Vernacular with Traditional rites

[Jen95]

I guess this all raises a separate question but now about traditionalists! Why desire TLM so much if the OF can be celebrated in what seems to be a very similar way? I suppose that is a question for them. Perhaps the association is so great. I guess the other question is why Latin is preferred by some even at the expense of some understanding. I think I need to attend some services and then chat to some folk.

OF can be celebrated in a similar way, but is it ever? It’s not like I can go up to our pastor and “order” a more traditional OF, as if church were a restaurant. Most American parishes get a similar stew of English / sacro-pop music / “renovated” church architecture. Parishioners aren’t asked “would you prefer a more (fill in the blank) style of Mass?”
The only place I have seen the OF in Latin is at St. John Cantius in Chicago, which is noted for its high-quality liturgies.

 

[choose_to_love]

“(Note I’m Australian)”

But I thought you were, you know . . . . Bithynian???

 

[paulthehanna]

As a Latin Catholic, I’m getting a bit confused as to why you keep bringing this up after numerous people have offered you explanations on why the Western Church had Latin Mass for so long and why some people still like to have it.

Because frankly, none of the explanations really answer the question.

We didn’t have a lot of “problems” with the Latin Mass. For the most part, people in the US weren’t out there agitating to get rid of it.

So why did the Church conduct Vatican II at all? You make it sound to be a conspiracy. Surely the Church saw it to be a valuable exercise? What I was told by (some older) Catholics is that it was sorely needed to make Mass more accessible and was welcomed at the time.

Let me explain my position if I am not making sense. A dominant struggle in Orthodox/Oriental churches has been between those who want to keep (linguistic) Tradition and those who want to make things more accessible (by translating). The Orthodox church has suffered great loss by keeping the liturgy in a traditional language. Hierarchs insist on keeping ‘our language’ while people leave by the bucket load. It is said the Greek church in Australia has lost two generations of faithful. Similarly it is a historical fact that heresy has plagued the Coptic faithful due to not understanding the liturgy. There is a tension then between keeping tradition which is valuable and making Mass/Liturgy more accessible. It seems to me that Vatican II seemed to be trying to resolve that tension (from my reading of the constitution on sacred liturgy), otherwise why change Mass so radically? I really struggle to believe that this was not an issue in the Catholic Church at all - I mean that from all of my life experience, I cannot believe no one found Latin a barrier. Otherwise I am sure you are not suggesting the council was called in error.

While this is a very broad generalisation, I think it’s characteristic of Australian culture (both public and religious) that we place much less of a premium on “tradition” than most other English-speaking countries.

I am sorry but I don’t think this is the case. I am not Australian by cultural heritage and I can appreciate the need to keep tradition but not simply for the sake of it. As St. Cyprian of Carthage says “custom without truth is the antiquity of error”. I actually take most of my lead from the Orthodox Church of America.
Also the Greek Orthodox Church in Australia has been the slowest to translate their liturgy and only announced English-speaking parishes for the first time last week. The Antiochians and the Copts offer regular English services (at least where I live).

I am sorry (to everyone) if I am labouring the point but I think this is crucially important.

 

[Bithynian]

I am not Australian by cultural heritage

My mistake.

Greek Orthodox Church in Australia has been the slowest to translate their liturgy

They have offered English services for around three decades.

 

[paulthehanna]

Apropos of several topics that come up in the thread (I hope)

Thank you for this, I think these discuss some of the pertinent issues.

They have offered English services for around three decades.

Perhaps what I meant to say is they have been the slowest to offer regular English services. Where I currently live, there are English services offered about once a month which is very far from being enough to sustain a congregation.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, we’re not losing people in the Catholic Church in USA over a lack of liturgy in the vernacular. It’s currently everywhere and not going away soon. Nor is anyone arguing about the availability of a few Latin Masses.

I am simply at a loss as to what explanation you’re looking for. I hope you find whatever answer you seek. I’m stepping off the thread now.

 

[paulthehanna]

Fair enough. I was just coming back to say I think this is a fairly complex topic that I will need to do some reading on. Thank you!

 

[Bithynian]

Apologies OP, I think I was misinterpreting the timbre of the post as it developed over the length of the thread. I’ll try and answer your post from the beginning.

I have been to TLM which is nice but I cannot understand why it does not exist in English.

Largely because the decision to translate the liturgy into vernacular languages occurred at the same time as the decision to revise the form of the liturgy.

As the older form (the Tridentine Mass) was expected to be deprecated in most dioceses, there was no warrant to translate it into vernacular languages.

Why not? (Is it just a knee jerk reaction to the Novus Ordo To keep things in Latin?) Could it ever change?

As to why it still has not been translated even though there is a resurgence of interest in the Tridentine Mass, it’s largely because the Tridentine Mass being in Latin is a substantial part of the interest given that it’s the traditional liturgical language of Western Christianity.

There is also a body of criticism by liturgical traditionalists that the Mass of Paul VI is liturgically, aesthetically or doctrinally inferior to the Tridentine Mass. This is entering into a whole other realm of controversy that I think is, in most cases, separate from the decision to offer the liturgy in the vernacular.

In most respects a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular is unlikely to satisfy anybody: neither the liturgical traditionalists desirous of return to the Tridentine Mass and a universal liturgical language, nor the liturgical “developers” (for lack of a better term) who are happy with the Mass of Paul VI and its vernacular celebrations.

Note: I feel it’s important to emphasise the somewhat local nature of the increased interest in the Tridentine Mass. France and the US are two hotspots for liturgical traditionalist thought, and Australia (to put it mildly) is not. While Australia does have Tridentine Masses (mainly by the FFSP and the canonically ambiguous SSPX), the overwhelming majority of Australian Catholics have zero interest.

 

[Fuerza]

This site will help you a little in your research.

https://sanctamissa.org/en/spirituality/

The whole site is worth reviewing, but the above link goes directly to their articles page.

 

[paulthehanna]

Thank you for this, it certainly helps. I had a quick read of Von Hildebrand’s case for the Latin Mass and am now beginning to appreciate the differences between Churches.

Largely because the decision to translate the liturgy into vernacular languages occurred at the same time as the decision to revise the form of the liturgy.

I think this is key.

It seems to me there is a dichotomy held in the minds of Catholics between the TLM and the OF/NO. Language is intimately associated with rites because of historical development (which is not the case in the Orthodox Church). This word ‘vernacular’ is highly interesting because I think there is greater issue with quality of vocabulary rather than choice between Latin and English. If Vernacular is defined as common, colloquial or everyday then Divine Liturgy is not celebrated in the vernacular but it is celebrated in English. I think Divine Liturgy aims to use the highest language, even occasionally borrowing directly from the Greek if a word cannot be expressed appropriately in English.
Let me quote from the Coptic Gregorian Liturgy:
"O You, THE BEING, Who was and Who abides forever, the Eternal, co-essential, co-enthroned and co-creator with the Father Who for the sake of goodness only, brought man into existence out of non-existence and put him in the paradise of joy…’.
This is not ‘common’ language - and as Von Hildebrand envisions, I believe it elevates a person and encourages reverence - but it is understandable by an English-speaking audience. Note that we have kept the same melodies because they are considered - again - the highest quality of a particular musical tradition passed down. Again, I think the question is of quality not language.

In most respects a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular is unlikely to satisfy anybody:

While no one is strictly asking for it, if I may make the claim, I think it would have benefits in the lives of the faithful and encourage conversion but that is my humble opinion.

While Australia does have Tridentine Masses

You are right in that they are not common and perhaps your earlier comments about Australian culture apply here. But being Orthodox virtually all of my Catholic friends end up being ‘trads’ who attend TLM.

Thank you everyone. I suppose the conclusion is that because of the historical associations between ritual and language, a ‘traditional/tridentine’ English Mass is not likely to exist in the Catholic Church apart from Solemn OF Masses (which I’ve yet to explore). I think this is something of a shame because I think many (myself included) are craving traditional western liturgy - in a language we understand - and at least in my country it does not seem to exist. I pray that God provides.

 

[Agnus-Dei]

I can pretty much choose the Mass experience I want to have on any given Sunday.

Braggart. english only here. Asked the priest about a latin service, yes, 78miles from my house. That won’t be happening. I’ll watch it on the interwebs I guess.
Dominus vobiscum

 

[Fuerza]

I think you said that you were in Australia. Search out a parish of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross. They use the Divine Worship Missal, which is probably the closest that you will find to what you are looking for.