Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Sherry_G]

It is Jesus in whom salvation is found. Not in any church, Catholic, Protestant, or others. Churches are all man-made, but the Scripture is God breathed. I’ll put my faith in Scripture before I will put it in any doctrine.

I think that the Catholic church has changed their minds on things over the years on several issues. I was born, raised, and practiced Catholicism well for almost 40 years, and I do have issues with that, too.

Please enlighten me about your separation from the Catholic church if you would. I have a suspicion that it’s not the Church which changed, but you yourself, deciding not to follow church teaching here and there, maybe on some “small” issues at first and gradually, over time, coming to the conclusion that you yourself could become your own church and make up your own rules. It really is a lot easier to decide for yourself, isn’t it?:bible1:
Just your and your bible?

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi
For infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

Yes, when the Pope acts as above, and not otherwise, he is defining an infallible doctrine.
The dogma on the exercise of papal infallibility from Ecumenical Council Vatican I in Pastor Aeternus, Chap 4, #9, declares infallibly:
“Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.” This because Jesus gave Peter and his successors,. primacy of jurisdiction and infallibility.

Okay. So the pope does have the authority to act alone provided that he satisfies the above requirements (which he would also be the same one to decide and declare).

Sola fide, or “faith alone” is erroneous, just as sola scriptura (scripture alone) is erroneous.

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes; She has the seven sacraments, including the Holy Eucharist, and Sacred Tradition.

What?! Do you mean to say that what Christ did on the cross wasn’t enough? That is simply bad hermeneutics! **I am filling up **(Gk. antanaplēroō) what is lacking (Gk. hysterēma) in Christ’s afflictions does not imply that there is a deficiency in Christ’s atoning death and suffering on the cross, which would contradict the central message of this letter and all the rest of Scripture as well (cf. Heb. 9:12, 24–26; 10:14). Christ’s sufferings are in fact sufficient, and nothing of one’s own can be added to secure salvation. What was “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions was the future suffering of all who (like Paul) will experience great affliction for the sake of the gospel, as Paul described, e.g., in 2 Cor. 1:8–10. (Cf. Phil. 2:30, where Paul tells the Philippians that Epaphroditus risked his life “to complete [Gk. anaplēroō] what was lacking [Gk. hysterēma] in your service to me”.)

Christ’s death on the cross was sufficient for the salvation of the world but efficient only for many because not all are saved.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi, the Cardinal’s essay is just his personal opinion in a journal on which many prominent Catholics and Jews sit on the editorial board: First Things.

Let me ask you then: do you believe the billions of souls who never had an opportunity to hear or learn of Jesus Christ throughout history: Buddhists (who could be atheists), Hindus, Taoists, African animists, etc. are ALL damned to Hell? They never professed Jesus Christ as savior. Are all these billions of souls destined for Hell because they never accepted Christ as savior? You are an evangelical and I’d be interested in what you think? If you believe they can be saved, where exactly in the Bible is that written?

Since you also mentioned the Jewish faith, as an evangelical, do you agree with fellow-evangelical John Hagee’s bestsellers on how the Apocalypse is to come about and who will be saved of Christians and Jews?

Looking forward to your reply.

As to John Hagee, no, I don’t agree with everything he says. He has some teachings which border on heresy. He is a zionist, kinda extreme actually. However, I do support Israel in their cause for national freedom and security. Check out the book CHRISTIANITY IN CRISIS by Hank Hanegraaf. He gives a good discussion on the flawed teachings of some of the most prominent televangelists/pastors of the 21st century. The Bible teaches that the Jews will ultimately come to accept Jesus at the end of the age. As to when that would be, no one knows. As with any other person, a Jew much accpet Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved. If the Jew dies without accepting Jesus, then that Jew shall go to Hell. No Jew is ignorant of Jesus as Jesus was Himself a Jew and part of its history.

As to the other unreached people who have not even heard of Christ, the truth is, there are no innocent people. The Bible teaches that we are all imperfect, selfish, weak, sinful, rebellious, and spiritually unclean. We are all dead in our sins and deserving of God’s wrath (Romans 3:9-20; Ephesians 2:1-10).

The Bible makes it clear that through nature and conscience each person has some knowledge about God and sin for which he is accountable. (Read Romans 1:18-2:16 and Psalm 19:1.) Thus, everyone really knows, if he is honest, that God exists and that to ignore Him has serious consequences. Further, the Bible teaches in the passage in Romans that God will judge us by the light we have received.

Even primitive societies have a concept of right and wrong, and those people know that they do not always measure up to even their own standards. One does not go to hell because he has not heard about Jesus, but because he: (a) is a sinner and falls short of God’s standard, and (b) he thumbs his nose at the God he knows exists.

God’s wrath is very severe toward anyone who continually rebells against Him (Nahum 1:2-6, Psalm 90:7-8). Indeed, rejecting God in any of His Trinitarian persons (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) condemns one to hell. Rejecting God the Father—Romans 1:18-32. Rejecting Jesus—John 3:36; John 8:24. Rejecting the Holy Spirit—Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29.

But the Bible also teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)! And it implies that whoever seeks after God earnestly will find him (Deuteronomy 4:29; Psalm 86:5; Proverbs 8:17; Jeremiah 29:13; Matthew 7:7-8). God is fair as well as just. We are confident, for example, that the Old Testament patriarchs who lived by faith before Jesus’ earthly ministry, are in heaven. So certainly some people have gotten to heaven without knowing Jesus in the personal way that the New Testament speaks of. Ultimately only God can judge as only He knows the individual’s heart. We hold out hope that for those who have not heard but have not rejected God, those have been misinformed, or those who are unable to understand (children, mentally ill, etc) may be pardoned by a just God.

Certainly, the Bible does not teach “universalism.” Universalism is the idea that everyone gets to heaven.

The Bible clearly teaches that the only certain way to heaven is through Jesus (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). We are confident that God will not hold anyone accountable for any knowledge he did not receive. At the same time, the Bible emphatically states that Christ is the only sure way to salvation. Anyone who has heard of the saving grace of Jesus, and rejects it, would be thumbing his nose at God (John 3:36).

To reject Jesus is a serious matter. It is tantamount to refusing God’s offer of reconcilation to sinful man. As R.C. Sproul points out, those who have heard and reject Christ face double jeopardy. That is to say, you would be guilty by your sinful nature and guilty also for having rejected God’s son. Thus “religion” without Christ does not redeem people but may add to their ultimate guilt.

 

[bluelake]

I was a Baptist, but have been attending a Catholic Church for the past 3 years. I really felt like the Catholic Church might be the true Church, but I am hopelessly hung up on the “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” dogma, and haven’t been able to figure it out.

As I understand it, “No Salvation Outside CC” is a dogma. That means that once it is set in place, it can’t be changed, right? As I read old “classic” Catholic literature (Alphonsus Ligouri, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, etc), I see a literal “no nonsense” understanding of “No Salvation Outside CC”. I have many pages of quotes and Church writings that say so. This teaching began (as far as I can tell) even before the year 100, and had been taught consistently up until about the last 50 years or so.

Okay, here’s the confusing part. In the modern Catholic Church, this isn’t taught anymore. In fact, the opposite it now taught. I talked to “my priest” and asked him about it, and he said that the CC realized that had been too harsh, and had changed it’s mind - they are more “merciful” since Vatican II. I didn’t think that dogma could be changed like that, can it?

I’m very confused about the whole dogma thing. Can dogma change? Can ex-cathedra dogma be wrong? Is my priest wrong? Is this just something that I’m not supposed to understand?

Also, am I the only Catholic that is hopelessly confused about this topic? I’ve looked for information about this, and all I can find is sedevacantist stuff, which has it’s own set of big problems. It seems everyone else I talk to (several other priests included) is satisfied with the explanation that 1900 years of beliefs have changed in the last 50 years. Am I the only one who is frustrated with this?

I can post some of the saints’ and Popes’ quotes if requested, but I didn’t want to make this post go unnecessarily long.

Can anyone help me, please?

Dogma and sacred scripture are not the same.
the Bible is the word of God. 2 Tim.3;16
Dogma is put forth by the authority of man. I will add some teachings are bible based. some seem to be opinions and not based on scripture. My opinion, again.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[Abu]

Bengoshi
We cannot be saved without our cooperation up to our death; we have been redeemed until then. This is at the heart of salvation for everyone. “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

As stated by Paul, for our salvation, what is lacking is what only we can do, for the sake of His Body which is the Church; no one has said that there is anything lacking in Christ’s redemptive passion and crucifixion which has enabled the possibility of our salvation. How could there be? Christ was acting for the whole human race, not instead of, not as a substitute. “He bore our sins in His own Body on the Cross.” (1Pet. 2:29). What did Paul say must happen because Christ is the one mediator? “Supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men” (1Tim 2:1-5). Thus we are all called to be co-redeemers. [See *Christ In Eclipse, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 105-108).

Paul has restated the problem of suffering – how not to waste it but how to make use of it. Hebrews tells us that Jesus entered heaven on our behalf (9:24), and Paul explains (Rom 8:34) that He is at the right hand of the Father, “interceding for us,” pleading with God for us; and “He holds His priesthood permanently.” (Heb 7:24). That is precisely why His continuing priesthood breaks through to our altars at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Bride, His Church.

 

[Abu]

bluelake
Dogma and sacred scripture are not the same…the Bible is the word of God. 2 Tim.3;16
Dogma is put forth by the authority of man

.

Christ’s Church gave us the Word of God, by defining which writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus wrote nothing but gave us His Church to teach us infallibly on faith and morals – dogma and doctrine.

See post #151.

 

[bluelake]

I was a Baptist, but have been attending a Catholic Church for the past 3 years. I really felt like the Catholic Church might be the true Church, but I am hopelessly hung up on the “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” dogma, and haven’t been able to figure it out.

As I understand it, “No Salvation Outside CC” is a dogma. That means that once it is set in place, it can’t be changed, right? As I read old “classic” Catholic literature (Alphonsus Ligouri, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, etc), I see a literal “no nonsense” understanding of “No Salvation Outside CC”. I have many pages of quotes and Church writings that say so. This teaching began (as far as I can tell) even before the year 100, and had been taught consistently up until about the last 50 years or so.

Okay, here’s the confusing part. In the modern Catholic Church, this isn’t taught anymore. In fact, the opposite it now taught. I talked to “my priest” and asked him about it, and he said that the CC realized that had been too harsh, and had changed it’s mind - they are more “merciful” since Vatican II. I didn’t think that dogma could be changed like that, can it?

I’m very confused about the whole dogma thing. Can dogma change? Can ex-cathedra dogma be wrong? Is my priest wrong? Is this just something that I’m not supposed to understand?

Also, am I the only Catholic that is hopelessly confused about this topic? I’ve looked for information about this, and all I can find is sedevacantist stuff, which has it’s own set of big problems. It seems everyone else I talk to (several other priests included) is satisfied with the explanation that 1900 years of beliefs have changed in the last 50 years. Am I the only one who is frustrated with this?

I can post some of the saints’ and Popes’ quotes if requested, but I didn’t want to make this post go unnecessarily long.

Can anyone help me, please?

Xbaptist,
Yes, please read 2Tim.2:13
God does not show favortism. Rom.2:11

For anyone to say, “We have the truth,” Catholic, Pentecostal or others, is to say
Jesus Christ died on the cross for them ‘only’

Jn.3;16 reads 'God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Jesus Christ loves everyone, especially sinners.

The first step is to have faith and then have a personal relationship with our Lord .
We are commanded by Christ to love others as he loved us. Mt.22:36-40

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[KyivAndrew]

As with any other person, a Jew much accpet Jesus as Lord and Savior in order to be saved. If the Jew dies without accepting Jesus, then that Jew shall go to Hell. No Jew is ignorant of Jesus as Jesus was Himself a Jew and part of its history.

O.K. Well let’s be blunt then. You, a sola scriptura evangelical, obviously believe purgatory (Catholic) or a "purging’ after death (Orthodox) to be non-Biblical, so a Jewish person like ChosenPeople who posted on this thread in your evangelical view is damned to Hell if he doesn’t accept Jesus as Lord and Savior before his death, and all those millions of Jews, children, grandparents, who perished in the Shoah in death camps like Sobibor, Treblinka, etc. and have died are in hell too if they did not accept Jesus as lord and savior before their extermination, is that correct, because they obviously knew of Jesus as Jews as you state?

And some of the wonderful Jewish coverts to Catholicism on CAF we have: if their Jewish parents don’t become Christians and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior these parents too are most certainly damned to Hell in your view, no ifs, ands, or buts, correct?

 

[Abu]

bluelake
For anyone to say, “We have the truth,” Catholic, Pentecostal or others, is to say
Jesus Christ died on the cross for them ‘only’

No. As you should now know, Christ built His Church on Peter. It is fantasy to try to separate Christ from His Church. From that all error springs.
The Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16).

 

[Bengoshi]

O.K. Well let’s be blunt then. You, a sola scriptura evangelical, obviously believe purgatory (Catholic) or a "purging’ after death (Orthodox) to be non-Biblical, so a Jewish person like ChosenPeople who posted on this thread in your evangelical view is damned to Hell if he doesn’t accept Jesus as Lord and Savior before his death, and all those millions of Jews, children, grandparents, who perished in the Shoah in death camps like Sobibor, Treblinka, etc. and have died are in hell too if they did not accept Jesus as lord and savior before their extermination, is that correct, because they obviously knew of Jesus as Jews as you state?

And some of the wonderful Jewish coverts to Catholicism on CAF we have: if their Jewish parents don’t become Christians and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior these parents too are most certainly damned to Hell in your view, no ifs, ands, or buts, correct?

Exactly! I know it sounds harsh, but it is the Truth as taught by Jesus Christ and the apostles. For if it is possible to be saved without having faith in Christ, especially, for those who actually know about Him, then Jesus died for nothing. So if ChosenPeople will continue to reject Jesus as the proimised Messiah in whom salvation is given by grace, then, sad to say, he will most definitely go to Hell. Remember, it is the unbelieving Jews who had Jesus crucified.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi
We cannot be saved without our cooperation up to our death; we have been redeemed until then. This is at the heart of salvation for everyone. “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

As stated by Paul, for our salvation, what is lacking is what only we can do, for the sake of His Body which is the Church; no one has said that there is anything lacking in Christ’s redemptive passion and crucifixion which has enabled the possibility of our salvation. How could there be? Christ was acting for the whole human race, not instead of, not as a substitute. “He bore our sins in His own Body on the Cross.” (1Pet. 2:29). What did Paul say must happen because Christ is the one mediator? “Supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men” (1Tim 2:1-5). Thus we are all called to be co-redeemers. [See *Christ In Eclipse

, Frank Sheed, Sheed & Ward, 1978, p 105-108).

Paul has restated the problem of suffering – how not to waste it but how to make use of it. Hebrews tells us that Jesus entered heaven on our behalf (9:24), and Paul explains (Rom 8:34) that He is at the right hand of the Father, “interceding for us,” pleading with God for us; and “He holds His priesthood permanently.” (Heb 7:24). That is precisely why His continuing priesthood breaks through to our altars at every Holy Sacrifice of the Mass – in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Bride, His Church.

I agree with some of the things you said above, albeit from a different light. We do have to continue our obedience to God’s commands until the day we die for this is what the doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” means. Those who are truly saved because of God’s sovereign grace from the beginning shall persevere until the end of their lives. To work out one’s salvation is to continually think of it, to consider it and walk in it.

 

[Abu]

Anyone who thinks that no one can be saved who does not know Christ explicitly, does not know His teaching.

We’ve seen that the unlearned and unstable distort the Scriptures to their own destruction, and that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, yet we have these errors. Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." We have baptism of desire and implicit faith and know from His Catholic Church that salvation is possible if they try to do what is right and try to please God. This is much more difficult without His truths, especially for non-Christians.

We offer Christ and His Church to all so that they can better know what to believe and how to live – that is essential. The onslaught on reason and on faith and morals today, shows how much the world needs Christ’s truths through His Church.

 

[Bengoshi]

Anyone who thinks that no one can be saved who does not know Christ explicitly, does not know His teaching.

We’ve seen that the unlearned and unstable distort the Scriptures to their own destruction, and that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, yet we have these errors. Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." We have baptism of desire and implicit faith and know from His Catholic Church that salvation is possible if they try to do what is right and try to please God. This is much more difficult without His truths, especially for non-Christians.

We offer Christ and His Church to all so that they can better know what to believe and how to live – that is essential. The onslaught on reason and on faith and morals today, shows how much the world needs Christ’s truths through His Church.

I did not say in the absolute that all those who do not know Christ cannot be saved. Those who rejected Christ in spite of hearing or knowing about Him cannot be saved. Please read again the following statement below:

The truth is, there are no innocent people. The Bible teaches that we are all imperfect, selfish, weak, sinful, rebellious, and spiritually unclean. We are all dead in our sins and deserving of God’s wrath (Romans 3:9-20; Ephesians 2:1-10).

The Bible makes it clear that through nature and conscience each person has some knowledge about God and sin for which he is accountable. (Read Romans 1:18-2:16 and Psalm 19:1.) Thus, everyone really knows, if he is honest, that God exists and that to ignore Him has serious consequences. Further, the Bible teaches in the passage in Romans that God will judge us by the light we have received.

Even primitive societies have a concept of right and wrong, and those people know that they do not always measure up to even their own standards. One does not go to hell because he has not heard about Jesus, but because he: (a) is a sinner and falls short of God’s standard, and (b) he thumbs his nose at the God he knows exists.

God’s wrath is very severe toward anyone who continually rebells against Him (Nahum 1:2-6, Psalm 90:7-8). Indeed, rejecting God in any of His Trinitarian persons (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit) condemns one to hell. Rejecting God the Father—Romans 1:18-32. Rejecting Jesus—John 3:36; John 8:24. Rejecting the Holy Spirit—Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-29.

But the Bible also teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)! And it implies that whoever seeks after God earnestly will find him (Deuteronomy 4:29; Psalm 86:5; Proverbs 8:17; Jeremiah 29:13; Matthew 7:7-8). God is fair as well as just. We are confident, for example, that the Old Testament patriarchs who lived by faith before Jesus’ earthly ministry, are in heaven. So certainly some people have gotten to heaven without knowing Jesus in the personal way that the New Testament speaks of. Ultimately only God can judge as only He knows the individual’s heart. We hold out hope that for those who have not heard but have not rejected God, those have been misinformed, or those who are unable to understand (children, mentally ill, etc) may be pardoned by a just God.

Certainly, the Bible does not teach “universalism.” Universalism is the idea that everyone gets to heaven.

The Bible clearly teaches that the only certain way to heaven is through Jesus (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). We are confident that God will not hold anyone accountable for any knowledge he did not receive. At the same time, the Bible emphatically states that Christ is the only sure way to salvation. Anyone who has heard of the saving grace of Jesus, and rejects it, would be thumbing his nose at God (John 3:36).

To reject Jesus is a serious matter. It is tantamount to refusing God’s offer of reconcilation to sinful man. As R.C. Sproul points out, those who have heard and reject Christ face double jeopardy. That is to say, you would be guilty by your sinful nature and guilty also for having rejected God’s son. Thus “religion” without Christ does not redeem people but may add to their ultimate guilt.

 

[inkaneer]

In the Bible, in Acts 4:5-12,

…It is Jesus in whom salvation is found. Not in any church, Catholic, Protestant, or others. Churches are all man-made, but the Scripture is God breathed. I’ll put my faith in Scripture before I will put it in any doctrine.

I think that the Catholic church has changed their minds on things over the years on several issues. I was born, raised, and practiced Catholicism well for almost 40 years, and I do have issues with that, too.

How about the church that Jesus established? You know the one that Jesus spoke abouth in Mt 16:18 that the forces of hell would never overcome and the one that He would remain with until the end of the Age? Is that man made too? I have been Catholic for 65 years and I know that Catholicism has never “changed their minds” on any doctrine of faith EVER. You have been poorly catechized that is why you will fall for any slick talking protestant preacher who comes along.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyivAndrew
O.K. Well let’s be blunt then. You, a sola scriptura evangelical, obviously believe purgatory (Catholic) or a "purging’ after death (Orthodox) to be non-Biblical, so a Jewish person like ChosenPeople who posted on this thread in your evangelical view is damned to Hell if he doesn’t accept Jesus as Lord and Savior before his death, and all those millions of Jews, children, grandparents, who perished in the Shoah in death camps like Sobibor, Treblinka, etc. and have died are in hell too if they did not accept Jesus as lord and savior before their extermination, is that correct, because they obviously knew of Jesus as Jews as you state?

And some of the wonderful Jewish coverts to Catholicism on CAF we have: if their Jewish parents don’t become Christians and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior these parents too are most certainly damned to Hell in your view, no ifs, ands, or buts, correct?

Exactly! I know it sounds harsh, but it is the Truth as taught by Jesus Christ and the apostles. For if it is possible to be saved without having faith in Christ, especially, for those who actually know about Him, then Jesus died for nothing. So if ChosenPeople will continue to reject Jesus as the proimised Messiah in whom salvation is given by grace, then, sad to say, he will most definitely go to Hell. Remember, it is the unbelieving Jews who had Jesus crucified.

Harsh is just the start of it. Just in case you did not realize it, you are flirting with damnation. You are using YOUR interpretation of the scriptures which you admit is harsh to damn people to hell. Maybe you should look at Matthew 7:1.2 which says:

“1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” [Mt 7:1,2]

Again, Jesus said:

“21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” [Mt 7:21]

You are very much like the Pharisees against whom Jesus spoke the two parables in Matthew 21:28-45.

The message is clear. You judge others harshly so you will be judged harshly also. A very wise old priest told me something when I was young that has stuck with me ever since. You won’t find this specifically stated in any Church doctrine but the idea is worth thinking about. He said there were two doors to heaven. One door is the door of God’s justice. This is the door that Jesus entered when He ascended to the Father. Jesus and only Jesus is capable of meeting the criteria of God’s justice. The other door is the door of God’s mercy. This is the door that we sinners will enter. For to those who show mercy to others will be shown mercy by God:

“7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.” [Mt 5:7]

I do hope you reconsider your harsh judgement of Jews because invinceable ignorance, by which it is possible that even you may enter heaven, is not limited to non Catholic Christians.

 

[paseshnik]

Thank you very much for your replies…!

I think I am having this trouble because of the forceful language that is used to define and defend this dogma in the pre-Vatican II Church. It doesn’t seem that the current teaching of the Church is a “development” of the dogma, but rather a renunciation of it. As in the words of my priest: “They don’t believe that anymore.” Seems my priest believes that the dogma is actually reversed, and he’s fine with that.

Here’s an example of the “forceful” pre-VII language that I’m talking about. (Also, the following even seems to veto the idea of further developments of dogma, as I understand it.) Anyway, here’s the quote:

*Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: *“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding. The only meaning of the dogma Outside the Church there is no salvation is that which holy Mother Church has once declared in Her definitions. That meaning is that all who die without the Catholic Faith or outside the Church or in a non-Catholic religion cannot be saved.”

I showed my priest this quote (and several other quotes as well), but his response is that I have to trust the Church’s interpretation of these dogmas and not my own. I’m really struggling with putting my faith into something that doesn’t make any sense to me… that in fact seems to contradict itself. This is why I left the Baptists - because it didn’t make sense to me.

Sorry - I’m not trying to be difficult - it just comes naturally…

The main reason for your confusion is that you are looking to a denomination for your answers. The Baptists are even more legalistic than the Catholics. They both and other religions too, make up their own rules aside from Scripture. I am not a literalist, but as soon as I see a hint of man made rules a red flag goes up. The Catholics say if you die in a state of mortal sin you cannot go to heaven. Whether our sin is small or big, mortal or venial, we cannot go to heaven unless we have accepted Jesus as our Saviour. We are all sinners and even one little sin is enough to keep us out of heaven because we must be perfect as God is perfect and that is impossible without the Saving Grace of Jesus. So it doesn’t matter if it is mortal or venial it is all sin. What exactly is the church? It is an assembly of people who follow Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. It is not whether you are Catholic, Methodist, Jehovah Witnes, or Amish. People need to start opening their eyes and not be led to the slaughter by the evil one who puts blinders on our eyes. I hope this opens your eyes.

 

[Abu]

paseshnik
even one little sin is enough to keep us out of heaven because we must be perfect as God is perfect and that is impossible without the Saving Grace of Jesus. So it doesn’t matter if it is mortal or venial it is all sin. What exactly is the church? It is an assembly of people who follow Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. It is not whether you are Catholic, Methodist, Jehovah Witnes, or Amish.

You are confused, wow! Learn from the Sacred Scriptures given to us, as the inspired Word of God by Christ’s Catholic Church.

Christ’s Church is defined by Him, not you – Christ built His Church on Peter. It is fantasy to try to separate Christ from His Church. From that all error springs. His Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16).

St Peter warns that “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.” (2 Pet:1).

As Jesus had commanded: “Going therefore, teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you” (Mt 28:19). Everything of grace and goodness is through His Church.

The reason for the confusion over the seriousness of venial and mortal sin is the lack of assent to the Magisterium established by Christ and, for some, not having the complete Bible. The Book of Machabees teaches that “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Mac 12:46)

But the NT has: “Not all sin is deadly.” (1 Jn 5:17), and “Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” (Rev 21:27). So what is missing in the confusion is the doctrine of Purgatory, which is why Catholics pray for the departed, as commanded in the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[anthony022071]

Anyone who thinks that no one can be saved who does not know Christ explicitly, does not know His teaching.

God will not condemn those who have never heard the gospel preached to them or who
because of invincible ignorance or honest doubt have not been convinced by the gospel. That would be unjust. God condemns those who reject him out of hard-heartedness.
Saint Paul said in the letter to the Romans that the heathens will be judged according to their concience. Anyone who follows the commandments of God may be saved,even if they have not been brought to faith. Those who follow the commandments but do not yet believe in Jesus show that their hearts are already with God.

 

[QuickCat]

Anyone who thinks that no one can be saved who does not know Christ explicitly, does not know His teaching.

We’ve seen that the unlearned and unstable distort the Scriptures to their own destruction, and that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, yet we have these errors. Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." We have baptism of desire and implicit faith and know from His Catholic Church that salvation is possible if they try to do what is right and try to please God. This is much more difficult without His truths, especially for non-Christians.

We offer Christ and His Church to all so that they can better know what to believe and how to live – that is essential. The onslaught on reason and on faith and morals today, shows how much the world needs Christ’s truths through His Church.

You present a “works/religion” system for salvation. Therefore, you present a false gospel. Once a person is saved, by believing on the LORD Jesus Christ, he is SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of his body [Eph. 1:13]. The Holy Spirit also baptizes him into the Body of Christ. The primary roll of the church is to train believers into being ambassadors for the LORD Jesus Christ so that they can “do the work of the ministry.”

 

[anthony022071]

You present a “works/religion” system for salvation. Therefore, you present a false gospel. Once a person is saved, by believing on the LORD Jesus Christ, he is SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption of his body [Eph. 1:13]. The Holy Spirit also baptizes him into the Body of Christ. The primary roll of the church is to train believers into being ambassadors for the LORD Jesus Christ so that they can “do the work of the ministry.”

Jesus commanded us to do good works. That is what the moral commandments are,and they lead to salvation,as scripture says. When Jesus was questioned by a scribe as to what is necessary for eternal life,Jesus referred him to the commandments.