Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

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Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well as I understand it there are no Baptists in heaven because Baptists have no way to deal with the expiation of sin. The Baptist method of treating Jesus as just a carpet under which they sweep the dirt [sin] so they can say that Jesus covered their sin is not biblical. Jesus said He was the Door, the Good Shepherd, the Vine and the Bread come down from heaven but He never said He was a carpet.

Jesus said the following:
*"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil {man} out of the evil {treasure} brings forth what is evil; ***for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. ****

No Baptist in heaven as though salvation does not transcend all denominations. I know many Baptist and do not know one that believes that sin is not an issue to be taken seriously; in fact until you deal with your sin issue before God you will not see the Kingdom; what a callous blanket statement to make; it speaks of your heart more than you know. I pray God will convict you of your sin against other brothers and sisters in Christ and for some humility and to love your neighbors, the baptist Christians, as yourself.
What sin have I committed? Salvation is open to everybody but not everybody is saved. This is not about taking sin seriously or not. It is much more serious than that. Revelation says of heaven that nothing unclean will enter it. Sin is uncleanliness. A person with unremitted sin will not enter heaven no matter how much he loves Jesus. Jesus left his Apostles a means of dealing with sin when after His Resurrection He appearred to them and breathing on them said. “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them and whosoever sins you retain they are retained.” The ‘whosoever’ means anyone. The Apostles received the power to forgive the sins of others. But Baptists, along with other protestants, do not have this power nor do they claim it so how are their sins forgiven? If Jesus really covered our sins why do the epistle writers say we are to avoid sin? It is too easy to say Jesus paid the price for sin and think it is forgiven. But sin has to be dealt with either now or later and later is too late.
 
Please go back and read all the posts on this thread which is quite detailed and does elaborate fully. Many people have taken a lot of time and spent considerable time in prayer to develop this thread. May God bless you and may the Holy Spirit be with you.
You do not need to answer the question from your personal perspective. i did not think you would since I do not think you have an answer from your own perspective. Sending one to read 400 plus posts is kind of ridiculous and not really plausible. So just forget I asked…thanks…Beth
 
Jesus of Nazareth is very clear in giving us His Church to show us the way.

His Church teaches, and emphasises in Her Sacred Scriptures that to live as Christ wants we must love and obey:
“Love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Rom 13:10). The new commandment is: “Love one another as I have loved you.” (Jn 13: 34-35). If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21).
“He became the source of salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9). “It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Two warnings: “Unless one be born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:5). To the Galatians (3:7): For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Secondly, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.” (Jn 6:53).
Thus, from the first, the faithful “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42). So, as Jesus commanded, His Church has the Eucharist (Holy Mass), His seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of the pope, Her Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures.

Christ’s Catholic Church teaches that all may be saved if they try to seek truth, do good and follow their consciences, being linked to His Church in some way, even pagans, through baptism of desire, implicit faith etc.

She knew this from the first: Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].
I’m doomed on those standards. Thanks for the information. I do not know anyone that is able to keep His commandments whcih are the summing up of the law and the prophets and I think that is Jesus point; with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. - do you follow?
 
What sin have I committed? Salvation is open to everybody but not everybody is saved. This is not about taking sin seriously or not. It is much more serious than that. Revelation says of heaven that nothing unclean will enter it. Sin is uncleanliness. A person with unremitted sin will not enter heaven no matter how much he loves Jesus. Jesus left his Apostles a means of dealing with sin when after His Resurrection He appearred to them and breathing on them said. “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them and whosoever sins you retain they are retained.” The ‘whosoever’ means anyone. The Apostles received the power to forgive the sins of others. But Baptists, along with other protestants, do not have this power nor do they claim it so how are their sins forgiven? If Jesus really covered our sins why do the epistle writers say we are to avoid sin? It is too easy to say Jesus paid the price for sin and think it is forgiven. But sin has to be dealt with either now or later and later is too late.
If you do not see you sin, then you do not see it. You are making the claim that you know who are saved and who are not and you condemn those that disagree with you; this is God’s place. Anyone who can give the gospel message can forgive or retain sins; the power is in the message not the person who delivers the message. Matthew 18:18 Jesus was preaching to a crowd of disciples and said the same thing; it applies to all Christians.
 
You do not need to answer the question from your personal perspective. i did not think you would since I do not think you have an answer from your own perspective. Sending one to read 400 plus posts is kind of ridiculous and not really plausible. So just forget I asked…thanks…Beth
Consider it forgotten. And may the Holy Spirit guide you in your quest for knowledge and understanding.
 
There are no non-Catholics in Heaven. No, not even one.
I beg to differ with you on this matter. If you believe the Bible, the word of God, not man, then please read the following:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. :extrahappy:
I know that I am saved and I know I am going to Heaven, by His word, not yours.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
I beg to differ with you on this matter. If you believe the Bible, the word of God, not man, then please read the following:
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. :extrahappy:
I know that I am saved and I know I am going to Heaven, by His word, not yours.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Greetings in the LORD, Saved Lady!

This passage from Romans 10 is best understood as a baptismal confession. When Peter explains this passage from Joel on the day of Pentecost (cf. Acts. 2:21), the required response of the people was to “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself” (Acts 2:38-39). Paul understood this to be true of his own baptism as well in that it was at his own baptism that he called upon the Name of the Lord unto salvation: “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His Name” (Acts 22:16).

When we are baptized, we receive the Catholic faith until we forfeit it through heresy or schism or by apostatizing.

I hope you have a blessed day!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
Greetings in the LORD, Saved Lady!

This passage from Romans 10 is best understood as a baptismal confession. When Peter explains this passage from Joel on the day of Pentecost (cf. Acts. 2:21), the required response of the people was to “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself” (Acts 2:38-39). Paul understood this to be true of his own baptism as well in that it was at his own baptism that he called upon the Name of the Lord unto salvation: “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His Name” (Acts 22:16).

When we are baptized, we receive the Catholic faith until we forfeit it through heresy or schism or by apostatizing.

I hope you have a blessed day!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
I see nowhere in that verse where it talks about Baptism. It says in Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Baptism is how we profess that we are saved by the Grace of God.
And I also hope you have a blessed day!
Your Sister in Christ,
Susan;)
 
I see nowhere in that verse where it talks about Baptism. It says in Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Baptism is how we profess that we are saved by the Grace of God.
And I also hope you have a blessed day!
Your Sister in Christ,
Susan;)
Thank you, Saved Lady!

Baptism is also the means by which we receive that grace of God. Paul tells us that we “are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith” (Rom 3:24-25). It is Christ’s blood, i.e., His death on the cross, that propitiates God’s wrath and justifies us. His death. But Christ was also “raised for our justification” (Rom 4:25). And so it is specifically Christ’s death and resurrection that bring justification. “For the death He died He died to sin” (Rom 6:10), and “We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him” (Rom. 6:9). “For one who has died has been set free [justified] from sin” (Rom 6:7). The question becomes, “How does God effect our union with Christ so that we can die and rise with Him and thereby be justified in Him?” Paul tells us “that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” and “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:3; 4). Again, we were “buried with Him in baptism, in which [we] were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised Him from the dead” (Col 2:12). “Baptism… now saves you… through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet 3:21).

We know that justification entails the forgiveness of sins. “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven” (Rom 4:7). And we saw in the previous post that the forgiveness of sins was bestowed in baptism (cf. Acts 2:38-39; 22:16). We see now that baptism unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection, which together serve as the principle works of God in Christ meriting our justification. So when we come to Romans 10, and we hear Paul asserting that “the righteousness based on faith says, ‘Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘ “Who will descend into the abyss?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead),” we see the language of the effect of baptismal grace, which unites us to Christ in His death and resurrection. We understand that Paul is saying that our faith is able to lay us down with Christ in the grave, and raise us back up again with Him in heaven, precisely because the gift of grace that God bestows in baptism makes our faith in Him a justifying faith, a saving faith that unites us to Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27), and because of this baptism you now have “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27). And “If… you have been raised with Christ [through faith in baptism], seek the things that are above, where Christ is… For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:1; 3).

The Bible teaches that faith justifies. It also teaches that justification takes place in baptism. This is why Catholics believe that both Protestants and Catholics are justified “by faith in baptism,” because the same Catholic faith is infused in all of us as a gift at the time of our baptism. If this were not true, we would be justified by faith before we are baptized. But now it is that we receive justification, regeneration, faith, hope, and love all at the same time when we are baptized. The faith that we have by the prevenient grace of God before coming to baptism is not of the same nature as the faith that we receive in baptism. It is at our baptism that we call upon the name of the LORD and are saved (cf. Acts 22:16; Rom 10:13). Protestants and Catholics who have been baptized share the same Catholic faith until they forfeit it through heresy or schism or by apostatizing.

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
 
So the position of the Church has been very consistent over the centuries, and the doctrine as it appears to exist today is a huge departure from that stance. I can understand and appreciate XBaptist’s confusion.
I would agree that it appears that since Vatican II, the RCC has taken a much softer stance on the possibility of salvation for individuals who are not Roman Catholic. The quotations cited by the post-er clearly are pretty strong statements. In essence, Vatican II redefined what it meant to be “Catholic.”
 
Regarding the bizarre statements from the Catechism (regarding salvation of Muslims, etc), I dunno - I think I am going to have a hard time trusting the Catechism.
Greetings in the LORD, XBaptist!

When Lumen Gentium (quoted in the Catechism) says that “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator,” and gives the first place to Muslims, it is not saying that they are therefore saved. God’s “plan of salvation” includes all people because God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). John Paul II wrote that each person “is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united Himself for ever through this mystery” (Redemptor Hominis). He went on to say that all of us “are unbreakably linked with Christ,” whether we ultimately receive “salvation” or suffer “perdition.”

When we are talking about “the plan of salvation” including this or that person or group of persons, we are talking about the fact that Christ died for all, even those who go to hell. This is why John Paul II wrote that “Abraham heard the word of the Lord which took him away from his own land, from his people, from himself in a sense, to make him the instrument of a plan of salvation which embraced the future people of the Covenant and indeed all the peoples of the world” (Letter Concerning Pilgrimages to the Places Linked to the History of Salvation).

“The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: ‘There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer’ ” ( 605CCC).

In Christ,
Pete
 
Well as I understand it there are no Baptists in heaven because Baptists have no way to deal with the expiation of sin. The Baptist method of treating Jesus as just a carpet under which they sweep the dirt [sin] so they can say that Jesus covered their sin is not biblical. Jesus said He was the Door, the Good Shepherd, the Vine and the Bread come down from heaven but He never said He was a carpet.
So tell me if I am understanding you correctly … anyone who is a Baptist (or any non-Roman Catholic) has no way to deal with the expiation of sin–and therefore, cannot receive salvation. Thus, your understanding of “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” literally means a person cannot be saved unless he is literally a Roman Catholic? The “forgiveness of sin” issue (i.e., lack of absolution by a priest) was, as I recall, a major reason why the RCC in the past said non-Catholics couldn’t be (or would have a hard time being) saved. I seem to recall that the Baltimore Catechism specifically lists the failure of Protestants to obtain such absolution as making salvation for them very difficult.
 
We know that justification entails the forgiveness of sins. “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven” (Rom 4:7). And we saw in the previous post that the forgiveness of sins was bestowed in baptism (cf. Acts 2:38-39; 22:16). We see now that baptism unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection, which together serve as the principle works of God in Christ meriting our justification. So when we come to Romans 10, and we hear Paul asserting that “the righteousness based on faith says, ‘Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘ “Who will descend into the abyss?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead),” we see the language of the effect of baptismal grace, which unites us to Christ in His death and resurrection. We understand that Paul is saying that our faith is able to lay us down with Christ in the grave, and raise us back up again with Him in heaven, precisely because the gift of grace that God bestows in baptism makes our faith in Him a justifying faith, a saving faith that unites us to Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27), and because of this baptism you now have “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27). And “If… you have been raised with Christ [through faith in baptism], seek the things that are above, where Christ is… For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:1; 3).

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
From Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology:
Code:
When we say that God imputes Christ’s righteousness to us it means that God
thinks of Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, or regards it as belonging to us. He
“reckons” it to our account. We read, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to
him as righteousness” (Rom. 4:3, quoting Gen. 15:6). Paul explains, “To one who
does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as
righteousness. So also David pronounces a blessing upon the man to whom God
reckons righteousness apart from works” (Rom. 4:6). In this way, Christ’s
righteousness became ours. Paul says that we are those who received “the free gift of
righteousness” (Rom. 5:17).
This is the third time in studying the doctrines of Scripture that we have
encountered the idea of imputing guilt or righteousness to someone else. First, when
Adam sinned, his guilt was imputed to us; God the Father viewed it as belonging to
us, and therefore it did.2 Second, when Christ suffered and died for our sins, our sin
was imputed to Christ; God thought of it as belonging to him, and he paid the penalty
for it.3 Now in the doctrine of justification we see imputation for the third time.
Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, and therefore God thinks of it as belonging to
us. It is not our own righteousness but Christ’s righteousness that is freely given to us.
So Paul can say that God made Christ to be “our wisdom, our righteousness and
sanctification and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30). And Paul says that his goal is to be
found in Christ, “not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which
is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith” (Phil.
3:9). Paul knows that the righteousness he has before God is not anything of his owndoing; it is the righteousness of God that comes through Jesus Christ (cf. Rom. 3:21–
22).4
It is essential to the heart of the gospel to insist that God declares us to be just or
righteous not on the basis of our actual condition of righteousness or holiness, but
rather on the basis of Christ’s perfect righteousness, which he thinks of as belonging
to us. This was the heart of the difference between Protestantism and Roman
Catholicism at the Reformation. Protestantism since the time of Martin Luther has
insisted that justification does not change us internally and it is not a declaration based
in any way on any goodness that we have in ourselves. If justification changed us
internally and then declared us to be righteous based on how good we actually were,
then (1) we could never be declared perfectly righteous in this life, because there is
always sin that remains in our lives, and (2) there would be no provision for
forgiveness of past sins (committed before we were changed internally), and therefore
we could never have confidence that we are right before God. We would lose the
confidence that Paul has when he says, “Therefore, since we are justified by faith we
have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1).5 If we thought of
justification as based on something that we are internally we would never have the
confidence to say with Paul, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who
are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). We would have no assurance of forgiveness with
God, no confidence to draw near to him “with a true heart in full assurance of faith”
(Heb. 10:22). We would not be able to speak of “the free gift of righteousness” (Rom.
5:17), or say that “the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom.
6:23).

Continued in the next post…
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
What sin have I committed? Salvation is open to everybody but not everybody is saved. This is not about taking sin seriously or not. It is much more serious than that. Revelation says of heaven that nothing unclean will enter it. Sin is uncleanliness. A person with unremitted sin will not enter heaven no matter how much he loves Jesus. Jesus left his Apostles a means of dealing with sin when after His Resurrection He appearred to them and breathing on them said. “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whosoever sins you forgive they are forgiven them and whosoever sins you retain they are retained.” The ‘whosoever’ means anyone. The Apostles received the power to forgive the sins of others. But Baptists, along with other protestants, do not have this power nor do they claim it so how are their sins forgiven? If Jesus really covered our sins why do the epistle writers say we are to avoid sin? It is too easy to say Jesus paid the price for sin and think it is forgiven. But sin has to be dealt with either now or later and later is too late.
If you do not see you sin, then you do not see it. You are making the claim that you know who are saved and who are not and you condemn those that disagree with you; this is God’s place. Anyone who can give the gospel message can forgive or retain sins; the power is in the message not the person who delivers the message. Matthew 18:18 Jesus was preaching to a crowd of disciples and said the same thing; it applies to all Christians.
Where did I make any claim as you indicate that I know who are saved and who are not and condemn those that disagree with me? That is a false and fraudulent accusation. I judged no one. But you, how about you? Where in scripture does it say that “anyone who can give the gospel message can forgive or retain sin”? You made that up out of thin air. We are to forgive others who trespass against us personally and we will be forgiven by the same measure that we forgive others. But we do not have the option to retain sin for if we do then our sin will be retained too. But in John 20:23 Jesus gives the authority to the Apostles to forgive the sins of anyone, not just those who sin against us personally but anyone. Jesus said:

“23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:23] RSV

The KJV has it:

"23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.: [John 20:23] KJV

The word translated as ‘whose’ is the Greek word tis and it means ‘any’ or ‘any man’. This is not just for those who sin against the Apostles personally but anyone. They also can retain sin so it is not forgiven. Quite a different scenario than that of a personal sin.

Matthew 18:18 is the binding and loosening power given to the Apostles as a group when united with Peter. Has nothing to do with forgiving sin except that authority is given from Jesus to the Apostles.
 
Continued from previous post:
Code:
The traditional Roman Catholic understanding of justification is very different from this. The Roman Catholic Church understands justification as something that changes us internally and makes us more holy within. “According to the teaching of the Council of Trent, justification is “sanctifying and renewing of the inner man.”’ In order for justification to begin, one must first be baptized and then (as an adult) continue to have faith: “The instrumental cause...of the first justification is the Sacrament of Baptism.” But “the justification of an adult is not possible without Faith....As far as the content of justifying faith is concerned, the so-called fiducial faith does not suffice. What is demanded is theological or dogmatic faith (confessional faith) which consists in the firm acceptance of the Divine truths of Revelation.” Thus baptism is the means by which justification is first obtained, and then faith is necessary if an adult is to receive justification or to continue in the state of justification. Ott explains that “the so-called fiduciary faith” is not enough—
meaning that the faith that simply trusts in Christ for forgiveness of sins is not enough. It must be a faith that accepts the content of the teaching of the Catholic Church, “theological or dogmatic faith.”
The Roman Catholic view may be said to understand justification as based not on
imputed righteousness but on infused righteousness—that is, righteousness that God
actually puts into us and that changes us internally and in terms of our actual moral
character. Then he gives us varying measures of justification according to the measure
of righteousness that has been infused or placed within us. The result of this Roman Catholic view of justification is that people cannot be sure if they are in a “state of grace” where they experience God’s complete acceptance and favor. The Catholic Church teaches that people cannot be certain that they are in this “state of grace” unless they receive a special revelation from God to this effect. The Council of Trent declared,
If one considers his own weakness and his defective disposition, he may well be fearful and anxious as to the state of grace, as nobody knows with the certainty of faith, which permits of no error, that he has achieved the grace of God. To this statement Ott adds the comment, The reason for the uncertainty of the state of grace lies in this, that without a special revelation nobody can with certainty of faith know whether or not he has fulfilled all the conditions which are necessary for the achieving of justification. The impossibility of the certainty of faith, however, by no means excludes a high moral certainty supported by the testimony of conscience.
Moreover, since the Roman Catholic Church views justification as including something that God does within us, it follows that people can experience varying degrees of justification. We read, “The degree of justifying grace is not identical in all the just” and “grace can be increased by good works.” Ott explains how this Catholic view differs from that of the Protestant Reformers: “As the Reformers wrongly regarded justification as a merely external imputation of Christ’s justice, they were obliged also to hold that justification is identical in all men. The Council of Trent, however, declared that the measure of the grace of justification received varies in the individual person who is justified, according to the measure of God’s free distribution and to the disposition and the co-operation of the recipient himself.”
Finally, the logical consequence of this view of justification is that our eternal life with God is not based on God’s grace alone, but partially on our merit as well: “For the justified eternal life is both a gift of grace promised by God and a reward for his own good works and merits…Salutary works are, at the same time, gifts of God and meritorious acts of man.” To support this view of justification from Scripture, Ott repeatedly mingles passages from the New Testament that talk not only of justification, but also of many other aspects of the Christian life, such as regeneration (which God works in us), sanctification (which is a process in the Christian life and which of course does vary from individual to individual), the possession and use of various spiritual gifts in the Christian life (which differ from individual to individual) and eternal reward (which also varies according to the individual). To classify all of these passages under the category of “justification” only blurs the issue and ultimately makes forgiveness of sins and right legal standing before God a matter of our own merit, not a free gift from God. Therefore, this blurring of distinctions ultimately destroys the heart of the gospel.
That is what Martin Luther so clearly saw and that is what gave such motivation to the Reformation. When the good news of the gospel truly became the good news of totally free salvation in Jesus Christ, then it spread like wildfire throughout the civilized world. But this was simply a recovery of the original gospel, which declares, “The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23), and insists that “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1).
 
Greetings in the LORD, Saved Lady!

This passage from Romans 10 is best understood as a baptismal confession. When Peter explains this passage from Joel on the day of Pentecost (cf. Acts. 2:21), the required response of the people was to “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself” (Acts 2:38-39). Paul understood this to be true of his own baptism as well in that it was at his own baptism that he called upon the Name of the Lord unto salvation: “And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His Name” (Acts 22:16).

When we are baptized, we receive the Catholic faith until we forfeit it through heresy or schism or by apostatizing.

I hope you have a blessed day!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete
If Baptism by water saves one person in the NT then God changes because He did not save people in that way in the OT and does He saves both the same way & He does NOT change…by His grace in faith in Jesus.

Saved Lady knows exactly what Romans 11 says and she stated it correctly.

"is best understood as a baptismal confession" - what in the world is this doctrine?
It is always best to allow Scripture to speak for itself; so going back to Acts 9 we have Anaias laying hands on Paul, receiving the HS, getting up and as a fist act of obedience, getting water baptized. At what point was Paul acually saved? Upon receivng the Holy Spirit or the water? You decide.

Here is what John the Baptist said:
***"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; ***He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ****and fire. 12 “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” **
17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

Here is what Peter had to say concerning the order of things: “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.”

This is the consistent pattern within the entire NT; Acts 2:38, when put into the gramatical format renders the same sequence without changing the context of the passage.

It can be shown at least 3 other areas in Scripture where the same consistent pattern exists; it has to otherwise God has changed how He saves and if God changes His charater or attribute, then He is the God of change and a liar since He says He does not change. My 2 pennies worth.

Since i know little about Catholicism; I am going out on a limb and say that Catholic doctrine teaches that water Baptism removes sin? Correct me if that is not correct; I have already learned some surprising things already.

May God bless you!!

Beth
 
If Baptism by water saves one person in the NT then God changes because He did not save people in that way in the OT and does He saves both the same way & He does NOT change…by His grace in faith in Jesus.

Saved Lady knows exactly what Romans 11 says and she stated it correctly.

"is best understood as a baptismal confession" - what in the world is this doctrine?
It is always best to allow Scripture to speak for itself; so going back to Acts 9 we have Anaias laying hands on Paul, receiving the HS, getting up and as a fist act of obedience, getting water baptized. At what point was Paul acually saved? Upon receivng the Holy Spirit or the water? You decide.

Here is what John the Baptist said:
***"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; ***He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ******and fire. 12 “His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

Here is what Peter had to say concerning the order of things: “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.”

This is the consistent pattern within the entire NT; Acts 2:38, when put into the gramatical format renders the same sequence without changing the context of the passage.

It can be shown at least 3 other areas in Scripture where the same consistent pattern exists; it has to otherwise God has changed how He saves and if God changes His charater or attribute, then He is the God of change and a liar since He says He does not change. My 2 pennies worth.

Since i know little about Catholicism; I am going out on a limb and say that Catholic doctrine teaches that water Baptism removes sin? Correct me if that is not correct; I have already learned some surprising things already.

May God bless you!!

Beth
No need to go out on a limb, The CCC is available on-line. This is introductory paragraph on the sacrament of baptism.

CCC said:
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
 
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