Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[inkaneer]

I think we firmly agree on the modern interpretation of no salvation outside the Catholic Church. It can include Baptized Christians who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith. This would include Protestants. Obviously, the current Catechism would reflect the modern interpretation. However, the quote below is from the Council of Florence in 1442. It is very obvious that the meaning of no salvation outside the Catholic Church, meant being a member of the physical church and particpating in the sacraments.

The modern interpretation seems to contradict the earlier interpretation. The original question on this thread was asking how this teaching could be dogmatic and infallible on the one hand, and on the other hand, have a modern interpretation that contradicts the earlier interpretation.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church. (Council of Florence session 11 - February 4, 1442"

I don’t see any contradiction. Here is why. Let’s not forget that the Council of Basle/Ferra/Florence occurred in 1431-1445 and was concerned with healing of the Eastern Schism which it accomplished but only temporarily. Also one must be careful with the council of Florence as not all of the results of the council are considered infallible. For instance in the same session as the above quote is taken [11th session Feb, 1442] There is also a listing of the canonical books of the Bible. However, it is the council of Trent in 1547 that is listed as the infallible formal definition of the biblical canon and not the council of Florence even though the canonical lists are identical. Why? Good question. Here is my answer. The council was specifically directed towards those Apostolic churches which were previously in schism and were now re-aligning themselves with Rome in the fifteenth century [1400-1499]. The particular session in question, SESSION 11 of February 4, 1442 that the quote is taken from, is entitled *Bull of union with the Copts * and addresses specific issues between the Coptic church and Rome. A Bull is nothing more than a letter and gets its name from the stamp that is impressed on the sealing wax. That stamp is called, in Latin, a bulla. So the quotation cited is contained in a letter to the Coptic Church and therefore applies only to the Coptic Church and is not to be applied ‘across the board’ to everyone. As such, since it is not directed to the universal church session11 of 1442 is not infallible teaching. And what appears to be a contradiction is no contradiction at all.

 

[mpjw2]

Paul…

first let me thank you for your post in my “I am saved”
as you seen there is confusion on what being saved means

to address your response here to me

mpjw2
Paul, do you actually believe what I just quoted you?

God is giving you a choice between heaven or hell?

Absolutely. This choice is fundamental to Catholic theology.all christians too or should be Every man has free will. He can decide to align that will with God’s will for him, manifested by loving God and Neighbor as Jesus taught, or we can choose to go our own way

ok …so far so good …I am with you

That is the fundamental choice that leads to heaven or hell.

I can not agree

if we choose to **go our own way **…
…I agree we will be damned in hell for eternity unless we come back to God before we die

However, I believe if we only choose only to love God and Neighbor that in itself will not get us to heaven.

You see, to follow Jesus is to become the servant of all. Satan would rather be the leader in hell than a servant in heaven.

Agree 100%

You claim you want to go to heaven.

who doesn’t …Of course I look forward to heaven but I am in no rush to get there
there is too much work to do here for God’s kingdom

I gave you a little taste on what God is doing in my last post to you.

Are you willing to pay the price of admission?

what price are you talking about?

are these just empty words

What empty words do you believe I am giving you?

He’s giving us that choice because he loves us without bounds and wants us to love him back unconditionally.

agree 100%

If you were told that the only way to go to heaven was to become Catholic would you do it,

***If ***I was told by God in the bible…His word…absolutely:thumbsup:

In order to go to heaven, you must be Catholic

I will be the first at the front door in a heart beat:thumbsup:

would you be too proud or too independent to do so

No way…I am listening to God…again if He said the above
the choice would be easy for me to make

God can do whatever he wants but we believe he wants us to follow him of our own free will, not because we are forced to like a robot. That’s why he gave us free will.

.
agree 100%

Do you honestly think a just God would create people who never had a chance at heaven?

wow powerful question.
I can not answer that but only with thoughtful questions…

We do believe in hell right?
there are people in hell for eternity right now…you believe that too right?

All those are in hell because they nade a wrong choice in there life…agree?

I believe all had a chance in their life to make the right choice…but chose not to …agree?

here is the main question

Did God create al those people in hell fully aware they would not make the right choice,? thereby He had to punish them for eternity…I believe yes He did …do you?​

Catholics understand that it is God who will judge our hearts based on our actions.

I am aware

We do not try to play God by judging ourselves.

I know you believe you are judging yourself

We therefore can not honestly answer whether we will go to heaven or hell

.
of course you can not because you are not the judge…but…

We just do our best to do our job, loving God and Neighbor, and let God do his.

and you do a wonderful job at that…Praise God

 

[mpjw2]

Paul after all you said I sincerely do not understand something…

take a deep breath, put aside all you read about my post and just follow along with me here

Paul I appreciate your heart and other catholics for reaching out to me to come home to the one true church.

In no way do wish you to leave the Catholic Church…I ask you to believe me on that

I am sure you do everything you possibly can to follow Jesus Christ

Paul I am with you 100% on that…doing the will of God, loving God, loving neighbor,
Paul you do not have to be told to do these things, they come naturally because you love God right?

and when you love neighbor you see God move in people more and more each day
which is a wonderful experience

God loves you and I am sure is proud of everything you do.
but what you do for Him and/or what I do for Him or anyone else is not going to get us to heaven

Paul I can relate to doing God’s will

I wish everyone the movement of God I experienced yesterday

I prayed for a server yesterday who poured her heart out to my wife and daughter about her fears of losing her job and the same for her coworkers because of a certain mean general manager, she was almost in tears as she shared her deepest concerns

Is what I did yesterday going to get me to heaven?
absolutely not

God wants us to do good, do not misunderstand me.
And my primary focus is not what happens when I die

My primary focus is the lost world who are headed for hell and are not aware of it.
and getting the good news out

I chat on a random chat site and witness…it saddens me at the number of times good people do not believe and/or cuss Jesus Christ

I believe there are a lot of good do-ers spending eternity in hell because they made the wrong choice

I believe there are a lot of murderers, rapists, thiefs in spending etrnity in heaven because they made the right choice

Paul you even said God has given you the choice of heaven or hell

If you believe that with all your heart then why do you believe

We therefore *can not honestly answer whether we will go to heaven *or hell

Paul I am sorry to be blunt

you asked me

If you were told that the only way to go to heaven was to become Catholic would you do it,

In due respect

If God told you…

"Paul I love you with all my heart.
I noticed you doing your best to keep my 10 commandments
I can assure when you have broken one of my commandments and confessed to me, I forgiven you and I remember them no more
I also see how much you love your neighbor out of your love you have for me
Paul you would not do these tings if you did not first have faith and belief and trust in me and my son Jesus.

Because of your faith, I like to give you a gift which you can cherish and hold onto for the rest of your life"

Paul…as God extends His hand to you holding the gift He desires to give you…

My question to you is

Do you accept God’s gift now?

or

refuse God’s gift now and accept His gift after you die

the choice is yours

Oh by the way,

His gift is His promise to you of eternal life

God bless

mpjw

 

[banjo]

I think we firmly agree on the modern interpretation of no salvation outside the Catholic Church. It can include Baptized Christians who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith. This would include Protestants. Obviously, the current Catechism would reflect the modern interpretation. However, the quote below is from the Council of Florence in 1442. It is very obvious that the meaning of no salvation outside the Catholic Church, meant being a member of the physical church and particpating in the sacraments.

The modern interpretation seems to contradict the earlier interpretation. The original question on this thread was asking how this teaching could be dogmatic and infallible on the one hand, and on the other hand, have a modern interpretation that contradicts the earlier interpretation.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church. (Council of Florence session 11 - February 4, 1442"

EDWARD,

This site may be helpful to you. Use “find” on your toolbar to locate Eugene IV for the information in this article about Cantate Domino.
ewtn.com/library/answers/extreccl.htm

There is also a rather lengthy article written by Fr. William Most at the following site:
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/OUTSID.TXT

 

[paul_c]

Paul after all you said I sincerely do not understand something…

take a deep breath, put aside all you read about my post and just follow along with me here

Paul I appreciate your heart and other catholics for reaching out to me to come home to the one true church.

In no way do wish you to leave the Catholic Church…I ask you to believe me on that

I am sure you do everything you possibly can to follow Jesus Christ

Paul I am with you 100% on that…doing the will of God, loving God, loving neighbor,
Paul you do not have to be told to do these things, they come naturally because you love God right?

and when you love neighbor you see God move in people more and more each day
which is a wonderful experience

God loves you and I am sure is proud of everything you do.
but what you do for Him and/or what I do for Him or anyone else is not going to get us to heaven

Paul I can relate to doing God’s will

I wish everyone the movement of God I experienced yesterday

I prayed for a server yesterday who poured her heart out to my wife and daughter about her fears of losing her job and the same for her coworkers because of a certain mean general manager, she was almost in tears as she shared her deepest concerns

Is what I did yesterday going to get me to heaven?
absolutely not

God wants us to do good, do not misunderstand me.
And my primary focus is not what happens when I die

My primary focus is the lost world who are headed for hell and are not aware of it.
and getting the good news out

I chat on a random chat site and witness…it saddens me at the number of times good people do not believe and/or cuss Jesus Christ

I believe there are a lot of good do-ers spending eternity in hell because they made the wrong choice

I believe there are a lot of murderers, rapists, thiefs in spending etrnity in heaven because they made the right choice

Paul you even said God has given you the choice of heaven or hell

If you believe that with all your heart then why do you believe

Paul I am sorry to be blunt

you asked me

In due respect

If God told you…

Paul…as God extends His hand to you holding the gift He desires to give you…

My question to you is

Do you accept God’s gift now?

or

refuse God’s gift now and accept His gift after you die

the choice is yours

Oh by the way,

His gift is His promise to you of eternal life

God bless

mpjw

MPJW,
Unfortunately, you still don’t get it. God gives you everything. He gave you life, your skills, your free will, your intellect, your conscience, and most of all, his Son to lead you back to him. And that Son, Jesus founded the Catholic Church to be his instrument in this, which he commissioned in Matthew 28:18-20 and he put St. peter in charge of that, in Matthew 16: 16-19 and reiterated after the resurrection in John 21, where he is put in charge of Jesus’ sheep…

This who idea you relate above, that Jesus promised eternal life, is a half truth. Sure he promised eternal life, IF you follow him. Read Matthew 18. He tells the man who asked him what it took to gain eternal life. He was told to follow the Commandments and to give up everything and follow him…

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Robert…

If I were to hear you say…

“I am in a state of grace and I am in the right relationship with God”

tells me that you probably just went to confession and that should you die right now you will go to heaven …if not right away, you will go to purgatory first

Do you agree?

OK.

ok? is that a yes or no?
are you in agreement with me?

But just understand when you are talking with a Catholic and you use your phrase “I am saved” we hear a bit of presumption in it and it’s kind of like fingers on a blackboard. (Did I just date myself here?)

Hey I am 54 lol

I know about presumption…I am here try and fight through the sin of “preseumption”

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position.

thank you for your time as well

What it appears like you are saying is that you have what amounts to a moral certainty that if you continue to live your life in a way that Christ has commanded us to live, continue to repent and confess your sins when you err (as we all do certainly)

right on point Robert

then you believe (and hope) that you will be in Heaven when you die.

here is where the presumption occurs

I believe God in His word is telling all His faithful Christian children, including all catholics that we do not have to have hope…

We can believe and be assured/guarateed of our salvation in heaven

it is hard to ignore a guarantee expressed in Ephesians 1:7-14

This is essentially what Catholics believe when they are in a state of grace.

Robert, does that mean when you are in a state of grace do you…

believe
or
hope

you get to heaven?

You do realize, however, that **this position is quite removed **from the current evangelical trend of OSAS, correct?

yes I do, unfortunately I believe it is the one of the reasons why I am having a hard time communicating myself

So, when you tell someone who comes from that tradition “I am saved” they will attach a very different meaning to your words.

yes I know

Perhaps “getting right with God” is a better (albeit more ecumenical) declaration.

does using “getting right with God” mean you are assured of your salvation?
and if yes and if you knew you would die tonight,
how would you get right with God?

And I do not believe that the only way anyone can achieve being in a state of grace is if
they were catholic.

I do not believe this either. But I do think that the sacramental life in the Catholic Church is the best way to obtain the graces necessary to maintain that right relationship with God.

Of course you do …otherwise you would not be a faithful Catholic as you are,… May God keep you strong in your faith

Thanks, but I also think it’s the best way for you and non-Catholics too. That’s why I urge people to be open to the possibility of becoming a Catholic Christian. The sacramental life is the best way to stay close to God and, thereby, in a state of grace.

I appreciate that you want what you believe is the best for everyone

God bless you:thumbsup:

Well now, here is a subject we disagree on [salvation for non-christians]

A tricky question. What about those who, despite our best efforts, do not hear and receive the word of God,…

As I recently posted man’s sin has separated us from God

Just because one has not heard the good news of the saving grace of God by the blood of Jesus, does not change the fact they are as much sinners as you and I and for their sin they will be punished for etenity in hell

I do not know about you but…

Do you really believe God will forgive all those murderers , thiefs, liars, adulterers, false God worshipers of the world because they claim they have not heard.

Romans 1 states no man is without excuse.

that is why we have missionaries who go to foreign lands to spread the good news​

…no one knows the decision one will make in their dying breath when they still have a chance to achieve grace and be in the right relationship with God.

God gives us all sufficient initial grace to say “yes” to HIm. And I’m sure God knows who says “yes” and who says “no” in their hearts. That’s what’s important. Not our external declarations, but our internal responses.

God knows everything I agree

Somtimes it is good to share those internal responses so that those who are in the process of seeking may understand a little better

God bless

mpjw

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by mpjw2
by the way I am curious,

Since I am not a practicing catholic, does anyone believe that the only way for me to enter heaven is to come back to the catholic church?

Yes David; God, Saint Paul me and every informed practicing Catholic on the planet.

*Phil. 2:12 “12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Rom. 6: 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16* Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rom.6:9 and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mt.7: 21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Sir.24:22 “Whoever obeys me will not be put to shame, and those who work with my help will not sin."

One Church

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Acts.20:28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church [SINGULAR] of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. “

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [singular] 19 I God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 10: "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, [chosen by God for His CC] who have tasted the heavenly gift, [Eucharist] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [Confirmed in the Catholic Faith] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [By those empowered by God to understand and share His Word; His CC] if ***they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. ***

**John.20 Verses 20 to 23 **" When he had said this, he [Jesus] showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW,
Unfortunately, you still don’t get it.

I do not get it?

God gives you everything.

amen I believe that, do you?

God has given me eternal life.

let me say that back to you…

Paul God gives you everything…including eternal life

do you believe it?

He gave you life, your skills, your free will, your intellect, your conscience, and most of all, his Son to lead you back to him.

agree…by the way from that last comment, “lead you back to him”,

Do you believe I am separated from God right now?

And that Son, Jesus founded the Catholic Church to be his instrument in this, which he commissioned in Matthew 28:18-20 and he put St. peter in charge of that, in Matthew 16: 16-19 and reiterated after the resurrection in John 21, where he is put in charge of Jesus’ sheep…

The Catholic Churches interpertation of scripture.

I do not believe Peter is the rock and the first pope etc…

by the way do you believe I will go to hell because I do not believe that?

This who idea you relate above, that Jesus promised eternal life, is a half truth.

true…God will not force salvation onto anyone who denies His gift.

that is why there are people in hell.

Sure he promised eternal life, IF you follow him.

Paul you tell me you follow Him

I am asking you

heaven is a place we all want to go right?

in order for me to get to heaven you tell me to follow Jesus , right?

my last queston is

If I follow Him like you suggest and I get to the end of the road (death)
will I be in heaven for sure?

if you say yes then I have more questions

since all you are saying is

We therefore can not honestly answer whether we will go to heaven or hell

tells me you are not sure you are on the right road

Read Matthew 18. He tells the man who asked him what it took to gain eternal life. He was told to follow the Commandments and*** to give up everything*** and follow him…

Ok Paul now if you took that literally, in order to get to heaven all of us would be living on the streets because we all have given up everything.

and if we held on to our posessions we will go to hell.

Have you given up all you have?

So you tell me what that verse is telling you

God bless Paul

 

[paul_c]

MPJW,
you ask whether I think you are separated from God? Who am I to judge? But you do admit to being separated from the Catholic Church, which is the body of Christ so there should be some concern on your part. I think this is the case, because you are incessantly asking that question. You notice that every Catholic on this board have answered you in the same way. We don’t know but we’re worried about you…

Look, you can’t earn your way into heaven. Its not a point system. Nor can you get there by faith alone. You need to get in a state of sacramental grace and you need to love God and others unconditionally to stay there.

When the Catholic Church teaches that you must give up your life to save it, it means you must put others and God first in your life. There have been Saints that have been kings and saints that have been paupers so its not strictly about economics. Its about how you use what you have…If you use it for the benefit of others, you are on the right path. If you use it selfishly, you are on the road to condemnation.

 

[Des]

Matthew…be careful what you ask for…you might receive it:thumbsup:

2 Tim 3:

15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

mpjw, you emphasized the word ‘All’ there as if it helps you out. It does not. ‘All’ when said here, would at the most mean every writings at that moment, that they considered Scripture. You also have to understand that the ‘Scriptures’ in context here, were most likely the Old Testament writings since those are the ones Timothy learned from infancy.
And something being useful doesn’t prove that it’s a final authority for anything since we can apply this verse to our Priests as well for example since they use it for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

Let me give you another scenario

lets say I am a repeated traffic offender and I avoided paying tickets for a long time

then one day I was caught and had to go to trial

On the day of my trial I, having countless number of unpaid tickets, am standing before the judge …

let’s say you are the judge

If I said to you,

What would you as judge be your response?

I would say “But Uncle, if you had told me where to pay for these tickets, I’d have gladly done so.”

4 who…God… **desires all men to be saved **and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and **one Mediator **between God and men

But you see, this is what conflicts with your belief. If God desired all men to be saved, He wouldn’t reveal himself to some while withholding Himself from others who He would then cast off to Hell. He’d give us ALL a chance for that. So those that know little will be judged ONLY for how much they were given and written in their hearts.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I agree with what everyone says. To also re-state what has been said. It is true there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but it does not mean that our separated brothers and sisters, as well as everyone in the world, can not be saved. If some one seeks the fullness of truth found in Jesus Christ they will not help but end up in the Catholic Church. Even if someone were not to find the fullness of the truth in the Catholic Church, for what ever circumstances or reasons, does not mean they can not find the truth. Have some of the truth can and does lead people to Christ and to salvation. It maybe harder, but not impossible.

So what does it mean for all of us? Being that we have the full of truth in our faith, we are to seek out and teach all those that do not have the fullness of truth. That is our mission set forth by Jesus:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:19-20

So let us all spread the fullness of truth that is Jesus Christ.

I will be praying for you.

I believe all catholics should not only lead those to Christ but to his church that IS the pillar and foundation of all truth.
Good post jeff…

Matthew

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Matthew…be careful what you ask for…you might receive it:thumbsup:

2 Tim 3:

15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Matthew I for one believe every word of this verse.

one reason I agree

they may believe that in their heart, but I am not in a position to judge whether they are in fact or not

agree 100%

again then tell me what that one truth is Matthew

is there or isnt there salvation outside the Catholic Church

that is the subject of the OP

all catholics are welcoming me home to the one true church

well I believe I am saved outside the Catholic Church

**Do you believe I am lying to myself?

Do you believe if I die outside the Catholic Church I can’t get to heaven?**

You are so bold to claim truth can only be found one place…

If you were to say truth can be found in Jesus Christ, I would 100% agree with you

but you say

Sorry I disagree

I wonder…

**Do you believe Billy Graham, a non catholic, is destined for hell?

If Rev. Graham posted on here, what would you say to him?**

God bless,

mpjw

Look mpjw, A great deal of information from many posters have been given to you on this thread. I find you to be a very confused person… It all seems to be about how you can be saved and so much about salvation.
If you truly what to find the truth you should know by now where to find it.
So far i have very little idea what you believe.
I’ve found the truth in the catholic church and i don’t care what billy graham believes!
The mind set of sola striptura has lead many people astray thanks to the reformation!
Authority has always been a BIG problem for protestants. They read the bible and interpret for themselves what truths they want to believe and discard the rest.
What they believe is their own truth and their own opinion.
I hope the holy spirit will guide you and others to the church that Christ himself founded.

Matthew

 

[Tomb54]

Just to clarify, Christ has one catholic (universal) Church, which includes all Christian churches (congregations, denominations) around the world.

Then this church is one church and it must have complete unity in its’ believes. Where is it? If it is all those Christan Churches that you speak of that is this one universal church and all those congregations and denominations are part of it then this church you talk about is contradictive to itself and in chaos in it’s beliefs. Not sure the Holy Spirit is the spirit of chaos and Jesus said the gate of hell would not prevail against His church and I do not believe His church would have contradicting beliefs because if it did the gate of hell would have prevailed against it so this conglomeration of churches of various believes can’t be His church.

 

[mpjw2]

So far i have very little idea what you believe.

Matthew and all

thank you so much for your time and efforts to share your heart with me

May i offer my most sincere apologies however.

I first posted on this thread on the 5th of May.

I realize now that certains terms I use which mean something to me may have a totally different meaning to you.

I started another thread within this forum and I found a way to communicate with catholics in a way that we understand each other better

I am sorry it has been 2 weeks and I failed to communicate to you what I believe.

If you are at all interested, it only took 25 posts to connect with other catholics in the following thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=458823

It is my hope and prayer that we can continue our discussion here after you have read the other thread and know exactly what I believe and why I am here

Dear God I pray… after reading may they realize why I am here and what I believe

God bless all of you

mpjw

 

[diggerdomer]

Read the two statements. You don’t see at least an apparent contradiction? The Council of Florence stated explicitly that you must participate in the Church sacraments. You need to be inside the physical bounds of the Catholic Church to do this.

Even if a Protestant church practiced the sacraments of Reconciliation or concecrating the Eucharist, the Catholic Church would not recoginize this as valid. Therefore, the only way to participate in the sacraments, would be to be a member in the actual Church.

Nope, I don’t see a contradiction. If the Church did contradict Herself…well, then, I wouldn’t believe in the Church. I think your key word is “apparent”. I understand how some can see Church teaching as contradictory. I don’t. “Difficult” and “contradictory” are often related but distinct.

 

[diggerdomer]

Abu,

You or anyone else, has still has not answered my question. That Council of Florence quote said nothing about invincible ignorance. It said you much be in the Catholic Church and receiving the sacraments. The only way to do this is be a physical member of the Church. This would preclude all these invincibly ignorant Protesatants

I don’t need to hear more quotes from church fathers and Catholic apologists. This concil of Florence quote is an official council statment by the Catholic Church. If you compare this statment with the current interpretation, it doesn’t appear to be consistent.

You need to continue learning and growing with the Church subsequent to the Council of Florence. The Church did not reach the fullness of truth with that Council. There are 600+ years of teaching and tradition following that Council that are part of the Catholic faith.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all,

Since doing the will of God, loving Him and neighbor are the primary focus of catholics,

I invite all to post a personal story on how God had placed you at the right place at the right time and you shown another person Godly love when they were in need.

I look forward to see what god in doing in your life

God bless you

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=459514

 

[Abu]

EDWARDJL
As shown by inkaneer and diggerdomer you must know the historical context of a decree or teaching to be able to interpret it with the mind of the Church. In trying to interpret papal documents of an earlier age, a common error is to fail to appreciate the different historical facts which were being addressed – thus leading to false conclusions of “contradictions” between them and later teaching.

Re the Council of Florence: Decree for the Jacobites , 1442:
“….we can see from the vehemence of Patristic attacks on heretics, e.g., St. Cyprian “Ad Demetrianum,” that the Fathers have in mind those who are in bad faith, who culpably reject the Church. They do not seem to think of those who in-culpably fail to find the Church. So from this point on, it becomes largely a question not of doctrine but of objective fact: how many are culpable? Further, this statement was made in 1442, before the 1492 discovery that there was a whole other world. The writers thought that the Gospel had actually reached every creature – it had not – and supposed, as we said, bad faith on the part of those who rejected it.” [Fr William Most, *Our Father’s Plan, Trinity Communications, 1988, p 248].

 

[Bengoshi]

Then this church is one church and it must have complete unity in its’ believes. Where is it? If it is all those Christan Churches that you speak of that is this one universal church and all those congregations and denominations are part of it then this church you talk about is contradictive to itself and in chaos in it’s beliefs. Not sure the Holy Spirit is the spirit of chaos and Jesus said the gate of hell would not prevail against His church and I do not believe His church would have contradicting beliefs because if it did the gate of hell would have prevailed against it so this conglomeration of churches of various believes can’t be His church.

First of all, despite the apparent division in the Protestant churches, we still consider ourselves brethren, regardless of denomination. It is alright to differ in the non-essentials, those which God did not fully reveal to us completely (Deut. 29:29).

Second, As to the gates of hell, do gates move? No they don’t. It is the church who moves. The gates of hell are the stronghold of the enemy in a given place or person, which the church, having the commission to GO and Make Disciples, also has the duty to topple. This is what Jesus meant when He said that “the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” It is not the gates which attack the church but the other way around.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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