Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[usemelord]

What a great post Abu!! I might add that, although it’s certainly a nice thing for all Christians to have faith, we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace, or as I like to illustrate it in the form of an acronym: God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense. That is, Christ’s passion, death, and, praise God, His resurrection represent His “expense.”

 

[Louemma]

PART 1

Jesus responded to the opportunity by telling him about the essentiality of the new birth. Jesus made a single point: Understanding and participating in the new birth are essential to recognizing and entering God’s kingdom.

 As a Pharisee, Nicodemus' convictions were founded on these understandings. 1) One must know the Mosaical law. 2) One must apply the meaning of the law. 3) One must clearly practice the laws of purity and proper worship of God. 

 As a member of the Jerusalem Sanhedrin, Nicodemus was a member of Israel's highest, most prestigious court of 70 prominent leaders recognized as experts in Mosaical law. They protected Israel from false teachers and religious heresy. 

 Nicodemus came to Jesus in sincerity and honesty. He genuinely believed that Jesus was a teacher sent from God. As an honest observer, he acknowledged the obvious: no person performed Jesus' miracles unless God was with him. 

 With his background, position of religious leadership and knowledge of Scripture, Nicodemus should have understood the new birth. Amazingly, this learned man could not comprehend that teaching. 

 All knowledgeable, devout Israelites held two basic understandings. 1) Anyone born of Jewish parents and circumcised on the eighth day was in covenant relationship with God (Genesis 17:10-14; Exodus 12:48; Leviticus 12:1-4). 2) Faithful obedience to the Mosaical law was essential for maintaining that covenant relationship with God (Deuteronomy 4:1-8). Circumcision placed one in covenant relationship with God; obedience kept one in covenant relationship with God. 

 Devout Pharisees defined all aspects of faithfulness in terms of obeying the law. These ultimate legalists applied the law to every area of life. In their conscientious commitment to applying the law, they created applications based on their perception of the law's intent. 

 The laws of purification were prominent in Pharisaic lifestyle. Purity was the result of ceremonial purity. Purification occurred when one cleansed his body in exact obedience to purification ordinances. 

 When a woman gave birth, she was unclean for a specified time (Leviticus 12). She could not touch anything sacred or go to the temple. When that time ended, she offered a sacrificial animal at the temple and cleansing occurred. 

 A person who touched a corpse, a human bone, or a grave was impure for seven days (Numbers 19:11-22). A clean person offered a sacrifice for the unclean person, took the ashes, and mixed those ashes in a single container with water from a flowing stream. The clean person sprinkled the unclean person with that water on the third and seventh day. After the final sprinkling, the unclean person washed his clothes, took a bath and was clean at nightfall. In that process, if the clean person touched the water of impurity, he also was unclean for seven days. 

 On must understand these teachings and convictions if he is to understand the way Nicodemus thought. 

 Nicodemus said, "We know you are a teacher sent by God because no one can perform your miracles unless God is with him." Perhaps Nicodemus attempted to lead Jesus into a discussion of his identity. However, Jesus did not wish to discuss His identity. 

 Jesus replied, "Nicodemus, I tell you the truth: Unless a person is born anew (born again, born from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God." To Nicodemus, this was a strange, new condition for entering the anticipated kingdom. His study verified that any circumcised Israelite who kept the law was assured a place in that kingdom. Also, his training taught him to consider religious truths in literal, physical terms. A literal rebirth to become part of a physical kingdom was impossible. 

 Nicodemus responded, "How can that be possible? Can anyone re-enter his mother's womb and experience a second physical birth?" Nicodemus' legalistic training in literalism controlled his thinking. It never occurred to him to think in terms other than the literal, the physical. He was not being frivolous or foolish! He was giving serious response in the only way he was trained to think! 

 Jesus answered, "Again, I tell you the truth: If a person is not born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter God's kingdom. That born of the physical body is physical; that born of the spirit is spirit (spiritual). 

 "Does the thought of a second birth dumbfound you? Is that idea beyond comprehension? You cannot explain the wind; you cannot see it; but you know it is real because you see its effect. Explaining the new birth or actually seeing the spirit working in the new birth is unnecessary. It really is obvious in the effects of the new birth produced by the working of the spirit." 

 A confused Nicodemus replied, "I do not see how any of this is possible." 

 Jesus answered, "You are this nation's teacher, and you do not understand this? I know what I am saying, but you cannot accept it. If you cannot understand things happening on earth, how can you believe heavenly realities if I reveal them?" 

 An obvious lesson is easily missed. If a person spends his entire life thinking legalistically as he studies Scripture, he will become incapable of seeing or understanding the true spiritual perspective. The spiritual perspective is unnatural and confusing to him

 

[Louemma]

PART 2

Legalistic thinking has three focal points. 1) Definitions: Exactly what is happening? The occurrence must be explainable. 2) How: How can that happen? A visible cause and effect relationship must be obvious. 3) What: What actually occurs? What occurs must be demonstrable in clear, visible steps.

 Consider the Pharisees' concept of purity. Definition of impurity: The physical body touches something defined by law as impure and becomes unclean. How does that happen? The impurity residing in the impure thing is transferred to one's body by physical contact. What takes place in cleansing? A special purification water destroys the contamination and separates the body from the impurity. A step-by-step, visible procedure cleanses in seven days. 

 Purification occurred because there were proper definition, proper answers for how and what, and proper, visible procedural steps performed. 

 Jesus said God's work through the spirit is not that simple. Even under Mosaical law, the power was not in the sacrifice, the water, the ashes, the sprinkling, the clothes washing, or the bath. The power was in God who granted the cleansing through the person's obedient faith, which trusted God's promise. 

 Tragically, the Pharisee endowed human deeds with divine power. He believed the water, the procedure and feeble human acts contained intrinsic power. Foolishly, he believed the power was generated by doing the right thing. 

 Jesus challenged Nicodemus to realize such thinking was foolish. Nicodemus did not think about the wind with that restricted thought process. He did not know where it came from, where it went, or why it began and stopped. He certainly could not see it. However, he knew the wind was a fact, a reality that could not be denied. Its existence was not dependent on an analytical, demonstrable cause-and-effect explanation. An element of mystery was beyond explanation, but that element did not make the wind any less real. 

 In the new birth Jesus was discussing baptism. God's work in baptism contains a great element of mystery. God is working through the blood of Jesus, the power of the Resurrection and His Spirit as He cleanses the person of all evil. 

 At what moment is the sin destroyed? How does He give spiritual life? How does the person participate in Jesus' Resurrection? We do not know. 

 It happens! We cannot explain it or see it occur. It occurs because God is active and using His power. No human power makes it happen. The power is not in the water or in the physical washing, but in Jesus' Resurrection (I Peter 3:20, 21). God uses water to implement our salvation, but the water is not responsible for our salvation. Salvation occurs because a faith-filled, penitent conscience reaches out to God and Christ. 

 Some reject baptism because it contains elements of mystery. Because God's use of the blood and Resurrection power cannot be explained, baptism has no bearing on salvation. Just as the new birth made no sense to Nicodemus, baptism makes no sense to them. 

 Others place their faith in baptism, not God. Their faith is in the human act, not in God's power working through the act. Thus, their children are baptized at an early age before they are lost, before they are sinners. Have you watched a child lay down a toy to take communion? Also, they pressure a dying, unbaptized loved one to submit to baptism. They stress "doing it" with little or no teaching about Jesus. If the sick adult submits to the act, the act destroys the Christian's concern. In both instances, is there intrinsic power in the water or the act? 

 Jesus was discussing conversion. To Nicodemus, Jewish birth combined with circumcision, made one a part of God's chosen people. To Nicodemus conversion was a strange, difficult concept. To the person who reduces salvation and godliness to mere rules and regulations, conversion is still a strange, difficult concept.

 

[Louemma]

PART 3

John 3:5Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit** gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Jesus makes the statement to Nicodemus"You can not tell where the wind blows,same with the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit is as the wind,He goes where he pleases.Can a person come to Jesus without the Holy Spirit?Let us go to the scriptures and see what God’s word says…

The preaching of the Gospel by the ambassadors of the Lord Jesus is the instrument appointed for the reconciling or bringing home of sinners to God in Christ. This is clear from Romans 10:14 and 1 Corinthians 1:21, and more particularly from 2 Corinthians 5:20, “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.” But, as we have pointed out, the mere preaching of the Word—no matter how faithfully—will never bring a single rebel to the feet of Christ in penitence, confidence, and allegiance. No, for that there must be the special and supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit: only thus are any actually drawn to Christ to receive Him as Lord and Savior: and only as this fact is carefully kept prominently before us does the blessed Spirit have His true place in our hearts and minds.

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power” (Ps. 110:3). It is by moral persuasion—“with cords of a man” (Hosea 11 :4)—that the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ. Yet by moral persuasion we must not understand a simple and bare proposal or tender of Christ, leaving it still to the sinner’s choice whether he will comply with it or not. For though God does not force the will contrary to its nature, nevertheless He puts forth a real efficacy when He “draws,” which consists of an immediate operation of the Spirit upon the heart and will whereby its native rebellion and reluctance is removed, and from a state of unwillingness the sinner is made willing to come to Christ. This is clear from Ephesians 1:19, 20 which we quote below.

“And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places.” Here is much more than a mere proposal made to the will: there is the putting forth of Divine power, great power, yea the exceeding greatness of God’s power; and this power has a sure and certain efficacy ascribed to it: God works upon the hearts and wills of His people “according to the working of His mighty power, which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead”—both are miracles of Divine might. Thus God fulfills “all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power” (2 Thess. 1:11). Unless the “arm of the LORD” is revealed (Isa. 53:1) none believe His “report.”**

 

[Louemma]

**PART 4 **

So to make the claim that there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church is not lining up with the scripture…

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Unless there are some here who can say "without making Christ a liar "
claiming to know the direction in which the Holy Spirit moves,or to claim the Holy Spirit is only for the Catholic Church.Can one say they know the Holy Spirit only moves in the Catholic Church?

So yes,there is Salvation to those who come to Christ that are not Catholic and these souls have salvation outside the Catholic Church because Christ is the only way to salvation.Some have come to believe that the Catholic Church is the only way to salvation.

 

[Louemma]

How salutary that the *Office of Readings *(April, 13) for the feast day of St Martin, Pope and Martyr (d. 656), is from St Paul (Acts 20:17-36), in which he admonishes the elders of the Church at Ephesus: “So I solemnly declare to you this very day: if any of you should be lost, I am not responsible. For I have not held back from announcing to you the whole purpose of God. Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock which the Holy Spirit has placed in your care. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He made His own through the death of His own Son. I know that after I leave, fierce wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. The time will come when some men from your own group will tell lies to lead the believers away after them. Watch, then, and remember that with many tears, day and night, I taught every one of you for three years.”

Invaded by some who want to lead others away from the truth, be watchful and listen to Christ’s Church for He gave Her to us to lead us to Him as The Way, the Truth and the Life.

This is woefully incomplete, as usual, because without the second half of justification we can lose salvation. So while anyone may be saved if they search for truth and follow their conscience as best they can, salvation by just faith in Christ is not from Christ or Paul.

If anyone was to be saved that way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, do good works, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes. Catholics also have Christ’s seven sacraments, including the Holy Eucharist, and Sacred Tradition.

So the second half is as James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

God’s Plan of Salvation: Christ, His Church, Her Scriptures, Her Tradition, His Magisterium.

I agree but works do not keep our salvation.Some believe that without works there is no salvation.Can man possibly believe that he can keep his salvation because of the works he does?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If man had the power to be able to hold on to his salvation then there would be no need for a savior.Man would still be trying to live under the law,thinking his righteous would keep him in God’s favor.There is no one righteous in God’s eye…
Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,* through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So anyone who has salvation has a desire in their hearts to do the work of the Father and that desire is put there because the Holy Spirit resides in the hearts of those who are born of the Spirit.However those works don’t keep your salvation,as if man had that ability to keep himself saved.Then that is the same as saying the work of the cross was not enough to keep a man’s soul from hell.Again this thinking is not lining up with the word of God.*

 

[Louemma]

Louemma, thanks for the smiley face. (Or was that a sneer?) Anyway, “RELIGEON” (spelled that way twice) is what exactly? Is it your particular brand of “religion”?

Your right! Only as good as the spell checker sweetie
However you seem a little angry.I will pray for your spirit to receive the Fruit of the Spirit of peace.

 

[Creary]

Bishop Hay has thoroughly treated this subject with his focus mostly on Scripture. See a significant section of it in the following five posts.

QUOTE BEGINS:

There is nothing in which the great Apostle of the Gentiles seems more to glory than in his ardent zeal for the salvation of souls, and in the sincerity of his heart in delivering to the world the sacred truths of eternity pure and uncorrupted. He was not ashamed of these Divine truths; he rejoiced when he was called to suffer for them; he had no worldly interest in view in preaching them; he sought not the esteem and favour of mean in delivering them; his only view was to promote the honour of his blessed Master, and to gain souls to Him, and therefore he had no idea of using flattering works, or of accommodating the doctrine of the Gospel to the humours of men.

He knew that the truths revealed by Jesus Christ are unalterable; that “heaven and earth shall pass away, but His words shall never pass away;” and that, therefore to corrupt these sacred words, though but in one single article, would be “a perverting the Gospel of Christ,” Gal. i. 7 — a sin so grievous, that the Holy Ghost, by his mouth, pronounces a curse upon any one, though an angel from heaven, who shall dare to be guilty of it. Hence he describes his own conduct in preaching the Gospel as follows: “Ye know from the first day that I came into Asia, in what manner I have been with you for all the time … How I have kept back nothing that was profitable to you, but have preached it to you, and taught you publicly, and from house to house,” Acts, xx. 18, 20. “We had confidence in our God, to speak to you the Gospel of God in much carefulness; … not as pleasing men, but God, who proveth our hearts; for neither have we used at any time the speech of flattery, as you know, nor taken occasion of covetousness; God is witness. Nor sought we glory of men, neither of you, nor of others,: I Thess. ii. 2, 4. “For we are not as many, adulterating the Word of God; but with sincerity, but as from God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ,” 2 Cor. ii. 17. “We renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the Word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God; … for we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord,” 2 Cor iv. 2, 5. “Do I speak to please men? If I yet pleased men I should not be a servant of Christ,” Gal. i. 10. Now “Christ sent me to preach the Gospel, not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void; for the word of the cross to them, indeed, that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God. … And it pleased God by the foolishness of our preaching to save them that believe. … For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men: … and the foolish things of the world God hath chosen, that He may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen that He may confound the strong, … that no flesh should glory in His sight,” I Cor. i. 17. “But I am not ashamed of the Gospel; for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth,” Rom. i. 16. And therefore, “I, when I came among you, came not in loftiness of speech or of wisdom, declaring to you the testimony of Christ; and my preaching was not in the persuasive words of human wisdom, but in showing of the Spirit, and in power; that your faith might not stand on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God,” I Cor. ii. 1.

 

[Creary]

QUOTE CONTINUES:

The Catholic Church, animated by the same Divine Spirit of truth which inspired this holy apostle, has at all times regulated her conduct according to the model set before her in his words and example, “earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the saints,” Jude, ver. 3; her continual care is “to keep that which is committed to her trust: pure and undefiled, “avoiding all profane novelties of words,” I Tim. vi. 20; that the sacred words of God, “one put into her mouth, may never depart from her, from henceforth and for ever,” Isa. lix. 21. She therefore knows not what it is to temporise in religion, in order to please men, nor to adulterate the Gospel of Christ to humour them; she declares the sacred truths revealed by Jesus Christ in their original simplicity, without seeking to adorn them with the persuasive words of human wisdom, much less to disguise them in a garb not their own. Truth, plain and unadorned, is the only weapon she employs against he adversaries, regardless of their censure or their approbation. “This is the truth,” she says, “revealed by God; this ye must embrace, or ye can have no part with Him.” If the world look upon what she says as foolishness, she is not surprised, for she knows that “the sensual man perceiveth not the things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand,” I Cor. ii. 14; but that “the foolishness of God is wiser than men;” and pitying this blindness, she earnestly prays God to enlighten them, “with modesty admonishing them, … if, peradventure, God may give them repentance to know the truth,” 2 Tim. ii. 25.

If ever there was a time when this conduct of the Church was necessary, the present age seems particularly to demand it. At present the gates of hell seem opened, and infidelity of every kind stalks lawless on the earth; the sacred truths of religion are reviled and denied, the Gospel adulterated by countless contradictory interpretations; its original simplicity disfigured by loftiness of speech and the persuasive words of human wisdom. A thousand condescensions and compliances are permitted in the unchangeable doctrines of faith and the pure maxims of morality, and the “narrow way that leads to life: converted into the “broad road that leads to destruction.” This observation applies particularly to that latitudinarian opinion so common nowadays, that a man may be saved in any religion, provided he lives a good moral life according to the light he has; for by this the faith of Christ is made void, and the Gospel rendered of no avail. A Jew, a Mahometan, a heathen, a deist, an atheist, are all comprehended in this scheme, and if they live a good moral life, have an equal right to salvation with a Christian! To be a member of the Catholic Church is no longer necessary; for whether we belong to her or not, if we live a good moral life, we are in the way of salvation! What a wide field does this open to human passions! What licence does it give to the caprice of the human mind! IT is therefore of the utmost consequence to examine the ground of this opinion, to see if we can safely trust our salvation to it. It is doubtless the interest of atheists and deists to adopt this opinion, to extol it with the highest praises for liberality of sentiment and charity; but a Christian who believes the Gospel will not receive it so readily: he knows that the Scriptures contain the truth of God, and that it is unsafe to trust our soul to any maxim, however specious, which is not grounded on their sacred oracles; and therefore, before he adopts it, he will rigorously scrutinise it by comparing it with what they teach.

To do this is the design of the following inquiry, or rather to show, from the precise declaration of the Word of God, that the above freethinking maxim is diametrically opposed to the light of revelation; for there we learn that the Son of God became man, and appeared among men, in order to instruct them in the knowledge of those Divine truths on which their salvation depends; and therefore that He absolutely requires true faith in Him, and in the sacred truths which He revealed, as a necessary condition of salvation. There also we learn that He instituted a holy Church on earth, to be the depository of these truths, and that He absolutely requires all to be united with that Church in order to be saved.

 

[Creary]

QUOTE CONTINUES:

The Holy Scriptures are very plain; but as the various texts propose it under different points of view, we shall, for greater clearness, consider them separately.

(I.) The prophet Isaiah, foretelling the glory of the Catholic Church, says, “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper, and every tongue that resisteth thee in judgment thou shalt condemn,” Isa. liv. 17. “For the nation and the kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish,” Isa. lx. 12. Here we see declared in express terms that all those who oppose the Catholic Church, and refuse to submit to her authority, shall be condemned by her, and shall perish. Our Saviour declares the same in still stronger terms, when He says to the pastors of His Church, in the persons of His apostles, when he sent them to preach the Gospel, “Whosoever shall not receive you, NOR HEAR YOUR WORDS, going forth out of that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment that for that city,” Mat. x. 14.

(2.) Our Savior, after instructing us to admonish our offending brother in private, or before a few witnesses, concludes thus: “If he will not hear them, tell the Church; and if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen or a publican,” Mat. xviii. 17. The heathens are those who know not the true God, and who worship idols, and the very devils themselves, instead of God. The publicans were a class of people among the Jews odious for their crimes, and looked upon by all as abandoned by God, and given over to a reprobate sense. With these, then, all who obstinately resist the voice of the Church are classed and condemned by the mouth of Jesus Christ Himself.

(3.) Our Saviour, speaking of His Church under the figure of a flock, of which He Himself is the good shepherd, says: “Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd,” John, x. 16. He is here speaking of those who were not then joined in communion with His apostles and other disciples, and He calls them at that time “His sheep;” but to show there was no salvation for them in the state in which they then were, and unless they were united to the fold, He says, “them also I must bring;” which shows that, according to the disposition of the Divine decrees, it was absolutely necessary that all who belong to Jesus Christ, all whom He acknowledges for His sheep, should be brought to, and united in communion with, that one fold, which is His Church.

(4.) In consequence of this, we are assured that, when the apostles began to publish the Gospel, “the Lord daily added to their society such as should be saved,” Acts, ii. 47; which points out in the strongest manner, by what God actually did, that the being added to the Church is a condition absolutely required by Him in order to be saved; and if that were so then, it must be so now, and to the end of the world; for the conditions of salvation, ordained at the beginning and revealed by Jesus Christ, cannot be altered by any other; and He has never made any new revelation to alter them Himself.

(5.) The Church is the body of Christ, and all who belong to the Church are members of His body, and united with Jesus Christ the head; but those who are out of the Church are not members of His body, nor are they united with Christ the head. Now, speaking of His Church and her members under the figure of a vine, with its branches, He says, “I am the vine, ye the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him the same beareth much fruit; for without Me ye can do nothing. If any one abide not in Me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth,” John, xv. 5. What Christ here says under the figure of a vince is equally true as to the members and the body; for no member separated from the body can do anything; it has neither life nor feeling, but falls into corruption: which expressly shows that if we be not united to the Catholic Church, whether we consider this Church as a body consisting of the head and members, or as a vine with its branches, we are not united with Christ,but on the way to perdition.

 

[Creary]

QUOTE CONTINUES:

Proofs from the Necessity of true Faith

(1.) Jesus Christ, addressing Himself to His eternal Father, says, “This is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent,” John, xvii 3. Hence it necessarily follows that all those who do not know Jesus Christ cannot have eternal life. Now, this knowledge of Jesus Christ is not the mere knowledge that such a person existed, but the believing Him to be what He is, the eternal Son of God, made man for the salvation of mankind; and therefore He says again, “God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him may not perish, but may have life everlasting,” John, iii. 16. Hence the believing in Jesus Christ is one condition positively required by God in order to salvation; so that without this belief there can be no salvation; for, as He Himself again declares, “He that believeth not is already condemned; because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God,” John, iii. 18; and “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him,” John, iii. 36. And the beloved disciple adds, “Many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; this is a seducer and an antichrist,” 2 John, 7. By which it is manifest that those who do not know Jesus Christ, and consequently do not believe in Him, and also those who do know that there was such a person, but refuse to believe, and confess that He is the Son of God come in the flesh, cannot be saved; and therefore, that the knowing and believing in jesus Christ is appointed by Almighty God, as an absolute condition of salvation.

(2.) But it is not enough to believe in the person of Jesus Christ; it is also required to believe His doctrine, His words, those Divine truths which He has revealed; and, indeed, how can we believe Him to be God if we refuse to believe what He says? Hence, when He gave the pastors of His Church, in the persons of His apostles, their commission to preach the Gospel, He ordered them to teach the world “to observe all those things whatsoever I have commanded you,” Mat. xxviii. 20. And He immediately adds, “He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned,” Mark, xvi. 16, — where it is manifest that the belief of His doctrine, the observance, and consequently the belief, of all those things which He commanded His apostles to teach, is a necessary condition of salvation. Nay, He adds in another part, “Whosoever shall be ashamed of Me, and of My words, in this sinful and adulterous generation, of him also the Son of Man shall be ashamed when He shall come in the glory of His Father, with His holy angels,” Mark viii. 38. now, if being ashamed of His words brings such a condemnation, what will the denying of them do? It is evident, therefore, that the true faith of Jesus Christ comprehends the belief both of His person and His words — that is, of His doctrine; and that this faith is laid down by Almighty God as a necessary condition of salvation.

(3.) As it is impossible that Jesus Christ could reveal contradictions, or say to one that anyting is true, and to another that it is false, the true faith of Jesus Christ cannot contain contradictions; it must be the same everywhere, and in no point contrary to itself. This the Scripture expressly affirms, — “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Eph. iv. 5. now, St Paul positively declares that “without faith it is impossible to please God,” Heb. xi. 6; consequently this one true faith of Jesus Christ is so absolutely required as a condition of salvation, that without it, let a man do what he will, it is impossible to please God, or be saved.

(4.) The Scripture declares that, when the apostles published the truths of the Gospel, “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed,” Acts, xiii. 48.; consequently, those who did not believe were not ordained to eternal life; whence it evidently follows that faith is a condition absolutely required by God for obtaining eternal life. For St Paul affirms, “The sure foundation of God standeth firm, having this seal, The Lord knoweth who are His,” 2 Tim. ii. 19; that is to say, God, from all eternity, most certainly knows who are His — who those are, who, by obeying His holy grace, will continue faithful to the end, and be happy with Him for ever; and all such He ordains to eternal life. When, therefore, the Scripture affirms that “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed,” it evidently shows that the belief of the truths of the Gospel, or true faith, is appointed by God as a necessary condition of salvation, as none are so ordained but those who believe.

 

[Creary]

QUOTE CONTINUES:

(5.) our blessed Saviour, speaking of those who belong to Him says, “I know mine, and mine know Me. … My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life, and they shall not perish for ever,” John, x. 13, 27. Can any words express more clearly that to know Jesus Christ, and to hear His voice, and follow him — that is, to believe and obey Him — are the distinguishing marks of His sheep, to whom He gives eternal life? Consequently, those who do not believe Him are none of His, and therefore will not be saved; as He expressly says to the Jews, “but ye do not believe, because ye are not of My sheep,” John, x. 16.; “and if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins,” John, viii. 24; which shows to a demonstration that faith in Jesus Christ is expressly appointed by Almighty God as a condition of salvation; “neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we mush be saved,” Acts, iv. 12.

(6.) St Paul, expressing that of the Psalmist, “Today if ye shall hear his voice,” etc., says, “And to whom did He swear that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were incredulous? and we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief,” Heb. iii. 18. On this account he exhorts thus: “Take heed, breathren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief to depart from the living God,” Heb. iii. 12; and again, “There remaineth a day of rest for the people of God; … let us hasten, therefore, to enter into that rest, lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief,” Heb. iv. 9, 11. In all this passage the main scope of the apostle is to show that unbelievers cannot go to heaven; and this truth is confirmed by Almighty God even with a solemn oath.

(7.) The Holy Scriptures declare that unbelievers, instead of going to heaven, shall be condemned to hellfire; and class all such with the worst of criminals. Thus the Almighty Himself declares to St John the apostle, “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death,” Rev. xxi. 8. If, therefore, Almighty God has sworn that unbelievers shall not enter into His rest, and if He declares that their portion shall be in hell, one must shut his eyes not to see that true belief, true faith in Jesus Christ and his words — namely, that faith, without which it is impossible to please God — is absolutely required by Almighty God as a condition of salvation.

(8.) The Word of God assures us that, antecedently to faith in Christ, all mankind are under sin, and that it is impossible to be justified from sin but by faith in Jesus Christ, which is set forth by God as the means of obtaining justification. Thus, “We have charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin, as it is written, There is not any man just,” Rom. iii. 9. “But the justice of God is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe in Him; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and do need the glory of God. Being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,” Rom. iii. 22. Also, “The Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe,” Gal. iii. 22.

Now, seeing that the true faith, or the firm belief of those truths which Jesus Christ revealed, is thus absolutely required as a condition of salvation, it follows as a natural consequence that out of the true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, there is no salvation, because this true faith can be found only in the true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church; to her the sacred charge of the truths of eternity was committed; the words of Jesus Christ were first put into her mouth, and an express covenant made by God, That they should never depart from her mouth. It is therefore from the pastors of the Church alone we can learn the true faith, since they alone are authorised to preach it, and in hearing them we hear Christ Himself. Hence St Paul says, “How shall they believe Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach unless they be sent?” Rom. x. 14. Now, the pastors of the Church were ordained and sent by Jesus Christ to “teach all nations, and to preach the Gospel to every creature,” consequently it is only form them that the truths of the Gospel can be learned.

END QUOTE: Again here’s the source.

 

[Louemma]

When we come right down to the question of the thread
No salvation outside the Catholic Church"

When a man comes to Christ and receives salvation and they are part of the church,just not the Catholic church but say,a Protestant Church then do we as men or women have the ability to search the heart of man.Do we know the mind of God?Can we say that brother Protestant don’t have salvation?
To this day we as Christian’s forget that we have been grafted in only for a time.If the Jews would not have rejected Christ,would salvation be possible for the Gentile?
The Jews say we have no salvation because God has no Son.
The Catholics say we have no salvation because the Protestant is not part of the body of Christ,or rather not really the body of Christ but the body of the Catholic Church.
I do wonder if the thief that hung on the cross beside Jesus was Catholic since he was promised eternal life.

 

[inkaneer]

Nope, not misguided at all. I am truly sorry that Scripture offends you. Your problem is with the writer of the Scriptures. Not with me. Every believer of The LORD Jesus Christ is an ambassador for him. Unfortunately, not many realize their ambassadorship nor have they been trained by the pastor/teacher to be an ambassador. We are to represent our LORD Jesus Christ in this sin-sick world and have been given the wonderful ministry of reconciliation. We are to rightly divide the Word of Truth in order to be approved of God. 2 Cor. 5:18-21 and 2 Tim. 2:15.
Grace and Peace,
QC

Scripture doesn’t offend me and my ‘problem’ isn’t with the writer of scripture either. For you see, I have no problem. I must admit that at times I find some posts from people like you who think they somehow were given the mantle of “Official Bible Interpreter”, to be amusing. So let’s see now, God sent eleven Apostles to the Jews only and to the rest of the world’s people He sent only one. Is that right?

 

[Abu]

Louemma
The Catholics say we have no salvation because the Protestant is not part of the body of Christ

False.
Time to wake up Louemma. You’ve learnt nothing from the truth on this thread –
That Christ’s Catholic Church teaches that all may be saved if they try to seek truth, do good and follow their consciences, being linked to His Church in some way, even pagans, through baptism of desire, implicit faith etc.
She knew this from the first: Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

Until and unless you listen to Christ through His Church you may be in the same boat as His Apostles in earlier days – to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51).
Further, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

You need wonder no more. See post #293 for Christ’s commission to Peter alone on whom He built His Church. The Church which gave us the complete Bible as the Word of God, and whose members wrote the New Testament.

Ecumenical Council Vatican II (1963-1965) explained how Protestants are related to Christ through His Church.

 

[usemelord]

My, my, my!! Both Louemma and Creary were busy, busy, busy, indeed, earlier today and Louemma, you have confirmed my first suspicion; that is, you quite obviously have just earned your degree in “Preachology, 101.” And, by the way, I hope it will gladden your heart that I am not angry. Matter of fact, I haven’t had a reason to be angry at anything or anyone since I took early retirement four years ago. I do, nonetheless, sincerely appreciate your offering a prayer for me. Just a quick story in that regard. I have befriended a homeless gentleman over the last 8-9 months named Jimmy. He is a very "gentle"man and I try to help him out in any way I can, mostly with money for food keeping in mind “whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me.” Just in the last three months or so whenever I leave Jimmy, I remind him that I’m praying for him daily. He shocked me when he replied, “I am praying for you too.” When I told that to some of my church friends, they reminded me that everyone needs prayer which perhaps I relegated only to those in need. So, having homeless Jimmy say that he was also praying for me was the ultimate compliment. Now, back to the question posed by this thread. In brief, I was a “born again” Protestant for all of sixty years, and came into the Catholic faith five years ago. Simply put, if I ever thought that there was no salvation outside the Catholic Church, I would not have converted. That said, I can tell you one additional thing for certain and that is that my faith is infinitely richer and deeper than it ever was before, and in countless ways. Through serious study and an open mind I was able to rid myself of a myriad of myths and misconceptions about the Catholic Church that I had held onto for too long. Praised be Jesus.

 

[Onevoice]

Very interesting since the Bible says in Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Funny isn’t it that Peter doesn’t say there is no other Church, or Pope, or Mary, or himself. Peter confesses that the only way to Heaven is through Christ, not the church.

As a matter of fact if you read Peters profession in Acts 4 it will disprove your misinterpretation that Christ built his church on Peter. You will rather see the truth that Christ built his church on the statement that he is the “Christ the Son of the living God”. It also amazes me that Catholics can take one chapter and verse like Matthew 16:16 to build an entire belief system. Pay particular attention to how Christ ended this topic of discussion. Matthew 16:20 “Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.”

Also It never ceases to amaze me me that Catholics, who are supposed to follow the ten commandments break so many of them within their own church system. Commandment 1. (“I am the LORD thy God… Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”)

Yet you worship the Pope, Mary, Peter, and about 100 false gods that you call saints.

Commandment 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,”

If you think I am lying look around your church the next time you walk in the door of your temple. Count how may images you see of those mentioned above and how many times one of those names are mentioned in your worship service.

Lastly commandment 4. Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Which is the worst of all commandments that Catholics break at every communion table. How you may ask?
The Bible says that Jesus died once for all yet you put him to death over and over again by supposedly drinking his blood and eating his body.

 

[Abu]

Onevoice
You speak with a forked tongue, rather than one voice in one fold with one shepherd.

You deny Christ: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
It amazes me that you can take the Sacred Scriptures of Christ’s Church and twist them to your own destruction. You wouldn’t even know of Christ without Her and Her Scriptures.

You are in an abyss of you own creation to think that Catholics “worship” statues. Perhaps you have no photographs of your loved ones, as we do. We don’t worship them either.

You deny Christ over and over: “Amen. amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me and I in Him.” (Jn 6:5-56). Now follow Jesus instead of the Jews who taunted Him, and “many of His disciples …no longer accompanied Him” (Jn 6:66) Will you also leave Him, Onevoice?

It was on that momentous occasion that His chosen, Peter, declared “We have come to believe, and are convinced, that You are the the Holy One of God.” (Jn 6:68).

“I know that after I leave, fierce wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. The time will come when some men from your own group will tell lies to lead the believers away after them. Watch, then, and remember that with many tears, day and night, I taught every one of you for three years.” (Acts 20 :29-31).

 

[Louemma]

False.
Time to wake up Louemma. You’ve learnt nothing from the truth on this thread –
That Christ’s Catholic Church teaches that all may be saved if they try to seek truth, do good and follow their consciences, being linked to His Church in some way, even pagans, through baptism of desire, implicit faith etc.
She knew this from the first: Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

Until and unless you listen to Christ through His Church you may be in the same boat as His Apostles in earlier days – to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51).
Further, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

You need wonder no more. See post #293 for Christ’s commission to Peter alone on whom He built His Church. The Church which gave us the complete Bible as the Word of God, and whose members wrote the New Testament.

Ecumenical Council Vatican II (1963-1965) explained how Protestants are related to Christ through His Church.

I understand how the Catholic think the Catholic church is the body of Christ.The body of Christ is made up of those who have salvation through Christ.This is the age old argument that many Catholic and many Protestant have never been able to agree on.
And I doubt you and I will solve this disagreement on just who are those who make up the body of Christ.Is it the Catholics because they believe their church is Christ’s body?
The people who have salvation are those who have Jesus as their Lord and Savior.Those who love the Lord and keep his commandments are those who make up the body of Christ.
As far as the Vatican goes,that is for the Catholic.
Pope St.Clement was right but I don’t need to receive confirmation from a man to know that salvation is for all who come to Christ.We can find that truth in God’s word.
Catholic and Protestant do have one thing they can agree on and that being the only way to receiving salvation(Eternal life) is through Jesus Christ the son and Jesus is the only way to the Father(that is the Father God).We also can agree that the work on the cross was enough to guarantee our salvation,which is a gift,and can not be earned or kept by works but kept through the Grace of God.
If one believes that God is a respecter of persons who believe works give them brownie points into the kingdom well these folks better wake up because they have not learned a thing about God or his Son.
If the Catholic and the Protestant could come to an agreement on Salvation,works and what it is constitutes as the body of Christ then we could move on to something else the Catholic and Protestant don’t exactly agree on either and that be praying to those of us(Meaning a mere man) that have died and went on to be with the Lord.I believe the Catholics have declared such as saints and the Protestant don’t see this as such.But that’s for another topic or disagreement

 

[Louemma]

My, my, my!! Both Louemma and Creary were busy, busy, busy, indeed, earlier today and Louemma, you have confirmed my first suspicion; that is, you quite obviously have just earned your degree in “Preachology, 101.” And, by the way, I hope it will gladden your heart that I am not angry. Matter of fact, I haven’t had a reason to be angry at anything or anyone since I took early retirement four years ago. I do, nonetheless, sincerely appreciate your offering a prayer for me. Just a quick story in that regard. I have befriended a homeless gentleman over the last 8-9 months named Jimmy. He is a very "gentle"man and I try to help him out in any way I can, mostly with money for food keeping in mind “whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me.” Just in the last three months or so whenever I leave Jimmy, I remind him that I’m praying for him daily. He shocked me when he replied, “I am praying for you too.” When I told that to some of my church friends, they reminded me that everyone needs prayer which perhaps I relegated only to those in need. So, having homeless Jimmy say that he was also praying for me was the ultimate compliment. Now, back to the question posed by this thread. In brief, I was a “born again” Protestant for all of sixty years, and came into the Catholic faith five years ago. Simply put, if I ever thought that there was no salvation outside the Catholic Church, I would not have converted. That said, I can tell you one additional thing for certain and that is that my faith is infinitely richer and deeper than it ever was before, and in countless ways. Through serious study and an open mind I was able to rid myself of a myriad of myths and misconceptions about the Catholic Church that I had held onto for too long. Praised be Jesus.

Thank You for your story and testimony.It truly was a blessing to read.Continue my friend in doing the good works by helping those who can not help themselves.I bet you do these works not because you feel as it is required of you but because of the Love of God that is in you that touches your heart to reach out to others in need.
BTW… I don’t have a 101 in preachology