Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[fxcc]

I know many a person who will readily confess that Jesus is Lord and without a doubt will say that Jesus died was buried and on the third day rose from the dead and they are the biggest sinners around.

Oh, that’s a contradiction Protestants will easily dismiss: the person concerned wasn’t **really **saved to begin with - presumably due to some shortcoming in his/her profession of faith in Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and Savior! Besides, according to the father of Protestantism himself (Mr Luther) “no amount of sin will separate us from the love of our Lord”, presumably even on Judgment Day, so hey, why torture yourself worrying about it?

Hmmm…

Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong wrote an excellent piece a while back, on the powerful synergies between Protestantism and Secularism which goes a long way to clarify why the average Protestant would much rather wallow in a mire of lies and heresies than make a sincere effort to step out into the Light. There is a very powerful set of selfist psychological factors at play, holding back these victims of untruth, which propagators of Truth do well to understand. I’m appending a link to the article. It’s a tiny download of 20 kb.

The many contradictions of Protestantism that Dave points out include:

• claiming human intellect corrupted by sin, and yet using personal intellect alone to understand and defend revelation;
• claiming faith is totally gratuitous and without human contribution, yet challenging people to make a commitment in faith;
• saying all that we need to guide our lives is in the Bible, yet unable to verify this in the Bible;
• claiming we can be certain of our salvation, yet doubting that those who renounce their faith or behave in a way markedly contrary to it were ever really saved;
• claiming to be a return to the beliefs of early Christianity, yet dismissing Catholic elements in early Christian writings;
• escaping lack of historical evidence for Protestant beliefs in the early church by claiming the true church was always invisible (and evidently inaudible), yet having no problem tracing its historical development since the Reformation.

Francis

sharesend.com/un424

 

[fxcc]

Besides, according to the father of Protestantism himself (Mr Luther) “no amount of sin will separate us from the love of our Lord”, presumably even on Judgment Day, so hey, why torture yourself worrying about it?

Before anyone can jump in to claim that all Luther meant by the above statement was that God loves sinners as well (which we Catholics acknowledge) the (con)text of what he said was:

Be a sinner and sin boldly … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day. (Martin Luther - Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther’s Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82)

This entire thread is already crawling with so many lies, I wouldn’t want to provide a platform for another one… although I suspect they’ll keep coming anyway…

 

[Des]

You are missing the entire point. How can you distinqguish a real Christian from a fake one; generally speaking?

Hi Beth. It’s irrelevant whether He can distinguish or not. The fact is, according to you, if you’re among the chosen (lucky) ones that God has picked out to save, then Paul is preaching in vain since you don’t need to be warned not to sin. Husbands and wives do not need to be told not to commit adultery. Because they will persevere. Now as for the non saved as you call these Christians, Paul again would be preaching in vain because God has not picked them to save nor will anything they do, save themselves.

But in reality, Paul is obviously warning ALL CHRISTIANS not to sin, since the servant of sin, Christ says will only inherit hell fire and not Heaven.

Jesus said you will know both the true and the false by their fruits. Keep this in mind. The ones who are of God will persevere and bear fruit because of two things 1) the power of God indwelling to both persevere and to bear fruit and 2) they are true Christians.

You admitted to sinning beth. A sinner never brings good fruit. Your relationship has to be repaired with God before this can happen and only the Sacrament of Confession will help you.

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

This brings me to another point. When dealing with sin it must be dealt with prior to entering the narrow gate. This is one of the core reasons people never make it into the Kingdom of God, they never came to God with true repentance or turning away from their sin and toward God and holiness.

Sorry Beth. But for you to sit there and tell me that everybody who was Baptized and didn’t persevere didn’t originally have a sincere heart to God is nonsense. You, a self proclaimed Christian may sin as much if not more than the non Christians. If anything, that would seem like a far worse crime against God than a non Christian sinning since he would not have the Holy Spirit to assist him. For you to suggest it’s ok to rebel against God (each and everytime you sin) when you’re saved than it is for someone to rebel against God (the sin of not first accepting Christ who comes to him) is pure ignorance.

I John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

As long as you are in the flesh, which is till the day one dies, one will continue to sin.

Sounds like an excuse to sin. You cannot sin against God and continue to see and know him at the same time.

I Peter 1:15. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as you father which is in heaven is perfect."

And not everyone has to sin.

John the Baptists parents for example:

Luke 1:6 And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.

***Apoc 14:3-5 “…***and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: 5 And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God.”

Have you ever met a Christian that did not sin?

I would not know since I do not have your gift to read the hearts of men.

That is why I tell you if you use the standards you are presenting, which is out of context with the the work of the Holy Spirit, then no one will ever enter the Kingdom, not even the Apostle Paul.

You must put this whole things in the context of Romans 7, listen to Paul:
***17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ***18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Will Continue on next post

Paul is talking about the inclination to sin.

 

[Des]

I have spoken about this before, but how God works out that we are constantly encouraged to carry on and to carry on, yet at the same time God has done it all is a paradox I cannot understand,

It’s only because you’re working off bad theology and poor doctrine as to why you can’t make sense of this. As I said before, it fits perfectly in the Salvation process that the Church professes.

Read James Chapter 1. He’s talking to Christians and clearly warning them yet again in how to act. If I were to believe your doctrine Beth, I’d be telling James that like Paul, He’s preaching in vain since they are either saved and know the truth of God, or are not among the elect who can’t ever be helped.

Read Mathew Chapter 5. Again, more warnings to Christians. The New Testament is full of them yet you turn your head 180 to avoid seeing it.

"19 You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. 20 For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. 21 Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass."

 

[Beth_Martin]

You’ve been had.
That was Satan posing as God.
God wouldn’t advise you to leave the Church (the **only **Church, yeah, the **Catholic **Church) which He founded.
Every heretic says God revealed things to him/her. And it’s always something against His Church that God supposedly “revealed”.

God reveals to me things about Him everytime I read His word, so everyone who reads the Bible is a heritic. Sound reasoning.

 

[Des]

God reveals to me things about Him everytime I read His word, so everyone who reads the Bible is a heritic. Sound reasoning.

Have you ever been wrong in your interpretation of Scripture Beth?

 

[Beth_Martin]

You say “I believe my friend is in heaven…” But you do not know, now do you? And no one can be sure they will be in heaven. The Apostle Paul certainly didn’t. In Matthew 10:22 Jesus tells the Apostles, " and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." How do you know you will endure to the end? And will some please show me where scripture says we can be assured that we will be [not can be but will be] saved.

If you were to come back to the Catholic Church you would not have the false presumption of something that scripture does not speak of. Instead It will pointed out to you that this false presumption of salvation is nothing more than the sin of pride manifesting itself in you as it did in Lucifer. For Lucifer also presumed that He would ascend into heaven [Isaiah 14:13] and was cut down to hell. As a Catholic, instead of saying, “I am saved” what you will say is, “I am saved now, I am being saved and when I die, I hope to be saved” As a Catholic you presume nothing but every day you pick up your cross and follow Jesus just like He said. I know. Protestantism is a whole lot easier than Catholicism but then even the Apostles wondered about who can be saved whren Jesus told them, “… it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Scriptures record that when the Apostles heard this, "…they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” Protestantism provides an wide open gate to a false salvation but the narrow gate of Catholicism is the way to saving one’s soul. Peter warned of this false teaching of salvation. He said:

“20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” [2 Peter 1:20-21; 2:1]

And who were these false teachers? Calvin, Luther and Zwiglii and all the protestant ministers who followed them down to the present day.

Doesn’t your church on the right hand have a list of saints they have stated that they know are in heaven but on the left hand they say it is a sin of presumption? So is the Church violating her own standard and if not why? Look at the stories of her saints, which some are mere myths and have been declared saints including people that never even existed. This is the problem when one makes itself infallible, equal to God, in certain pronouncements. All religions do the same thing which is what makes the relationship with Jesus so essential because one must enter through Him to have eternal life and there is no other Name given to men to which one can be saved and one mediator between man and God, Jesus.
The good news is that God extends and calls and has predestined the elect from all tribes and tongues so we can expect to see Catholics and Protestants and Jews alike in heaven on the basis of faith alone in Christ alone, isn’t that the greatest!!

**The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ** ------ You see God has always saved by the basis of faith alone whether the OT saints or the NT saints; He does not change and is an immovable rock of salvation for those that come by faith alone.

*But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. * But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

 

[Abu]

Beth Martin
Your argument is circular for the Scripture gives the church the authority based on the authority of Scripture and at the same time the Church has the authority to interpret that same authority? Also, their were 12 apostles of Christ.

THINK, of your absurdity expressed above. For all readers, the falsehood of circularity is shown in the reality that:

1. The documents of Scripture are HISTORICAL – it is absurd to claim that Scripture is inspired without the authority of God to know that it is inspired.
2. However, HISTORICALLY, the documents of Scripture relate that the man Jesus claimed to be sent by God, claimed to be God, proved His claim by His miracles and His Resurrection, established His Church on St Peter to continue His teaching until the end of time.
3. HIS CHURCH, HISTORICALLY ESTABLISHED, then teaches what writings form God’s Word and that all of those writings, and no others, are inspired by the Holy Spirit. No one else can decide what books are inspired or has any authority to do so.

When the Twelve are sent on mission, they are told by Christ “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words…shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10: 14-15).

Those who don’t know their history need to. The authorisation, coming from Christ’s Vicar and His Church, didn’t fall out of thin air, but from Christ’s mandate to teach all that He had commanded.

Since the facts prove the certification and authorisation of the Sacred Scriptures by Christ’s Catholic Church (O.T & NT) from His Vicar as the canon of the Scriptures for use as the inspired Word of God, all attempts to evade these truths merely show not only the false god of private interpretation but privation and deprivation for those so victimised.

As we have seen the Church Christ founded on Peter was given His full authority. In Mt 18:17, His Church is presented as a compact, visible, external, social, defined body, with powers to exclude the recalcitrant from its society akin to the pagans and the Jewish tax collectors, which Our Lord is prudently providing for when He will not be at hand to settle difficulties.

Immediately Christ continues to give His apostles some of the powers (Mt 18:18) He has already given to Peter who is the one foundation (the Rock), the ultimate authority on earth, of the Church – the new hierarchical society.
Peter often spoke for the rest of the Apostles (Mt 19:27; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69). The Apostles are sometimes referred to as “Peter and his companions” (Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7; Acts 2:37). Peter’s name always heads the list of the Apostles (Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13). Finally, Peter’s name is mentioned 191 times, which is more than all the rest of the Apostles combined (about 130 times).

After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter initiated the election of the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

“So great fear came upon all the Church and upon all who heard these things. And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.” (Acts 5:11-13).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

St. Clement died about 80 A.D., some 20 years before the last Apostle, St. John, died. Although St. John was still alive in Ephesus, which was much closer to Corinth than was Rome, the Corinthians appealed to the Bishop of Rome because he had the “keys” of authority. Pope Clement wrote to the Church at Corinth: “You, there who laid the foundation of the rebellion, submit to the presbyters and be chastened to repentance, bending your knees in a spirit of humility.” (First Letter To The Corinthians, 57, 1; Jurgens, p. 12.) And again, “If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger.” (First Letter To The Corinthians, 59, 1; Jurgens, p. 12.)

BTW, after the apostasy of Judas, leaving eleven apostles until after the Resurrection, it was St Peter, exercising the supreme authority given Him by Christ, who took charge and initiated the choosing of Judas’ replacement – Matthias.

 

[OlgaMaria]

XBaptist
I too was confused.
I know people who arent catholic by ignorance who do good and have a religious life and there are catholics who say they are catholics and arent such do gooders

Thanks for posting that question and thanks to all who replied now I understand.

 

[Abu]

QuikCat (# 690)
Did the so called church fathers believe that Peter was the “rock” that our LORD would build His church on? I don’t think so. Catholic historians have written about the “fathers” believing that our Lord was either speaking of Himself or the Peter’s confession. Check out von Dollinger

False – Fr von Dollinger, to whom you refer, became a heretic by rejecting the dogma of Vatican I on papal infallibility. Get your history right and you will be on the way to reality.

All faithful Catholics from the beginning of the Catholic Church know that Peter is the Rock on which Jesus built His Church. Such falsehoods fuel the errors of some on this DB.

On St Peter, scholarly commentary identifies that Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic ‘Kepha’ into Greek. Catholicism And Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, 1988, Ignatius, p 207].

“Transliteration” means to represent words in the characters of another alphabet. Convert David B Currie puts it this way:”[Kepha] transliterated into English, can be written ‘Cephas’.“ Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, 1996, Ignatius, p 76]. Since “Kepha” is the only Aramaic word for rock, Currie points out that Jesus said: “I tell you that you are Rock (Kepha) and on this Rock (Kepha) I will build my Church.”

“Sur” was the chief biblical word for rock, and the Psalms emphasised that God was the only Rock (sur). “Being closely synonymous with “sur”, the name Kepha could not help but evoke in pious Jews, as all the twelve were, a sentiment of awe and reverence.” And On This Rock, Fr Stanley L Jaki, OSB, 1987, Trinity Communications, p 77].

The Swiss Calvinist biblical scholar, Oscar Cullman, declared …”the Roman Catholic exegesis must be regarded as correct.” (See Peter, Apostle, Disciple, Martyr, 1953, p 18-20).

Paul calls Peter “Cephas” quite often.
1 Corinthians 1:12: What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”

1 Corinthians 3:22: whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future, all are yours;

1 Corinthians 9:5 Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?

1 Corinthians 15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days.

Galatians 2:9 and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised;

 

[fxcc]

Have you ever been wrong in your interpretation of Scripture Beth?

How dare you even suggest such a ridiculous hypothesis?
You who’re traipsing with the rest of us unelected ones down that broad road of destruction known as one, holy, catholic and apostolic?

 

[Beth_Martin]

I can’t help but notice you didn’t answer the questions. In any case, do you think God will hold it against Catholics that demonstrate their faith with works of love? Don’t you understand that Jesus asked for more than words? He said, " come follow me"

Works are the fruit of true faith, the kind which God recognizes, not the faith that says God does some and I do some and together we work out “my” salvation. The other end of the scale says I believe I have true faith and as the Hymn says “come just as you are”, then leave “just as they were”, which is not true faith either. Charles Finney is the one that popularized that in the modern day, but even the Apostle Paul had to deal with that erroneous thinking. The bottom line is taking Christ as Savior and denying His Lordship is not faith at all and at the same time having faith because of something someone did or an act or acts they perform to earn and keep that salvation is no faith either.

All true faith will produce fruits of righeousness out of the love for God; so whether Catholic, Methodist, Orthodox, Baptist or otherwise will be what God expects because it is He that prepared the works that the Christian would walk in them. Does that answer your question?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Quote:

And no one can be sure they will be in heaven.

What was the purpose for the letter of 1 John? He states the very purpose of the letter and it contradicts the statement above. This is not the only contradiction to that statement either.

That’s why we have the sacrament of confession given to the church by Jesus. See John 20:23. Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to His Church. Unlike Matthew 18:21 when Peter asked Him how many times should he forgive someone that sinned against him personally in John 20:23 Jesus tells them they can forgive or retain the sins of anyone.

John 20:23 was told to the disciples less Thomas, not the Roman Catholic Church. Loosing and binding are the same concept, which Jesus told all of his followers, true followers in Matthew 18. The reason why this is true is because it is not the power of a human person to forgive sins but rather the acceptance or rejection of the gospel that removes sin or retains them based on the only one that can forgive sins, which is God.

**Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of Your name; And deliver us and forgive our sins for Your name’s sake. **

**"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" **

**The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” **

We can forgive one another when we hurt each other and that pleases God, but the forgiveness of sins against God can only be removed by God, that was one main purpose of the cross.

Timothy was not Paul’s son, he was his disciple. Paul was celebate or at least he claimed to be. Can scripture be wrong [1Cor 7:8] ? Paul was Timothy’s father in the same way priests are called Father. It was a spiritual fatherhood.

Paul refered to Timothy as his son because of his love he had for him as a parent to a child; not out of spiritual superiority or authority otherwise Paul and makes God a liar for Jesus said call no man Father, Teacher or Rabbi in the spiritual authoritative teaching sense of the word; a truth that is denied by many. Jesus gives the reason; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. The Catholic explanation given misses the point that Jesus is telling us; that there is but one Spiritual teacher with true authority from heaven verses calling your dad as father, which is recognizing an eartly or carnal authority over his child. Catholic doctrine blends the two by refusing to recognize the distinction that Jesus made between the Spiritual authority in heaven and the earthly parental authority on earth. that is the difference as I read the article of explanation in light of what Jesus said.

And will some please show me where scripture says we can be assured that we will be [not can be but will be] saved.

***1John 5:13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. *
**
**For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, **

**"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. **

**For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. **

**"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." **

There are many many more that could be listed as well; but there is no guesswork for the true believer. One either rests on the promises & wisdom of God or on the fallacy & wisdom of men.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Oh, that’s a contradiction Protestants will easily dismiss: the person concerned wasn’t **really **saved to begin with - presumably due to some shortcoming in his/her profession of faith in Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and Savior! Besides, according to the father of Protestantism himself (Mr Luther) “no amount of sin will separate us from the love of our Lord”, presumably even on Judgment Day, so hey, why torture yourself worrying about it?

In the preface of Martin Luther’s Commentary on Romans, he wrote this, “Faith is not something dreamed, a human illusion although this is what many people understand by the term. Whenever they see that it is not followed either by an improvement in morals or by good works, while much is still being said about faith, they fall into the error of declaring that faith is not enough, that we must do works if we are to become upright and attain salvation. The reason is that when they hear the gospel they miss the point. In their hearts and out of their own resources they conjure up an idea which they call belief which they treat as genuine faith. All the same, it is but a human fabrication, an idea without a corresponding experience in the depths of the heart. ***It is therefore ineffective and not followed by a better kind of life,” ***

“Faith, however, is something that God effects in us. It changes us and we are reborn from God. Faith puts the old Adam to death and makes us quite different men in heart, in mind and in all our powers. And it is accompanied by the Holy Spirit. Oh, when it comes to faith, what a living creative active powerful thing it is. It cannot do other than good at all times. It never waits to ask whether there is some good work to do, rather before the question is raised, it has done the deed and keeps on doing it. A man not active in this way is a man without faith. He is groping about for faith and searching for good works but knows neither what faith is nor what good works are. Nevertheless he keeps on talking nonsense about faith and good works. It is impossible indeed to separate works from faith just as it is impossible to separate heat and light from fire,”

John 2:23 Jesus was in Jerusalem at the Passover , many believed in His name. Keep that in mind for a second. Many believed in His name, which is who He was no doubt believing Him to be the great prophet, many believing Him to be the long awaited Christ. They believed in seeing His signs & wonders He was doing. However Jesus on His part was not entrusting Himself to them for He knew all men and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man for He Himself knew what was in the hearts of all men and He knew their faith was not a true and saving faith. They believed but their believing was not acceptable because it was not genuine. There was not saving faith.

***John 2:23-25 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man. ***

Simply put, He had no faith in their faith. He did not believe in their “so called” believing. They believed that He was the Messiah or the Christ, that doesn’t mean they gave up their souls to His Lordship. They witnessed His power over demons and disease but that doesn’t mean they were willing to turn from their sin and tuen toward Him. He did know their belief was shallow at best and not genuine. He knew the genuine work of the Spirit of God was missing. So many will claim to believe and many will even act out the part of a Christian, but their hearts are far from Him and that is a phony faith, which is no faith at all. This is why we say to one that “falls away” were never of us and their faith was never the genuine saving faith that God prepares and gives.

 

[paul_c]

Works are the fruit of true faith, the kind which God recognizes, not the faith that says God does some and I do some and together we work out “my” salvation. The other end of the scale says I believe I have true faith and as the Hymn says “come just as you are”, then leave “just as they were”, which is not true faith either. Charles Finney is the one that popularized that in the modern day, but even the Apostle Paul had to deal with that erroneous thinking. The bottom line is taking Christ as Savior and denying His Lordship is not faith at all and at the same time having faith because of something someone did or an act or acts they perform to earn and keep that salvation is no faith either.

All true faith will produce fruits of righeousness out of the love for God; so whether Catholic, Methodist, Orthodox, Baptist or otherwise will be what God expects because it is He that prepared the works that the Christian would walk in them. Does that answer your question?

So having said that, would you agree that Catholics do everything non-Catholics do to be saved and more (Iike recieve the sacraments)? And if that’s the case, what is your issue with the Catholic Church? Does it ask too much for the Lord?

 

[mpjw2]

I hope you will repent and be saved. Your ultimate destination is still undecided.
And Satan doesn’t care if you have joy and peace. He often uses that to lead people astray…

thank you Paul…

as i live my daily life there is not a day I do not sin and I am not talking about just the 10 commandments, I am talking about being prideful, jealous, angry, scared. etc…

I confess and repent every day to keep myself clean in my walk with God. then on the final day whenever that is I will have made a confession like I always do, having done so I would be clean aand forgiven of all sin and after I take my last breath …I will be in the presence of Almight God for eternity

Paul if everything I just said comes to fruition…do you believe there still might be a chance God will not accept me into heaven?

if yes…please explain

 

[mpjw2]

Justification to to be declared righteous before God; a one time event that occurs the moment God deems one to right in His sight based on hearing and believing the gospel. immediately the sanctification process begins, which is lifelong and where the Christian becomes more and more conformed to image of Christ while we wait for the full redemtoption which occurs at death when we get rid of the sinful flesh.

Catholic believe that justification is not a one time event, but rather is a lifelong process as sacntification is, which is why they believe they can not only loose their salvation, but also regain what was lost. hope that helps.

thank you beth

Now I understand you better

God bless you

 

[mpjw2]

Works are the fruit of true faith, the kind which God recognizes, not the faith that says God does some and I do some and together we work out “my” salvation. The other end of the scale says I believe I have true faith and as the Hymn says “come just as you are”, then leave “just as they were”, which is not true faith either. Charles Finney is the one that popularized that in the modern day, but even the Apostle Paul had to deal with that erroneous thinking. The bottom line is taking Christ as Savior and denying His Lordship is not faith at all and at the same time having faith because of something someone did or an act or acts they perform to earn and keep that salvation is no faith either.

All true faith will produce fruits of righeousness out of the love for God; so whether Catholic, Methodist, Orthodox, Baptist or otherwise will be what God expects because it is He that prepared the works that the Christian would walk in them. Does that answer your question?

well stated beth:thumbsup:

 

[paul_c]

What was the purpose for the letter of 1 John? He states the very purpose of the letter and it contradicts the statement above. This is not the only contradiction to that statement either.

this is what John says in 1John2: let’s use a little color coding. The Green is what Evangelical’s / protestants focus on. the Red is the rest of the story. Catholic Theology includes both parts,

1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world. 3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.
7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8 And yet I do write a new commandment to you, which holds true in him and among you, for the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.
11 Whoever hates his brother is in darkness; he walks in darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 12 I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have conquered the evil one.
14 I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God remains in you, and you have conquered the evil one.
15 Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, sensual lust, 8 enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17 Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life. 26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.
27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.
28 And now, children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not be put to shame by him at his coming.
29 If you consider that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who acts in righteousness is begotten by him.

Notice the red lines, which are generally not understood by Protestants include refutations of sola Fide: You must not commit sin and you must keep the commandments and do the will of God.

It condemns those that have left the church as being unannointed.

It also condemns the concept of OSAS, calling on us to remain in Christ

 

[mpjw2]

So having said that, would you agree that Catholics do everything non-Catholics do to be saved and more (Iike recieve the sacraments)? And if that’s the case, what is your issue with the Catholic Church? Does it ask too much for the Lord?

Hi paul,

I look forward to your answers to my questions in #755

In that post I answered your 3 questions to beth including the one you are asking here

this was my answer…

from #755

What do you believe Catholics do towards their salvation that you don’t do?

I’ll bet you can name several things, including partaking of the sacraments.

I responded…

Actually no I can not…

I partake in the sacraments…but it is different

Eucharist…I have communion at church

you believe the host is the actual body of Christ

I have a spiritual remembrance of Jesus at the last supper
I do not believe the bread and “wine” change to the body and blood of Christ

Reconciliation…you confess to a priest

I confess directly to God in prayer

and from Beth’s posts, I believe her answer will be quite similiar

having said that Paul, is their anything else besides the sacraments you believe Catholics do towards your salvation that I don’t do?

thank you

God bless

mpjw