also reminds me of a different but related “issue” I had when engaged. H is 17 years older than I and only 14 years younger than my mother. He initially called them by their first names and I was never comfortable with that … rightly or wrongly I felt he should be on my “social rung” in regard to my parents. He never felt comfortable at all with Mum or Dad and it ended up a joking “Ma” and “Pa” (terms not in common use here) which avoided the first names I didn’t like and the normal parental address he didn’t like.

Names can sure be a hot button issue!
 
In French, the title depends on age, not on marital status. “Mademoiselle” is any woman under 25, even if she married her high school sweetheart the day after graduation. “Madame” is any woman over 25, even if she’s still looking for her special someone.
That might be how they address people these days, but the titles have historically denoted marital status and they have done so until recently as well. Even despite modern customs (you do not want to call a 40 year old professional a miss or mademoiselle) gaining ground, with surnames following one has to be more conservative. A wife of, say, Monsieur Piquot is not Mademoiselle Piquot, even if some people might call her mademoiselle because of her age and in spite of a wedding ring.
 
👍

If someone insisted on their children addressing me by a name that is not my name, I would (carefully avoiding catching the children between two adults) take the parent aside and explain that I do not even permit my parents to address me by a name that is not now my chosen name so I respectfully request that you also use my name. How I am to be addressed is no one’s decision but mine.

I always respect others’ preferences … but I feel strongly enough about it that I don’t associate with anyone who doesn’t respect it. How I am addressed is an extremely personal issue and a boundary I will not have crossed.

.
Agree Guitar.

I don’t usually use a title and when people ask why not, I say my first name is good enough.

If I must use a title (eg if a form will not save because some has badly designed it), I use Ms as my marital status is usually irrelevant. If marital status it is relevant then the form should ask as a separate question as age usually is.

Why have Mrs and Miss for women anyway. Is it so important that our marital status is known on meeting? If so, should there be an equivalent of “Miss” so we know a man is unmarried. Should we also have different titles for those who are “partnered”.

Changing the subject slightly something else with names also annoys me - people who insist on giving me a nickname and using after I have asked them not to do so. Also people who shorten by first name and keep doing so after I have objected. Finally those who start using a nickname a close family member uses without checking if its okay. (It never is)
 
So you position is that you can call people whatever you like, **against their specified wishes **simply because it’s easier to explain to your child?

What kind of lesson does that teach your child?
Wow, BillP, good call. I thought it was a great response, but you really nailed it.
It really doesn’t teach respect, does it?
 
Why have Mrs and Miss for women anyway. Is it so important that our marital status is known on meeting? If so, should there be an equivalent of “Miss” so we know a man is unmarried. Should we also have different titles for those who are “partnered”.
Well, I’m about as traditional as they come. Almost.

I am a single parent. I’m a teacher. My kids’ dad is also a teacher in my same town. I can not be associated with him, it’s very uncomfortable. So, I changed my name back to my maiden name. After all, I have never been married in the eyes of the Church.

The whole professional name representing marital status for females but not for men is painfully awkward.
My “ex” keeps his professional name and career no matter how many times he gets married or into liasons with partners. But my name had to be changed to protect the innocent. You can’t have two Mrs. ____'s teaching in the same district.

When I’m teaching at my kids’ school, my legal name is on my nametag. That confuses kids.

I HATE IT!!!

At work when my kids aren’t associated I like to be Miss ___.

I love to be called: “_____'s Mommy”😃 , and I don’t mind being called Mrs. ____ around my kids.

I really think this bothers me more than anyone.

If you’re kids are raised calling mothers and married ladies Mrs. ___, it wouldn’t bother me.
 
Besides, isn’t the purpose of Ms / Mrs to indicate your marital status. Otherwise we could do away with titles altogether.
Well that would be only one of its purposes - other purposes of course being as a respectful substitute for the first name and to indicate gender. Hence men being accorded ‘Mister’ to denote them as male and as a simple term of respect, even if such designation doesn’t reveal their marital status.
 
Actually, one of my problems arises not witth confusion over one of my customer’s marital status…but their sex.

I have had at least two customers whose sex I cannot determine. So I don’t know whether to use “Ma’am” or “Sir”.

I hate when that happens. 😦
 
Actually, one of my problems arises not witth confusion over one of my customer’s marital status…but their sex.

I have had at least two customers whose sex I cannot determine. So I don’t know whether to use “Ma’am” or “Sir”.

I hate when that happens. 😦
Particularly if it’s a phone conversation as sometimes in a one-to-one situation you may get some clues.
 
Particularly if it’s a phone conversation as sometimes in a one-to-one situation you may get some clues.
I’ve had the customer in question in front of me, spoken with them, and *still *had no clue.
 
Actually, one of my problems arises not witth confusion over one of my customer’s marital status…but their sex.

I have had at least two customers whose sex I cannot determine. So I don’t know whether to use “Ma’am” or “Sir”.

I hate when that happens. 😦
“Dear customer.” 😉 I like being addressed like that. 😃 Makes me feel special. 😃
 
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