Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[anthony022071]

do you believe that if a person dies as a non catholic ( does not believe in many of the teachings of the catholic church) they will not be saved and spend eternity in hell?

yes or no

another way of asking is this…

Do you believe the only way for a person to enter heaven is they must be catholic prior to their death.

yes or no

thank you

It isn’t necessary for a person to belong to the Catholic Church prior to their death in order to be saved,but anyone who will be saved will belong to the Catholic Church in heaven.
Heaven will be a communion of the faithful,and obviously there is no salvation outside of heaven.

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW, You seem to be looking for approval of your belief system from us and acknowledgement that you are saved.

I am sorry paul wrong assumption on your part

We are compelled to tell you the truth as we see it.

I respect that

Your rejection of Catholic teaching and especially the efficacy of the sacraments separates you form the Body of Christ, which is the church Jesus founded.

your belief …it is not mine

Jesus did not find ONLY the catholic church.

Jesus’ church is ALL the christian church of believers

There can be no denial of this point.

well I am in denial of certain things you believe…

**do you believe it will cost me my salvation? **

When you die and are asked on Judgement day, " Why did you reject the church I founded?" what will be your response?

I not worried about that question, I am not rejecting Jesus and His christian church body.

I feel sorry for you that you believe I am

I embrace ALL christian believers as belonging to His body, can you say the same?

God bless,

mpjw

 

[anthony022071]

Jesus did not find ONLY the catholic church.

Jesus’ church is ALL the christian church of believers

Catholic means whole or universal. How could Jesus be said to have founded other churches apart from the one,whole Church of scripture? If there is one Body of Christ,there can only be one Church that he founded.

I embrace ALL christian believers as belonging to His body, can you say the same?

Being a believer and belonging to the Body of Christ are two different things. Jesus founded only one Body of Christ and those who belong to it are united in the sacraments and in doctrine.

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW,
honestly, your focus is all wrong on these threads. Its all about you. " I am saved", “I am going to Heaven”

I am so sorry you believe that

Those who go to heaven will be those that understand they are to serve God and others.

there are a lot of people I believe who are spending eternity in hell because their focus was on just that …serving God and others

Yes, serving God and others is important, but it is not the deciding factor on who gets to heaven.

They will not be the one’s who are so worried about themselves

.

What is the first thing a selfish person needs to do to get to heaven?

If that person is selfish all his life and does not do this until they are in their dying breaths, I believe God will welcome that person with open arms into heaven

Protestant/ Evangelical theology has a lot of “what’s in it for me” inbedded in it. " I can interpret for myself", I can be saved if I believe in Jesus. I am a sinner, I can be a priest. I…, I…, I… , I…

I believe, unfortunately there are lot of christians what you describe apply.

but then again who am I to judge, I have enough faults of my own to worry about.

but one of them is not having a “whats in it for me” attitude.

Please read my post to Robert #941 and see if you draw same conclusion

If you paid attention, you would see that devout Catholics don’t think that way. They are obedient to the church. They aren’t worried about their individual roles. They aren’t worried about whether or not they will be saved.

ok

They ARE worried about doing the will of God.

why are they worried?, God already has done everything for them.

He is not going to expect them to do anything in which they can not handle.

They want to recieve Jesus into their hearts through the eucharist so that the can be one with them.

ok…I respect your belief about the eucharist

We were made to serve God and our fellow man. Embrace that.

I do …thank you

out of all the ways to serve God and man, which way do you believe is the most
important of all?

Everything else will take care of itself.

are you sure about that. think about what you just said.

“take care of itself” …

Where is God in “itself” ?

thank you

God bless,

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Hi inkaneer

Thank you, I did miss it.

your welcome

I of course do not agree with your interpretation.

I am sure you do not ,…but that is ok

The interpretation that I gave is not mine but rather is the interpretation of the church
down through the ages.

I understand what you believe and why you believe it:thumbsup:

The Book of Revelation says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it. Re 21:27 says:

“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood,
but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Sin, I think you will agree is spiritual uncleanliness.

agree 100%

Continuing on, Jesus said in Mt 12:31-32:
… it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come."

That last sentence speaks of forgiveness of sins ocurring in this world
as well as the world to come.

I do not see that…yes there is a world to come. the only thing the verse says sins will not be forgiven in the world to come…

it says nothing about sins will be forgiven in the world to come

The term world to come"
means spiritual existence after physical death.

agree …which I believe heaven is that world

So obviously after one dies and before they enter heaven they obtain forgiveness
for at least some sins.

you believe this …I do not

Mortal sin condemns a soul to hell. So that leaves venial sin to be the one that can be forgiven in the ‘world to come’ or after physical life has ended.

Here is another are where we disagree…I believe Jesus died for all our sins and we need to confess all not just the “mortal” sins

Anytime I lose my anger, or get impatient, or gossip about someone, or post something on this thread which is not christian, or…

I confess to God I was wrong,

Now let’s look at what Paul is saying then in 1 Cor 3:11-15:…

…He speaks of a man whose ‘work will become manifest’.

You believe this happens in purgatory and there is nothing i can say which will cause you to believe otherwise…but that is ok

Now in your response you dwelt on the good works mentioned in 1 Cor 3:11-15 and how the man is rewarded for them. You made **no mention **of the works that are consumed by the fire.

There are a lot things about God I can not in my human mind begin to comprehend

Obviously the man goes through a purifying process through which he is purged of any uncleanliness. We call that purging process Purgatory.

Yes I know but I do not believe

That is a Latin word… " Ask what it is and they will say it is the final purification before entering heaven. Well La Dee Da, but don’t ever accuse them of believing in purgatory. It’s too Latin!

interesting

Inkaneer, you post scripture to support why you believe the way you do.

believe it or not I can use the same scripture to support what I believe.

bottom line is …whether or not purgatory exists is not really the main issue

I do not believe for one second I am condemning myself to hell because I do not believe in purgatory.

here is the main issue…

As for protestants they, in my mind, make light of sin

.

Inkaneer after all the discussion, that I believe is the biggest problem of all

It is too easy to say, “Jesus paid the price” and sweep the matter under the rug.

agree 100%

Scripture has a lot to say about sin and its effects and how sin is dealt with. Jesus paid the price for Adam’s sin and through His death man was no longer separated from God unless man wanted to be separated. We separate ourselves from God by sinning. If Jesus alone paid the price for our sins

agree 100%

and we can’t do anything as protestants claim

Inkaneer, I hear your concern.

there are a couple of things here…

“protestants” is an umbrella term which covers all non catholic christians.

even though I am not offended, please understand that there might be baptists, methodists, lutherans, pentecostals, etc who might take objection to being called protestant.

I would tend to agree that there are non catholic christians who believe catholics can’t do anything…

I for one believe Catholics can do and are doing a lot for the kingdom of God

why are we then called to repentence?

for the exact same reason we all are

If the price is paid ‘in full’ why is there a need for hell?

unfortunately, people will die having rejected God

Why do souls go there? Why is there judgement if the price was already paid in full?

God does not lie…Jesus said

But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 10:33

I do not know about you, but I only see one way to interpret this verse

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Catholic means whole or universal. How could Jesus be said to have founded other churches apart from the one,whole Church of scripture? If there is one Body of Christ,there can only be **one Church **that he founded.

I 100% agree if church means the structure and techings of the catholic church as it is today

However I disagree.

church defines a body of believers

I believe it was fxcc who said in this thread God wants us to be little Christs to people who we come in contact with…I loved that.

consider this…

I go out with my friends…non believers included

one of my non believer friends ask questions about christianity

God works through us in giving the right answers to him and our non believing friends

our friends are convicted and believes the good news of the gospel

they ask us to pray for them…

Anthony…because we were willing to be obedient to the call of God, resulting in my friends, who were once lost, were found and welcomed to the body of Christian believers in Christ.

Being a believer and belonging to the Body of Christ are two different things. .

I agree only if the above scenario only happens in the world of catholicism

Thank you and

God bless

 

[mpjw2]

You seem very kindhearted.

thank you Pete

after reading your post here, I believe you also have a sincere kind heart who does not want to see anyone perish for eternity.

You expressed yourself well:thumbsup:

I understand what you believe and why you believe it, which is the reason for your aggressive loving urgency.

The truth, as you believe truth to be, is being revealed to you now, however poorly, through our witness to you, marred though it is by sin.

You have fallen from the Catholic faith without which it is impossible to please God.

I am telling you now that you are wrong.

That means that if you hold this belief with the free consent of your will and with knowledge that it is anathema, which knowledge you now have, refusing correction, then you are a heretic. You refuse to believe what the King has revealed. You are outside the Church and will die and go to hell unless you repent

I realize catholics believe in the holy Eucharist, I do not

I guess it means that you believe I am condemning myself to hell should I die not believing in the Holy Eucharist…right?

If you do all I got to ask you is …

how surprised will you be when you meet me in heaven?

God bless

mpjw

 

[inkaneer]

Inkaneer, you post scripture to support why you believe the way you do.

believe it or not I can use the same scripture to support what I believe.

bottom line is …whether or not purgatory exists is not really the main issue

I do not believe for one second I am condemning myself to hell because I do not believe in purgatory.

Yes I know you can use scripture to support opposing doctrines. I see it all the time in protestantism. Baptists use the same scriptures to deny infant Baptism as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists and others do to support it. So what does that say about the Bible being the “final authority” as the current rendition of sola scriptura alleges? What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated to support opposing doctrines? Seems to me that the “final authority” is not authoritative at all if it can be manipulated by anyone. In addition it seems in the protestant world of whatever tens thousands of denominations there are, all of whom claim to be led by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of chaos not the spirit of truth. After all how many different ‘truths’ are there? So, yes, I can and do believe that you can use the very same scriptures to support your beliefs, at least in your mind. And you are correct that not believing in purgatory will not condemn you to hell. But are you infallible? Can you be wrong? And if you are wrong, not just about purgatory, but about really important stuff like forgiveness of sin. What if your sins are not forgiven as you claim but you only think they are? You can quote scripture but as you point out so can I to support my beliefs and if I am correct you are in deep doodoo and eternally so. And the kicker is that there is no way you can tell if you are correct because your beliefs are no more than your opinion and there is no real “final authority” to tell you whether your opinion or the next guy’s opinion is correct. So salvation becomes a **** shoot with you gambling on your eternity.

there are a couple of things here…

“protestants” is an umbrella term which covers all non catholic christians.

even though I am not offended, please understand that there might be baptists, methodists, lutherans, pentecostals, etc who might take objection to being called protestant.

Sola scriptura was the product of protestantism. Every non Catholic denomination claims to be sola scripturist. Therefore they are protestant whether they like it or not. I know the Baptists claim they never came from the Catholic Church so they can’t be called protestant. Well no, they came from the Church of England in 1605. Of course the Church of England came from what? The Catholic Church of course. Same is true about the Methodists, only they came out of the Church of England in the 1700’s Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Assembly of God, you name it, they all came into existence since 1800 and while they may not have come out of the Catholic Church they came out of other protestant denominations that came out of Catholicism. There are all kinds of denominations that split from other denominations that split from still other denominations. Protestantism continues to split and divide to this day. The one thing they all have in common is they all adhere to the protestant doctrine, first formulated by Martin Luther, of sola scriptura.

 

[mpjw2]

Primary example of misunderstanding…

Originally Posted by non catholic

God sees lying as much a sin as if I went to the supermarket and had two bottle of $1.00 water sitting under the cart, then got home and discovered I had not paid for them.

a catholic poster…

Then by this rational, a child murdering thieving rapist who rapes and kills as much as you sin daily or weekly and believes in all the things you do but repents daily, always was and always is saved even during his/her murdering raping sprees? lol
You just have to know how ludicrous this sounds.

with the attitude presented yeah I agree it is ludicrous…but we are not talking about human logic…we are talking about the grace of God.

Also, according to this logic of yours, we will always sin because of our human nature and Jesus’ Sacrifice is not sufficient to help us remove sin completely.

Jesus’ sacrifice does help us to remove sin, there is no one person on the face of this earth who lived a sinfree life but Jesus.

and there is no one person on the face of this earth who has not broken at least one of the 10 commandments in some way each and every month of their life

without the grace of God we are all doomed to hell because at one time or another we have all disobeyed at least one of the 10 commandments…right???

whether we are being tempted by satan with lying, murdering, steeling, or taking Lord’s name in vain…sin is sin and that sin will preventus from entering heaven if pur soul is not in a state of grace when we die.

if the murdering rapist sincerely repents and confesses, God will know his heart and desire not to murder again

God’s forgiveness may forgive him spiritually but not with the law of the people.
If caught he may still be sentenced to jail

if the murderer’s flesh is weak and commits murder again, God will forgive as He will forgive anyone who repeatidly lies and confesses

So with rape being the same as a white lie, the Holy Spirit is too weak to help him overcome his lustful desires and that’s fine because he can blame it all on his human nature.

If anyone believes this, they missed the point

May God reveal the truth to all

 

[Bengoshi]

God would not condemn people simply for unbelief when they have not even heard the gospel preached to them properly. That would be unjust. God judges those who have not had the gospel preached to them by their works,just as he does with those who have faith. As Saint Paul said in Romans,the heathens who do what the law of God requires show that they have the law written upon their hearts,and they will be judged by their consciences.

God does not condemn people simply because they did not hear nor believe in the Gospel. He condemns people because of their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Since salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8-9), God cannot be unjust in not giving others the salvific grace or the opportunity to hear the Gospel. A gift is something undeserved and hence cannot be demanded by anyone, and we accpet that gift by faith.

 

[Bengoshi]

It isn’t necessary for a person to belong to the Catholic Church prior to their death in order to be saved,but anyone who will be saved will belong to the Catholic Church in heaven.
Heaven will be a communion of the faithful,and obviously there is no salvation outside of heaven.

Amen!

 

[Abu]

mpjw2 (#944)
God teaches me by the Holy Spirit who dwells in me

I notice that you are unable to refute the fact that His Church to which He gave His authority can then teach infallibly and tell us what writings are the inspired Word of God as She gave us that knowledge of the truth as fact. So I ask again why would you fantasize that Christ’s Church teaches error?

Since God is not contradictory, the Holy Spirit cannot teach anything against the teaching of Christ, so it is fantasy to feel otherwise and it is not based on faith or reason. The actual graces of impulse towards Him through which God offers everyone an opportunity to be linked with His Church, and therefore Himself, need to be accepted to impel the receiver towards Him.

 

[Des]

Primary example of misunderstanding…

Originally Posted by non catholic

a catholic poster…

with the attitude presented yeah I agree it is ludicrous…but we are not talking about human logic…we are talking about the grace of God.

What does the Grace of God have to do with how much one sin is worse than the other?

Jesus’ sacrifice does help us to remove sin, there is no one person on the face of this earth who lived a sinfree life but Jesus.

Tell that to a preborn, newborn, or infant who died before reaching the appropriate age of reason.

and there is no one person on the face of this earth who has not broken at least one of the 10 commandments in some way each and every month of their life

If you wish to believe that, then it’s up to you.

whether we are being tempted by satan with lying, murdering, steeling, or taking Lord’s name in vain…sin is sin and that sin will preventus from entering heaven if pur soul is not in a state of grace when we die.

Only mortal sin will prevent that.

if the murdering rapist sincerely repents and confesses, God will know his heart and desire not to murder again

I believe that as well. But my post was to the OSAS believing Beth so I was making a point to her you obviously overlooked and not about a murdering rapist never being forgiven as my point.

 

[Des]

Yes I know you can use scripture to support opposing doctrines. I see it all the time in protestantism. Baptists use the same scriptures to deny infant Baptism as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists and others do to support it. So what does that say about the Bible being the “final authority” as the current rendition of sola scriptura alleges? What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated to support opposing doctrines? Seems to me that the “final authority” is not authoritative at all if it can be manipulated by anyone. In addition it seems in the protestant world of whatever tens thousands of denominations there are, all of whom claim to be led by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of chaos not the spirit of truth. After all how many different ‘truths’ are there? So, yes, I can and do believe that you can use the very same scriptures to support your beliefs, at least in your mind. And you are correct that not believing in purgatory will not condemn you to hell. But are you infallible? Can you be wrong? And if you are wrong, not just about purgatory, but about really important stuff like forgiveness of sin. What if your sins are not forgiven as you claim but you only think they are? You can quote scripture but as you point out so can I to support my beliefs and if I am correct you are in deep doodoo and eternally so. And the kicker is that there is no way you can tell if you are correct because your beliefs are no more than your opinion and there is no real “final authority” to tell you whether your opinion or the next guy’s opinion is correct. So salvation becomes a **** shoot with you gambling on your eternity.

Sola scriptura was the product of protestantism. Every non Catholic denomination claims to be sola scripturist. Therefore they are protestant whether they like it or not. I know the Baptists claim they never came from the Catholic Church so they can’t be called protestant. Well no, they came from the Church of England in 1605. Of course the Church of England came from what? The Catholic Church of course. Same is true about the Methodists, only they came out of the Church of England in the 1700’s Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Assembly of God, you name it, they all came into existence since 1800 and while they may not have come out of the Catholic Church they came out of other protestant denominations that came out of Catholicism. There are all kinds of denominations that split from other denominations that split from still other denominations. Protestantism continues to split and divide to this day. The one thing they all have in common is they all adhere to the protestant doctrine, first formulated by Martin Luther, of sola scriptura.

Nicely written inkaneer.

 

[paul_c]

God does not condemn people simply because they did not hear nor believe in the Gospel. He condemns people because of their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Since salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8-9), God cannot be unjust in not giving others the salvific grace or the opportunity to hear the Gospel. A gift is something undeserved and hence cannot be demanded by anyone, and we accpet that gift by faith.

I don’t get what you are driving at here.
Of course you will not be condemned if you never hear the gospel. And yes, your entrance into heaven or hell ultimately will be decided by your actions:

St. Paul describes this in Roman’s 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek

He goes on to say that not having known the gospel is no excuse for bad behavior:

12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

God in his mercy and justice, will give everyone the opportunity to choose between heaven and hell. Some are born into the Catholic Church and get the benefit of the sacraments, yet they still have the chance to choose between heaven and hell and some separate themselves from God and the Church

Some are born outside the Catholic Church but through various methods have access to it, including through this forum. They too have a choice to join and be saved or to remain separated.

Finally, a few are born outside the Catholic Church and never have access to its teachings or sacraments. These still have the natural law writen on their hearts and still have conscience to guide them as St. Paul says above… Less will be expected of them, of course since less has been given.

Even in this last case, salvation is through the church because to reach heaven, they will need to act as Catholics in their life, albiet without the benefit of Catholic instruction.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all

just want to let you know a catholic brethern is in desperate need of prayer.

If God places it on your heart to do so…

his post is

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6647271&postcount=1

 

[mpjw2]

God does not condemn people simply because they did not hear nor believe in the Gospel. He condemns people because of their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Since salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8-9), God cannot be unjust in not giving others the salvific grace or the opportunity to hear the Gospel. A gift is something undeserved and hence cannot be demanded by anyone, and we accpet that gift by faith.

AMEN

 

[Robert_in_SD]

“I am in a state of grace and I am in the right relationship with God”

tells me that you probably just went to confession and that should you die right now you will go to heaven …if not right away, you will go to purgatory first

Do you agree?

I assume you will say yes
based on you saying yes,

I can honestly let you know that when I say
“I am saved”
means the same to me as you saying
“I am in a state of grace and I am in the right relationship with God”
means to youOK. But just understand when you are talking with a Catholic and you use your phrase “I am saved” we hear a bit of presumption in it and it’s kind of like fingers on a blackboard. (Did I just date myself here?) Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. What it appears like you are saying is that you have what amounts to a moral certainty that if you continue to live your life in a way that Christ has commanded us to live, continue to repent and confess your sins when you err (as we all do certainly) then you believe (and hope) that you will be in Heaven when you die. This is essentially what Catholics believe when they are in a state of grace. You do realize, however, that this position is quite removed from the current evangelical trend of OSAS, correct? So, when you tell someone who comes from that tradition “I am saved” they will attach a very different meaning to your words. Perhaps “getting right with God” is a better (albeit more ecumenical) declaration.

mpjw:

Of course you do …otherwise you would not be a faithful Catholic as you are,… May God keep you strong in your faith

Thanks, but I also think it’s the best way for you and non-Catholics too. That’s why I urge people to be open to the possibility of becoming a Catholic Christian. The sacramental life is the best way to stay close to God and, thereby, in a state of grace.

mpjw:

Well now, here is a subject we disagree on [salvation for non-christians]

A tricky question. What about those who, despite our best efforts, do not hear and receive the word of God, or because of the countries in which they live cannot do so for fear of their lives and the lives fo their families? Or what about those who reject christianity based upon a false interpretation of the faith (say an islamic interpretation of Jesus as prophet only). The Church addresses this in Lumen Gentium at par. 16:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

125 Cf. Rom. 9:4-5
126 Cf. Rom. 1 l:28-29.
127 Cf. Acts 17:25-28.
128 Cf. 1 Tim. 2:4.
129 Cf Rom. 1:21, 25.
130 Mk. 16:16.

(18*) Cfr. S. Thomas, Summa Theol. III, q. 8, a. 3, ad 1.
(19*) Cfr. Epist. S.S.C.S. Officii ad Archiep. Boston.: Denz. 3869-72.
(20*) Cfr. Eusebius Caes., Praeparatio Evangelica, 1, 1: PG 2128 AB.

This may be a subject of a whole new thread and I would be happy to participate.

mpjw:

…no one knows the decision one will make in their dying breath when they still have a chance to achieve grace and be in the right rrelationship with God.

God gives us all sufficient initial grace to say “yes” to HIm. And I’m sure God knows who says “yes” and who says “no” in their hearts. That’s what’s important. Not our external declarations, but our internal responses.

Peace,
Robert

 

[mpjw2]

Inkaneer

I love and respect you and everyone else and appreciate your time in answering my concerns.

I can not thank all you enough

I have been in discussion for 2 weeks now on this thread. I have also been on other threads currently and in the past

I have too say one thing about catholics, they are one of the most helpful, caring, God-loving people I have come in contact with.

Sometimes that love is so strong which may cause some truths to come out which if not received the way intended…can lead to the person receiving feeling offended or hurt.

By the way just to let you know, nothing has been said by anyone which I was offended by.

I look forward to continuing our discussion…

having said that, let me respond to your post

Baptists use the same scriptures to deny infant Baptism as Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists and others do to support it. So what does that say about the Bible being the "final authority" as the current rendition of sola scriptura alleges? What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated to support opposing doctrines? Seems to me that the “final authority” is not authoritative at all if it can be manipulated by anyone.

I hear your frustration. but I do not understand your reasoning

I believe the bible is the final authority…it is God’s word…that does not change

what changes is, like you said. how His word is manipulated

example a speed limit sign says 50 mph

no matter how many times you pass that sign it will still say 50 mph

are there drivers who pass that sign going 58mph? 63mph? 70mph?.

yes to all questions

I even saw a 50 mph sign where someone painted the sign and made the 5 look like an 8

well let me ask you your question…

So what does that say about the 50mph being the final authority

What kind of “final authority” can be manipulated

all final authorities can be manipulated.

The question is what truth is the final authority sending, and are we believing that truth and if we believe that truth do we seek for a better way

final authority. whether its a speed limit sign or God’s word does not change…it is still the final authority

… After all how many different ‘truths’ are there?

 

[mpjw2]

cont…

What I do not understand is…

What is it that causes you to believe God will not forgive the sins I confess if i confess my sins with the same contrite repentant heart in which you confess your sin/s?

And the kicker is that there is no way you can tell if you are correct because your beliefs are no more than your opinion and there is no real “final authority” to tell you whether your opinion or the next guy’s opinion is correct.

Inkanner you are giving me your opinion about what I believe because it is different from what you believe is the one truth.

I believe what I believe is truth from God (not my opinion) just as strongly as you believe what you do is truth from God

the final authority is God do you agree?
or is your final authority the Catholic Church?

So salvation becomes a **** shoot with you gambling on your eternity.

really? I have yet to hear a Catholic say

“I know for sure if I die right now at this moment I am in a state of grace, I am in the right relationship with God, God will save me and I will spend eternity in heaven”

I believe should you say the above, you are not sure if it is true or not

So you might have this feeling you do not want to play God

My friend, if you are not sure about God’s promise to you about salvation then your whole life is a gamble

I can not imagine being on my death bed and not knowing what my eternal destination will be

I have been in the presence of catholic and non catholic funerals

As much as you care for me, If there is one thing I hope and pray for my catholic brethern is the peace that comes with knowing for sure the eternal destination of our depart loved ones

and again it has nothing to do with OSAS

It has everything to do with God’s love for each and everyone of us

Gambling is stating a future event and not being sure if it will happen

Truth is stating a future event and being sure it will happen

God’s word about His gift of salvation is truth as Bengoshi posted a few back

I have accepted it…have you?

God bless

mpjw