Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Des]

I suppose you really didn’t get my point.

Let me explain in simplified terms:

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.
2. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel? However, it is not unfair because in the first place, salvation is a gift which we do not deserve. Hence, it cannot be demanded. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.

Not likely. Here you have God who tells us that He loves us sooooooooo much, that He came down from Heaven, was humbled and abused to save us from damnation. Then on the other side, you’re telling us this same God, says “Too bad for all of you who never had a chance to hear me but to the raging inferno you will go”.

This is not the compassionate God of the Bible where he preaches how He loved us so much on one hand, yet on the other, He could care less about the others who never got that chance to know Him. So I have no choice but to totally disagree with you on this.

 

[EDWARDJL]

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 846-848

I think we firmly agree on the modern interpretation of no salvation outside the Catholic Church. It can include Baptized Christians who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith. This would include Protestants. Obviously, the current Catechism would reflect the modern interpretation. However, the quote below is from the Council of Florence in 1442. It is very obvious that the meaning of no salvation outside the Catholic Church, meant being a member of the physical church and particpating in the sacraments.

The modern interpretation seems to contradict the earlier interpretation. The original question on this thread was asking how this teaching could be dogmatic and infallible on the one hand, and on the other hand, have a modern interpretation that contradicts the earlier interpretation.

"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church. (Council of Florence session 11 - February 4, 1442"

 

[diggerdomer]

I think we firmly agree on the modern interpretation of no salvation outside the Catholic Church. It can include Baptized Christians who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith. This would include Protestants. Obviously, the current Catechism would reflect the modern interpretation. However, the quote below is from the Council of Florence in 1442. It is very obvious that the meaning of no salvation outside the Catholic Church, meant being a member of the physical church and particpating in the sacraments.

The modern interpretation seems to contradict the earlier interpretation. The original question on this thread was asking how this teaching could be dogmatic and infallible on the one hand, and on the other hand, have a modern interpretation that contradicts the earlier interpretation.

**"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments **

contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church. (Council of Florence session 11 - February 4, 1442"

I know many people think that what the Church teaches contradicts something from centuries ago. I guess you have to choose to follow the Church here and now, or the virtual Church from centuries ago.

 

[EDWARDJL]

I know many people think that what the Church teaches contradicts something from centuries ago. I guess you have to choose to follow the Church here and now, or the virtual Church from centuries ago.

It is the same Church. That is a direct quote from an official Church Council. It seems to contradict the current official interpretation in the most current Catechism, paragraph 846-848:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: [161, 1257]

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872]

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” [AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16] [1260]

 

[diggerdomer]

It is the same Church. That is a direct quote from an official Church Council. It seems to contradict the current official interpretation in the most current Catechism, paragraph 846-848:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: [161, 1257]

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872]

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” [AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16] [1260]

Same Church, right. So its teaching does not contradict its Tradition.

 

[EDWARDJL]

Same Church, right. So its teaching does not contradict its Tradition.

Read the two statements. You don’t see at least an apparent contradiction? The Council of Florence stated explicitly that you must participate in the Church sacraments. You need to be inside the physical bounds of the Catholic Church to do this.

Even if a Protestant church practiced the sacraments of Reconciliation or concecrating the Eucharist, the Catholic Church would not recoginize this as valid. Therefore, the only way to participate in the sacraments, would be to be a member in the actual Church.

 

[Bengoshi]

Not likely. Here you have God who tells us that He loves us sooooooooo much, that He came down from Heaven, was humbled and abused to save us from damnation. Then on the other side, you’re telling us this same God, says “Too bad for all of you who never had a chance to hear me but to the raging inferno you will go”.

This is not the compassionate God of the Bible where he preaches how He loved us so much on one hand, yet on the other, He could care less about the others who never got that chance to know Him. So I have no choice but to totally disagree with you on this.

Not so. This is where a lot of people, especially non-Christians, find it so difficult to reconcile.

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.” (Rom. 3:23-25)

God is love. God is loving and he desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). However, obviously, not everyone is saved. A lot of people go to Hell. Why? Because of sin.

God is Just. (Isaiah 5:16) God’s justice demands for the punishment for sin. The Bible in a lot of places describes God as wrathful and vengeful. Now how do we reconcile that with God’s love? Let us assume that I have a child and my child did something wrong. I love my child. Do I desire to punish him? I do not but I have to, hence, I shall will to punish him. It’s the same thing with God. His desire may be different from His will for God has two wills, His revealed will and His secret will (Deut. 29:29). God did not reveal everything to us but only those which we need to know as He deems fit. Read Romans 9 to get a broader picture of this.

God’s Solution. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. Jesus suffered the wrath of God the Father which was supposed to be for us.

The Gospel. Accepting the gospel of God is essential to a person’s salvation (Rom. 10:9-10). What of those who did not know of the gospel?

Romans 8:29-30 says–

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

It is God who calls us to justification, sanctification and glorification.

The problem with most people is that tey only see God from one of His attributes, which is love. But God is not only love. He is also a lot of things. He seriously hates sin. God is a mighty force. God did not change His character from the OT to the NT for God is immutable (unchangeable).

Reflect on this.

 

[Abu]

EDWARDJL
Read the two statements. You don’t see at least an apparent contradiction? The Council of Florence stated explicitly that you must participate in the Church sacraments. You need to be inside the physical bounds of the Catholic Church to do this.

No contradiction, and being “inside the physical bounds of the Catholic Church to do this” has been explicitly denied.
The maxim applies to those who with full knowledge chose to leave Christ’s Church. The Church also teaches Baptism of Desire – the Council of Trent, 1545-1563, defined the dogma of baptism by desire.

Post #49: “Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

“Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).”

This is not to say that the maxim is false. Properly understood, it is quite true. The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. **Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. **Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). [My emphasis].

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Des

When I saw Bengoshi’s post I responded

I am going to assume you missed it

so I will address your concern directly

Bengoshi…

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.

Not likely.

Des, I understand how you feel.

I was there Des with you not long ago and would have agreed with you…not anymore.

Here you have God who tells us that He loves us sooooooooo much, that He came down from Heaven, was humbled and abused to save us from damnation.

yes we all agree with this

Then on the other side, you’re telling us this same God, says “Too bad for all of you who never had a chance to hear me but to the raging inferno you will go”.

Des I know it seems like we are playing God here…it is not the case

God is all loving …However as Bengoshi stated God is also just.

I am sure you will agree God is our eternal Father, right?

well just like our earthly fathers who love us unconditionlly and if you are a father you can understand the following…

Children are loved so much by their father that should they disobey they will get punished.

Why?

Is it because their father stopped loving them?

NO…do you agree?

it is because fathers love their children so much they need to punish and/or discipline them to correct their wrong

We as children, after we receive our punishment, we might think twice before disobeying our parents again…for our punishment may be more than it was the last time

you agree so far?

Let me give you another scenario

lets say I am a repeated traffic offender and I avoided paying tickets for a long time

then one day I was caught and had to go to trial

On the day of my trial I, having countless number of unpaid tickets, am standing before the judge …

let’s say you are the judge

If I said to you,

“your honor, I am sorry for not paying the fine for all those tickets, please forgive me and let me go free”

What would you as judge be your response?

Oh I forgot one little detail

You, the judge, are also my uncle who loves me and I am one of your favorite nephews.

Unfortunately for me, the fact that I am your favorite nephew and you love me will not change the sentence you need to make…

You, your Honor, Judge, Uncle Des, even though you still love me, you still are required to do your job and serve justice and render me a sentence to spend time in jail to pay for my unpaid tickets…agree?

having said that …

God even though He loves us…He is also just…and our sin we commit does not lead to a temporary jail sentence

Our sin if not forgiven leads to an eternal punishment in hell

that is why we have missionaries who go with an urgency to foreign lands to let people know where man stands in the eyes of God

For you and I our mission field is right in our neighborhood, workplace, places we shop, go to school…etc…

That is why Paul calls us to prayer in 1 Timothy 2

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

here is a powerful statement…

4 who…God… **desires all men to be saved **and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and **one Mediator **between God and men, ***the Man Christ Jesus, ***
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Des because of sin, thanks eve and adam, all men are separated from God…no exceptions

As for the native tribes who never heard the Gospel…

there in not one man of any tribe who has not commited adultery, lied, stolen, coveted, worship idols, have false Gods, dishonored parents, or murdered

Would you honestly believe God is just if he let all these murderers, liars, thiefs, adulterers, and false God worshipers into His kingdom?

Yes or no?

Des having read what I just stated and honestly aswering that last question…

do you still agree wih you said here?

This is not the compassionate God of the Bible where he preaches how He loved us so much on one hand, yet on the other, He could care less about the others who never got that chance to know Him. So I have no choice but to totally disagree with you on this.

Thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Matthew read my last two post to paul and inkaneer and then I challenge you to say the same thing about me.

Are there protestants who are immature, baby christians, just do not know the truth yet?

absolutely

by the way,

God and His word the bible is my final authority and is all I need.

that is not being prideful

That is honor and respect for almighty God

to label protestants as you just did as prideful…serves no purpose

Matthew…I encourage you to be God’s servant, as fxcc posted in this thread be a little Jesus to them

are you perfect without fault, just in case you are wondering I have many faults

God is working on changing me each and every day to be the person He wants me to be

God bless

mpjw

Please show me or anyone that the bible is the final authority?
To many people ignore 2Peter1:20-21. Thats why there are tens of thousands of truths in protestant land. They clam to be guided by the holy spirit who is NOT the author of chaos!
There is only ONE truth mpjw which can only be found in the catholic church

Matthew

 

[paul_c]

Paul, do you actually believe what I just quoted you?

God is giving you a choice between heaven or hell?

Absolutely. This choice is fundamental to Catholic theology. Every man has free will. He can decide to align that will with God’s will for him, manifested by loving God and Neighbor as Jesus taught, or we can choose to go our own way. That is the fundamental choice that leads to heaven or hell. You see, to follow Jesus is to become the servant of all. Satan would rather be the leader in hell than a servant in heaven. What about you? You claim you want to go to heaven. Are you willing to pay the price of admission? Or are these just empty words.

Well If you believe God is giving you that choice …

why on earth do you believe He is giving that choice with doubt?

He’s giving us that choice because he loves us without bounds and wants us to love him back unconditionally.

I know you want to go to heaven, who doesn’t?

If you were told that the only way to go to heaven was to become Catholic would you do it, or would you be too proud or too independent to do so. That is the choice before you.

, but I have not yet seen you or any catholic post that they know for sure they are going to heaven should they die right now.

So,

do you really believe you have a choice…heaven or hell?

or

do you believe God ultimately has that choice heaven or hell?

God can do whatever he wants but we believe he wants us to follow him of our own free will, not because we are forced to like a robot… That’s why he gave us free will. Do you honestly think a just God would create people who never had a chance at heaven?

Paul you may not have tomorrow to do the will of God, love Him and neighbor

If tonight you take your last breath, tomorrow you will be in your eternal home

will your eternal home be heaven

yes or no?

this is a catholic answer forum and to this point it is the one question catholics can not answer.

if yes, why do you believe you are going to heaven?

if not sure, why are you unsure?

thank you and God bless

mpjw

Catholics understand that it is God who will judge our hearts based on our actions. We do not try to play God by judging ourselves. We therefore can not honestly answer whether we will go to heaven or hell. We just do our best to do our job, loving God and Neighbor, and let God do his.

 

[paul_c]

I suppose you really didn’t get my point.

Let me explain in simplified terms:

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.
2. That is why we are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Holy Trinity and teach them everything Jesus commanded us.
3. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel? However, it is not unfair because in the first place, salvation is a gift which we do not deserve. Hence, it cannot be demanded. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.
4. Left to ourselves, we all deserve eternity of damnation in Hell because of our sins, including original and inherited sins.
5. But the Bile says we are judged by our actions? Yes we will. Our works will determine the level of our rewards in Heaven or the severity of our punishment in Hell. Works will not determine our salvation. God’s grace accepted through our faith will.
6. St. Paul was pertaining to the OT Mosaic Laws in Romans. Indeed, the Jews who have the Law will be judged according to it but those who do not, like the Gentiles at that time, will be judged apart from the Law. This is in relation to my explanation in No. 5 above.

I hope this is clear enough to be understood.

Your views are clear but in error. Let me explain:

1. People who die without accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior shall go to Hell because Jesus is the only way to salvation.

People who deny Jesus and what he taught will go to hell. Those who follow his teachings without ever knowing him through the natural law can still be saved. Paul talked about this in Romans 2:
12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus So you see, it is what you do that demonstrates whether the love that will save you is in your hearts. Besides, there are cases where Old Testament figures are in heaven, which refutes your claim:
After all, Moses and Elijah were at the transfiguration, but they never knew Jesus while they lived. Enoch and Elijah were carried off to heaven in the Old testament. And if you read,

1. That is why we are commissioned to go and make disciples of all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Holy Trinity and teach them everything Jesus commanded us

The apostles were commissioned to make disciples of all the nations, both by teaching the path to heaven and administering the sacraments. This is the Church’s continual mission : to help people get to heaven.

1. You might say this is unfair; how about those who never had the chance to hear the Gospel? However, it is not unfair because in the first place, salvation is a gift which we do not deserve. Hence, it cannot be demanded. It is by grace that we are saved through faith.

Grace is a free gift. It is offered to every man. Not all accept the gift.

1. Left to ourselves, we all deserve eternity of damnation in Hell because of our sins, including original and inherited sins.

Why are you so self loathing? God loves you. And yes, we need God’s grace to go to heaven, but this is freely given as we discussed above.

1. But the Bible says we are judged by our actions? Yes we will. Our works will determine the level of our rewards in Heaven or the severity of our punishment in Hell. Works will not determine our salvation. God’s grace accepted through our faith will.

First of all, why are you working for rewards? Those that go to heaven will be the ones that are the servants of all, just as Jesus was the servant of all. Second of all, faith without works is Dead. It is nothing more than empty words. Love is what gets you to heaven. And love is doing something for someone without expecting anything in return. And love is the biproduct of faith in God and understanding his message. The great commandment is " Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself. The new commandment is “:Love each other as I have loved you.” those statements are the summation of the Gospel message.

1. St. Paul was pertaining to the OT Mosaic Laws in Romans. Indeed, the Jews who have the Law will be judged according to it but those who do not, like the Gentiles at that time, will be judged apart from the Law. This is in relation to my explanation in No. 5 above.

I’ve already shown you the true application of this passage in my answer to 1.

 

[inkaneer]

Just to clarify, Christ has one catholic (universal) Church, which includes all Christian churches (congregations, denominations) around the world.

And what about all the conflicting doctrines contained in all those churches? Didn’t Jesus pray that his followers be one as He and the Father were one? Your statement is at best foolish and at worst blasphemous as it alleges that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of chaos and not the Spirit who will guide the church into all truth.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Can someone please start a continuation thread and link to it in this thread before we get shut down? I have more to share, but no time right now.

Thanks!

In Christ,
Pete

 

[jeffdsully05]

I agree with what everyone says. To also re-state what has been said. It is true there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, but it does not mean that our separated brothers and sisters, as well as everyone in the world, can not be saved. If some one seeks the fullness of truth found in Jesus Christ they will not help but end up in the Catholic Church. Even if someone were not to find the fullness of the truth in the Catholic Church, for what ever circumstances or reasons, does not mean they can not find the truth. Have some of the truth can and does lead people to Christ and to salvation. It maybe harder, but not impossible.

So what does it mean for all of us? Being that we have the full of truth in our faith, we are to seek out and teach all those that do not have the fullness of truth. That is our mission set forth by Jesus:

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Matthew 28:19-20

So let us all spread the fullness of truth that is Jesus Christ.

I will be praying for you.

 

[Kaste]

XBaptist and others who struggle with this:

You have to understand this forum is packed with Scott Hahn-type bunnies: recent converts supercharged to glorify their new pick: Rome.

Truth is, Rome has had a lot of corruptions and taught incorrectly, even at the highest levels. Defensive Catholics who whitewash this are all too prevalent here.

The question you have to ask yourself, and the one I am asking is: does that all mean we should not join Rome?

Orthodoxy is the closest thing to Rome without these types of problems, but has problems of its own.

Prayers and God speed in your journey friend-
K

 

[mpjw2]

Matthew…be careful what you ask for…you might receive it:thumbsup:

Please show me or anyone that the bible is the final authority

2 Tim 3:

15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

To many people ignore 2Peter1:20-21.

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,** 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.**

Matthew I for one believe every word of this verse.

Thats why there are tens of thousands of truths in protestant land.

one reason I agree

They claim to be guided by the holy spirit

they may believe that in their heart, but I am not in a position to judge whether they are in fact or not

who…Holy Spirit

is NOT the author of chaos!

agree 100%

There is only ONE truth mpjw which can only be found in the catholic church

again then tell me what that one truth is Matthew

is there or isnt there salvation outside the Catholic Church

that is the subject of the OP

all catholics are welcoming me home to the one true church

well I believe I am saved outside the Catholic Church

**Do you believe I am lying to myself?

Do you believe if I die outside the Catholic Church I can’t get to heaven?**

You are so bold to claim truth can only be found one place…

If you were to say truth can be found in Jesus Christ, I would 100% agree with you

but you say

only be found in the catholic church

Sorry I disagree

I wonder…

**Do you believe Billy Graham, a non catholic, is destined for hell?

If Rev. Graham posted on here, what would you say to him?**

God bless,

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

XBaptist and others who struggle with this:

You have to understand this forum is packed with Scott Hahn-type bunnies: recent converts supercharged to glorify their new pick: Rome.

Truth is, Rome has had a lot of corruptions and taught incorrectly, even at the highest levels. Defensive Catholics who whitewash this are all too prevalent here.

The question you have to ask yourself, and the one I am asking is: does that all mean we should not join Rome?

Orthodoxy is the closest thing to Rome without these types of problems, but has problems of its own.

Prayers and God speed in your journey friend-
K

Kaste, I have no idea what you are advocating here. can you clarify? that there have been corrupt members of the church is undeniable but you say that Rome has taught incorrectly, even at the highest levels. Can you support that rather inflammatory statement with some details. After all, Jesus said he would be with the church until the end of the age.

 

[paul_c]

is there or isnt there salvation outside the Catholic Church

that is the subject of the OP

Yes, if you are invinsibly ignorant of the church yet still do what it teaches in terms of loving God and neighbor, you can get to heaven without being catholic

all catholics are welcoming me home to the one true church. Well I believe I am saved outside the Catholic Church.

**Do you believe I am lying to myself? ** I believe you wouldn’t be asking this question in every post if you yourself were confident of your entry into heaven. I believe that if you do wome real introspection, you will understand that the spirit is leading you to the truth and its not what you currently profess.
mpjw2;6653543:

Do you believe if I die outside the Catholic Church I can’t get to heaven?

You are so bold to claim truth can only be found one place…

If you were to say truth can be found in Jesus Christ, I would 100% agree with you

but you say it can only be found in the Catholic church.

Sorry I disagree

we believe that all the Christian churches teach SOME truth because in general, they agree with more Catholic doctrine than they disagree. The problem is that they don’t teach all truth and the areas where they deviate from Catholic teaching is in error. These errors, like for instance " the sacraments don’t matter for salvation" can lead people to their own damnation.

I wonder…

**Do you believe Billy Graham, a non catholic, is destined for hell?

If Rev. Graham posted on here, what would you say to him?**

God bless,

mpjw

So you are now playing God and judging Billy Graham?

 

[EDWARDJL]

No contradiction, and being “inside the physical bounds of the Catholic Church to do this” has been explicitly denied.
The maxim applies to those who with full knowledge chose to leave Christ’s Church. The Church also teaches Baptism of Desire – the Council of Trent, 1545-1563, defined the dogma of baptism by desire.

Post #49: “Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].”

“Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).”

This is not to say that the maxim is false. Properly understood, it is quite true. The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. **Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. **Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). [My emphasis].

Abu,

You or anyone else, has still has not answered my question. That Council of Florence quote said nothing about invincible ignorance. It said you much be in the Catholic Church and receiving the sacraments. The only way to do this is be a physical member of the Church. This would preclude all these invincibly ignorant Protesatants

I don’t need to hear more quotes from church fathers and Catholic apologists. This concil of Florence quote is an official council statment by the Catholic Church. If you compare this statment with the current interpretation, it doesn’t appear to be consistent.