Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Abu]

mpjw2
Paul the only thing I do not believe about what you just said is purgatory.

You’ve missed out: The Book of Machabees teaches that “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Mac 12:46)

But the NT has: “Not all sin is deadly.” (1 Jn 5:17), and “Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” (Rev 21:27).

So what is missing in the confusion is the doctrine of Purgatory, which is why Catholics pray for the departed.

 

[anthony022071]

Whether that is true or not, I don’t know. I do know there is no biblical support for that notion whatsoever.

The authority of the Church is prior to the authority of scripture and it is sufficient. It was the Church that validated the books of the New Testament. They were written by members of the Church,and obviously the authors thought that Jesus and the apostles performed real miracles.

 

[mpjw2]

You’ve missed out: The Book of Machabees teaches that “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” (2 Mac 12:46)

But the NT has: “Not all sin is deadly.” (1 Jn 5:17), and “Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” (Rev 21:27).

So what is missing in the confusion is the doctrine of Purgatory, which is why Catholics pray for the departed.

Abu…
I know why Catholics pray for the departed…whether one believes in purgatory or not is not the issue at hand…

Catholics do believe If a person gets into purgatory …the next stop is heaven,right?

there is no way a person who is in purgatory will go to hell…right?

thank you.

God bless

 

[Abu]

The issue IS REALITY – and the truth is Christ who has given of His fullness to us in His Church – the Church militant, the Church suffering and the Church triumphant.

His Magisterium with all of His teaching, Her Tradition, Her Sacred Scriptures, seven sacraments, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, His priesthood. It is up to you to respond to His generosity. Those who lack any of these have the opportunity to freely respond to Him through His Bride.

 

[paul_c]

The issue IS REALITY – and the truth is Christ who has given of His fullness to us in His Church – the Church militant, the Church suffering and the Church triumphant.

His Magisterium with all of His teaching, Her Tradition, Her Sacred Scriptures, seven sacraments, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, His priesthood. It is up to you to respond to His generosity. Those who lack any of these have the opportunity to freely respond to Him through His Bride.

My friend, you are using vocabulary here that will be completely incomprehensible to non-Catholics. I suggest you translate for them so they understand that for example the Church militant is the Church on earth, the church suffering are those members in purgatory and the Chruch trimphant are those in heaven. His bride is the Church. etc…

 

[mpjw2]

Don’t you see how insecure you are about your salvation? You continually are asking us Catholics if we think you might not get to heaven. That is your conscience prodding you to change.

Don’t you get it? You have separated yourself from God’s grace that is available only through valid sacraments. Until you re-enter the Church (which if I understand your situation correctly, would only require a contrite confession to the priest) , you will not get the peace you seek. You would like to believe that saying you are saved makes it so, but deep down you know that this is not true. THe Holy Spirit is calling you home. Be grateful for his mercy and follow through with what you know deep down you need to do.

Paul I like this from you

I am sorry but here are my thoughts using your very words…

Paul…Don’t you see how insecure you are about your salvation? You have not answered my simple question…

if you are in a state of grace right now and should die right now …Do you believe you are saved and will go to heaven?

yes or no?

and if not heaven at least to purgatory and then to heaven?

but the fact is you are saved at the exact moment you are in a state of grace should you die right then, at that moment…right?

Is your conscience prodding you to say that you are in fact saved at that moment only?.

Don’t you get it?

You are completely covered by God’s grace that is available only through what you believe are the Catholic churches’ valid sacraments after a sincere contrite confession

are you afraid that saying you are saved at the moment after a confession you are lying to yourself?

but deep down do you know it is true?

Is the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart?. Be grateful for his mercy and follow through with what you know deep down you need to do and accept the free gift He is offering you

the wages of sin is death. but the ***gift of God is eternal life ***in Jesus Christ. Romans 6:23

God bless you

mpjw

 

[Des]

if you are in a state of grace right now and should die right now …Do you believe you are saved and will go to heaven?

yes or no?

and if not heaven at least to purgatory and then to heaven?

but the fact is you are saved at the exact moment you are in a state of grace should you die right then, at that moment…right?

Is your conscience prodding you to say that you are in fact saved at that moment only?.

Don’t you get it?

You are completely covered by God’s grace that is available only through what you believe are the Catholic churches’ valid sacraments after a sincere contrite confession

are you afraid that saying you are saved at the moment after a confession you are lying to yourself?

but deep down do you know it is true?

Is the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart?. Be grateful for his mercy and follow through with what you know deep down you need to do and accept the free gift He is offering you

God bless you

mpjw

I’m not sure if you’re undstanding Paul correctly but a Catholic who’s soul has mortal sin on it, is saved each and everytime He/She goes to Confession.

Those of us who die in a state of Grace still may go to Purgatory, depending on the amount of Indulgences or sufferings we’ve offered while in this state of Grace.

It is only if we die in a Perfect state of Grace that we will go directly to Heaven. Baptized babies, or anyone who has just been Baptized and die immediately, will go straight to Heaven with no stop in Purgatory.

 

[mpjw2]

I’m not sure if you’re undstanding Paul correctly but a Catholic who’s soul has mortal sin on it, ***is saved ***each and everytime He/She goes to Confession.

Those of us who die in a state of Grace still may go to Purgatory, depending on the amount of Indulgences or sufferings we’ve offered while in this state of Grace.

It is only if we die in a Perfect state of Grace that we will go directly to Heaven. Baptized babies, or anyone who has just been Baptized and die immediately, will go straight to Heaven with no stop in Purgatory.

Well thank you Des for comfirming what I been trying to get paul and other catholics to say …exactly what you just said

It was Paul who was misunderstanding me.

Des and all Catholics there are many non catholic christians who believe the same exact way Des just expressed.

When I say ***I am saved ***it means **I just confessed to God at that moment **and my soul, just like yours, is in a state of grace and **at least for that moment in time **I will go to heaven or you believe purgatory **should I die ONLY at that moment **.

I do realize my souls condition may change 5 minutes from that moment…but right at the exact moment after confession I am saved by God just like you are.

we all agree???

As I mentioned in another post there are a lot of Christians who take being saved the wrong way with the OSAS attitude…

Something to the effect…they prayed a sinners prayer 20 years ago so now they are saved for the rest of their life…and they can live and sin any way they want and do not have to worry about their destination because they are saved

no wonder non catholic Christians have a bad reputation…there are too many people who call themselve Christian who have this attitude about christianity and salvation

My prayer is that before we utilize the sin of “assumption”, God give us the wisdom of understanding and for us to ask the right questions so that we can see what is truly in a person’s heart.

when the right questions are asked…it will save a lot of time and confusion

look at the following exchange between Paul and I …

Paul is confused because he made false assumptions about me…

Posted by paul c

I am now confused.

ok lets unconfuse you

Weren’t you the person who said in the other thread that the reason you left the catholic church was because you went to a Baptist funeral for your friend and felt Joy that everyone knew he was going to heaven because he beleived in Jesus.

yes…

Now you are advocating against OSAS

I always was you just did not see what I was saying

and aligning with the Catholic belief that you must do good works to get to heaven.

not necessarily…I know what catholics believe …that is why I left the church but** I do not believe in OSAS either.**

Once you say that, then the logical extension is that you must always to those works, until you die. And therefore, there is no assurance of heaven.

I know that is what you believe…I do not and here is why…for the reason you are about to say

If you have just committed a mortal sin, you know that you are not (in a state of grace). But no one knows what the future holds for them so predicting that you will go to heaven is rather foolish.

note: “in a state of grace” I inserted for clarification

**agree 100% however **…lets not talk about future

As for knowing your current salvation status, this is possible.

***really?? ok we are now getting somewhere …it is what I have been trying to communicate all along ***

If you have just been absolved of all your sins, you know that you are currently in the state of grace.

agree 100%

and if that is true, would I go to heaven? …if not heaven then at least purgatory if I die at the precise moment I am in a state of grace?

in other words if I were to die right now after confession in a state of grace …am I saved at this very moment? whereas my destination would be at least purgatory and then onto heaven?

please do not say anything about future…am I saved right now should I die right now in a state of grace?

des your post answered yes to all the above questions …correct me if I am wrong

Is there anyway I would or anyone would go to hell in a state of grace?

des your post answered no to this question…correct me if I am wrong

Des, I believe your post to me comfirmed that catholics believe they are saved right after confession

I am hear to let you know that there are non catholic christians who believe in salvation in the same exact way you do

the only difference is we make our confession directly to God in prayer and we will also confide with our spouse, loyal friend, pastor, counselor etc to be held accountable and to pray for us to be strong against satans temptation to sin again.

thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[Des]

Well thank you Des for comfirming what I been trying to get paul and other catholics to say …exactly what you just said

It was Paul who was misunderstanding me.

Des and all Catholics there are many non catholic christians who believe the same exact way Des just expressed.

When I say ***I am saved ***it means **I just confessed to God at that moment **and my soul, just like yours, is in a state of grace and **at least for that moment in time **I will go to heaven or you believe purgatory **should I die ONLY at that moment **.

I do realize my souls condition may change 5 minutes from that moment…but right at the exact moment after confession I am saved by God just like you are.

we all agree???

As I mentioned in another post there are a lot of Christians who take being saved the wrong way with the OSAS attitude…

Something to the effect…they prayed a sinners prayer 20 years ago so now they are saved for the rest of their life…and they can live and sin any way they want and do not have to worry about their destination because they are saved

no wonder non catholic Christians have a bad reputation…there are too many people who call themselve Christian who have this attitude about christianity and salvation

My prayer is that before we utilize the sin of “assumption”, God give us the wisdom of understanding and for us to ask the right questions so that we can see what is truly in a person’s heart.

when the right questions are asked…it will save a lot of time and confusion

look at the following exchange between Paul and I …

Paul is confused because he made false assumptions about me…

Posted by paul c

ok lets unconfuse you

yes…

I always was you just did not see what I was saying

not necessarily…I know what catholics believe …that is why I left the church but** I do not believe in OSAS either.**

I know that is what you believe…I do not and here is why…for the reason you are about to say

note: “in a state of grace” I inserted for clarification

**agree 100% however **…lets not talk about future

***really?? ok we are now getting somewhere …it is what I have been trying to communicate all along ***

agree 100%

and if that is true, would I go to heaven? …if not heaven then at least purgatory if I die at the precise moment I am in a state of grace?

in other words if I were to die right now after confession in a state of grace …am I saved at this very moment? whereas my destination would be at least purgatory and then onto heaven?

please do not say anything about future…am I saved right now should I die right now in a state of grace?

des your post answered yes to all the above questions …correct me if I am wrong

Is there anyway I would or anyone would go to hell in a state of grace?

des your post answered no to this question…correct me if I am wrong

Des, I believe your post to me comfirmed that catholics believe they are saved right after confession

I am hear to let you know that there are non catholic christians who believe in salvation in the same exact way you do

the only difference is we make our confession directly to God in prayer and we will also confide with our spouse, loyal friend, pastor, counselor etc to be held accountable and to pray for us to be strong against satans temptation to sin again.

thank you and God bless

mpjw

mpjw, I’m in a hurry so I’ll say this quickly. Since you are not confessing yourself the proper way as Jesus willed us to, then I can’t say for certain, the way I can say for certain that a Catholic is saved after Confessing his sins to a Priest. Yours is not a Sacrament. Ours is. That is our belief. We leave everything up to God for those outside of the Church. The only thing that can save you is invincible ignorance according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Paul
I wanted to reply to your responses here …I am sorry I forgot all about them

1. What do you believe you have to do toward Salvation that other Christians do not also have to do?

To be saved, all people have to recieve sacramental grace, starting with Baptism. This puts them in the state of Grace. No man can be saved without the Grace of God. They then need to stay in the state of grace until death to achieve heaven. To do this, they must avoid mortal sin and love God and Neighbor.** If someone does fall from grace through sin, they can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation.**

I agree 100 %

Now(is this “not”) many non-Catholic Christians have valid baptism so they can achieve heaven if they subsequently avoid mortal sin and love God and Neighbor

.

what do you believe is valid baptism?
do you believe baptism has to be in a catholic church for one to be saved?

However, if they fail to do so, they do not have a valid means of reconciling to God. this is a great disadvantage. They also have a great disadvantage in that being separated from the eucharist, they do not gain the regular graces that help to improve their souls.

I admire the strength of your faith and the power of the Eucharist.
I know you do not accept how I celebrate communion so I will not go there

1. What do you believe Christians need to do towards their salvation that you don’t need to do?

Nothing. If you fulfill the requirements taught by the catholic church you will enter heaven.

I was hoping you would say that
again I admire your faith

1. Can you say that anything other Christians do is actually detrimental to his/her soul?

Yes, unfortunately. First of all they separate themselves from the Church and its sacraments. That is hugely detrimental to his/her soul. Many try to pry Catholics away from the one true faith, This is also detrimental to their souls. And many mislead themselves into false doctrines like sola fide and sola scriptura through their own fanciful interpretations of the bible. This is also detrimental to their souls.

Paul there are baby christians and there are mature christians…we are ALL God’s miraculous work in progress …the christians you refer to might be the immature ones and have a lot of learning to do. and if they are the mature…lets pray for them for understanding .

we were all “baby” christian at one time, the fact is we may encounter a baby christian who is 65 years old. think about that. The immature christians may be the ones who are trying to pry you away for they do not know any better at the time.

Take heart there are many christians like me that honor and respect you belief and faith and would do nothing to change that.​

I talked to some catholics and they do not believe and can not accept in their heart of hearts that Mary was a virgin.

they tell me it is a physical impossibility for a women to become pregnant without a sperm fertilizing the egg.

btw…I do not believe just because they do not believe Mary was a virgin will prevent God from welcoming them home.

Are you insinuating that Catholics are deficient because they let God be the judge?

no, what would give you that impression?

Knowledgeable, well catechized Catholics believe that the Bible is in fact the infallible word of God when properly interpreted .

I do too

We also believe that Mary was concieved without sin, led a sinfree life and died still a virgin.

a difference in belief but will not prevent the one who is wrong from being saved

What do you believe Catholics do towards their salvation that you don’t do?

I’ll bet you can name several things, including partaking of the sacraments.

I partake in the sacraments…but it is different

Well, having valid sacraments is a huge difference.

Is it your belief then it may cost me my salvation?

Everyone can identify things Catholics do that other Christians don’t but no one has ever been able to show that any of these things are detrimental to the soul.

because what you do is NOT detrimental to your soul

So why then, are you trying to teach Catholics to do less?

Paul and all catholics …hear me when I say this…

God bless and praise God for you and the whole catholic family for doing all they do to expand God’s family. I would never encourage anyone to do less than they already are doing

It is a fact that 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

there is nothing, I repeat nothing I believe you do which is detrimental to your soul

I have asked these questions dozens of times. There has never been one person who could identify something they do that the Catholics lack.

The only thing I can think of, as I stated previously, is to believe in your own salvation …

may I add now since des post,

you are saved should you die in a state of grace right after confession:

I have now come to believe that the reason you are on the site is because you seek to validate your own choices. It would be a disservice for us to tell you that separating yourself from the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church was an acceptable choice.

I hope and pray you see the reason I am hear

God bless you Paul

 

[mpjw2]

mpjw, I’m in a hurry so I’ll say this quickly. Since you are not confessing yourself the proper way as Jesus willed us to,

I respect your belief and that is why …

then I can’t say for certain, **the way I can say for certain that a Catholic is saved **after Confessing his sins to a Priest.

you see Des you just said what Catholics have been tellling me you will never hear a catholic say…being certain of their salvation

you said it in this post and the last

Salvation is God’s promise to you for this moment after confession and being restored to grace…right?.

I believe deep down in my heart my sincere confessions are heard and my sins are forgiven by God and my soul is restored to grace

I am not sure you believe the same about my confession and I am not asking you to believe

All I am saying is I believe when I confess to God has the same results when you confess

We as christians have to maintain a daily state of grace.also… and if you are like me sometime an hourly state of grace (confession) on bad days. There are days I feel like all I am doing is confessing to God my sin.

Do you see what I am saying?

Yours is not a Sacrament. Ours is. That is our belief.

I know …Sacraments has great meaning to Catholics…I respect that and admire the fact that you desire the sacraments for everyone

God bless you for that.

I partake in all your sacrements but one holy orders…

I am not a pastor or priest

their may be a slight variation in the way we partake in other six .

as to whether or not it will cost me my salvation at the end…

I believe deep down in my heart it won’t

you might believe it just might

Thank God you are not God

I can promise you that I feel as close to God as you do. without God in my life…I am nobody

We leave everything up to God for those outside of the Church

I agree …everything is up to God…but discussion among christian brethern sure helps in understanding issues at hand:thumbsup:

. The only thing that can save you is invincible ignorance according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

i read it and does not make sense to me

here is what makes sense…

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life John 3:16

Because of this verse and many more … is the reason I ***believe I am saved ***at the moment after confession ***and only at the moment ***my soul is in a state of grace.

I am saved and so are you

Declare Salvation…it is God’s gift to you at the moment only… immediately after confession

God bless

 

[Pete_Holter]

I believe deep down in my heart my sincere confessions are heard and my sins are forgiven by God and my soul is restored to grace

I am not sure you believe the same about my confession and I am not asking you to believe

All I am saying is I believe when I confess to God has the same results when you confess

I know …Sacraments has great meaning to Catholics…I respect that and admire the fact that you desire the sacraments for everyone

God bless you for that.

I partake in all your sacrements but one holy orders…

Greetings, brother!

If you reject anything revealed by God through His Church, you are rejecting God. If you reject, for example, the fact that Mary remained a virgin her whole life, then you are rejecting God’s great work of grace in her. If you do this with obstinacy, then you will be culpable of heresy and place yourself outside the Church, and outside the hope of salvation.

If you are not celebrating the sacrament of our Lord’s Body and Blood at Mass, either in the Catholic Church or in one of the Orthodox Churches, then you are not receiving His Body and Blood. You are not partaking of this Sacrament of our Salvation. You are partaking of a piece of bread and some juice or wine, and that is all. This is all the difference in the world: the difference between Jesus, our Creator-King, and a piece of bread. I hope you will come celebrate with us!

In Christ,
Pete

 

[paul_c]

MPJW,
Let’s review briefly where we are right now.

You left the Catholic Church because you felt the joy that the Baptists had for your dead friend because he was saved. Yet, you denounce the fundamental Baptist teaching (OSAS) that allowed them to believe he was saved in the first place.

You practice all the sacraments from the Catholic faith, but without the validity of an ordained priesthood to administer them. You believe that if you silently confess your sins that this has the same effect as we get in the sacrament of reconciliation.

You agree that there is nothing that the Catholic Church does that is detrimental to salvation and you seem to believe that you do everything a Catholic does in terms of salvation.

You claim to be here to seek unity with Catholics.

So tell me again, why are you not a Catholic?

 

[QuickCat]

Yeah we have a list of those people WHO HAVE DIED that we call saints. The difference is these saints are unable to sin anymore because their earthly life is over. In addition saints now go through a lengthy investigation of every aspect of their lives. Also scripture records that Peter was given the keys to heaven but Jesus retained the keys to hell. That is why we can declare this person or that person is in heaven but the church has never said any one person was in hell. Now contrast that with protestantism which has no authority in heaven, hell or on earth which does no investigation whatsoever and in which individual protestants can presume they are saved before they die. Huge difference !!!

Peter was given the keys to the “kingdom of heaven.” He wasn’t given the keys to heaven. The keys indicate real authority in the coming kingdom that our Lord speaks of in Matthew 19:28. This is when the “keys” will be used. When our Lord Jesus Christ sits on David’s throne in Jerusalem and the 12 sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. We have a preview of the use of the keys in early Acts when the kingdom was being offered to Israel - Acts 3:19-21. When this kingdom is set up on earth John 20:21-23 will come into play. BTW, the only saints known to the Bible are those who are saved - Paul writes to the “Saints” at Corinth, etc.

 

[inkaneer]

Correct. EDWARD JL seems unaware of scope of the infallibility conferred by Christ on Peter and his successors.

This EWTN answer clarifies the scope of papal infallibility:

**Answer by David Gregson on Nov-22-2002 (EWTN): **
You are correct in stating that the Pope exercises his charism of infallibility not only in dogmatic definitions issued, ex cathedra, as divinely revealed (of which there have been only two), but also in doctrines definitively proposed by him, also ex cathedra, which would include canonizations (that they are in fact Saints, enjoying the Beatific Vision in heaven), moral teachings (such as contained in Humanae vitae), and other doctrines he has taught as necessarily connected with truths divinely revealed, such as that priestly ordination is reserved to men. Further details on levels of certainty with which the teachings of the Magisterium (either the Pope alone, or in company with his Bishops) may be found in Summary of Categories of Belief.

Yes but this has not always been the case. Saints especially martyrs at one time were declared by public declaration and not by actual canonization.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi Beth. It’s irrelevant whether He can distinguish or not. The fact is, according to you, if you’re among the chosen (lucky) ones that God has picked out to save, then Paul is preaching in vain since you don’t need to be warned not to sin. Husbands and wives do not need to be told not to commit adultery. Because they will persevere. Now as for the non saved as you call these Christians, Paul again would be preaching in vain because God has not picked them to save nor will anything they do, save themselves.

But in reality, Paul is obviously warning ALL CHRISTIANS not to sin, since the servant of sin, Christ says will only inherit hell fire and not Heaven.

You admitted to sinning beth. A sinner never brings good fruit. Your relationship has to be repaired with God before this can happen and only the Sacrament of Confession will help you.

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit."

Sorry Beth. But for you to sit there and tell me that everybody who was Baptized and didn’t persevere didn’t originally have a sincere heart to God is nonsense. You, a self proclaimed Christian may sin as much if not more than the non Christians. If anything, that would seem like a far worse crime against God than a non Christian sinning since he would not have the Holy Spirit to assist him. For you to suggest it’s ok to rebel against God (each and everytime you sin) when you’re saved than it is for someone to rebel against God (the sin of not first accepting Christ who comes to him) is pure ignorance.

**I John 3:9 **“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Sounds like an excuse to sin. You cannot sin against God and continue to see and know him at the same time.

I Peter 1:15. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as you father which is in heaven is perfect."

And not everyone has to sin.

John the Baptists parents for example:

Luke 1:6 And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and justifications of the Lord without blame.

***Apoc 14:3-5 “…***and no man could say the canticle, but those hundred forty-four thousand, who were purchased from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb: 5 And in their mouth there was found no lie; for they are without spot before the throne of God.”

I would not know since I do not have your gift to read the hearts of men.

Paul is talking about the inclination to sin.

It saddens me a great deal Des because you neither understand sin or understand God and how He has dealt and deals with our sin. It must be very tense being Catholic for you will always be constantly concerned about sinning and that very worrying will bring you into more sin because you will and do fail everyday and you will continue to be frustrated figuring out why you can’t get it right. Or the other side is you never really worry too much because you just go to a confessional and do a few acts of goodness and reset the sin-meter. I don’t have anything else to add or say because i am at a loss of words for my heart really goes out to you in love dear brother.

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

Have you ever been wrong in your interpretation of Scripture Beth?

Yes and you?

 

[Beth_Martin]

THINK, of your absurdity expressed above. For all readers, the falsehood of circularity is shown in the reality that:

1. The documents of Scripture are HISTORICAL – it is absurd to claim that Scripture is inspired without the authority of God to know that it is inspired.
2. However, HISTORICALLY, the documents of Scripture relate that the man Jesus claimed to be sent by God, claimed to be God, proved His claim by His miracles and His Resurrection, established His Church on St Peter to continue His teaching until the end of time.
3. HIS CHURCH, HISTORICALLY ESTABLISHED, then teaches what writings form God’s Word and that all of those writings, and no others, are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
   Immediately Christ continues to give His apostles some of the powers (Mt 18:18) He has already given to Peter who is the one foundation (the Rock), the ultimate authority on earth, of the Church – the new hierarchical society.
   After Peter, the most frequently mentioned Apostle is John, whose name appears 48 times. Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter initiated the election of the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

“So great fear came upon all the Church and upon all who heard these things. And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.” (Acts 5:11-13).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

St. Clement died about 80 A.D., some 20 years before the last Apostle, St. John, died. Although St. John was still alive in Ephesus, which was much closer to Corinth than was Rome, the Corinthians appealed to the Bishop of Rome because he had the “keys” of authority. Pope Clement wrote to the Church at Corinth: "You, there who laid the foundation of the rebellion, submit to the presbyters and be chastened to repentance, bending your knees in a spirit of humility

BTW, after the apostasy of Judas, leaving eleven apostles until after the Resurrection, it was St Peter, exercising the supreme authority given Him by Christ, who took charge and initiated the choosing of Judas’ replacement – Matthias.

Matthew 18:18 is a sermon with the general body of disciples, take a closer look and you will see I am telling the truth. Jesus did not need to repeat to close circle of Apostles the same thing He already preached unless you think some parent let some little girl stray away and happen upon all of them. Simple common sense tells us that if one receives the gospel message, but rejects it they are going to be remaining in their sin unless they repent and believe; at least at that point in time and vice versa. Why? Like the Parable of the Soils; it is not the sower or in this case the messenger, it is the power of the message and the sovereignty of God in dealing with sin and with salvation.

Let play the game “Peter the all powerful”. He died and no mention of him passing his “super-power” onto anyone else and no one ever claimed that until Fourth Council of the Lateran (Canon 5) in 1215. There the pecking order of “precedence of the patriarchal churches: after Rome, then Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem” - obviously selected by man.
fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

You error in who chose Matthias; you said it was Peter, but Scripture says it was God; so if you cannot get the simple things correct, what credibility do you have in anything that pertains to understanding of Scripture?

Concerning Peter, Jesus said that Satan desires to sift you like wheat but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers This is important because it tells us from the Lord the very role that Peter will play. He is a leader of the 12 but equal in the sight of God and only exhaulted above other men by other men, not God.

You did get one thing correct that Judas Iscariot was an apostate, this we agree. Clement not only understood faith alone in Christ alone he also understood the pastoral epistles of I Timothy and Titus of how the leadership in the local church is to be regarded. He also understood the doctrine of election and predestination as well.

I never met or have known a gunuine faith in Jesus of one that believes that Scriptures are merely historical documents; by that you have shown that your church is an authority unto itself and restated the same circular reasoning once again proving my point that you call absurd.

For your sake and for mine and for God’s I am no longer dialoging with you because there is no point in giving you opportunity to continue to display your unfortunate pride which leads to sin.

I pray God will save you according to His love and mercy if He has not already.

Beth

 

[EDWARDJL]

Yes but this has not always been the case. Saints especially martyrs at one time were declared by public declaration and not by actual canonization.

I think these arguments are circular when you are dealing with non-Catholics. There are many teachings of the Church. Very few of them are actually dogma, which a Catholic is required to believe.

Although there are many things taught that are not in the Bible, none of these things should conflict with the Bible. Take, for example, Matthew 7:21-23,

“Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness”.

The only point I am trying to make here is that doing miracles (from Saint’s or otherwise, is not proof that these people are in heaven). People mention the fact of the infallible Church Jesus left. Jesus never said that leaders in his Church would be infallible in their teachings. He said that the Gates of Hades would not prevail against his church. That is not the same thing. Infallibility of the Pope was not declared dogma until 1713 by Pope Clement XI. Even Catholics were free to dispute this point until then.

The Eastern Orthodox church split with the RCC over this and other matters. They do not recognize the infallibility of the Pope. However, their 7 sacraments are recognized by the Roman Catholic Church because their Bishops are viewed as having valid Apostolic Succession.

Many people on this board have criticized Protestants as Heretics because, among other things, they do not agree with the infallibility of the Pope. They argue that the RCC is the one Jesus established because it is the oldest, going back to the first century. Well arguably, the Eatern Orthodox could make the same claim. In the Book of Acts, the Churches that were established first, were in the east. This would put the Eastern Orthodox as the oldest.

Peter, certainly was fallible. He denied Christ 3 times subsequent to his confession, where Christ responded that the gates of Hades would not prevail against his Church. Peter and the apostles were pretty pathetic, prior to Pentecost. After Pentecost, Peter and the rest were bold and unstoppable, totally changed. It was the Holy Spirit that made this difference. If you want a view of what the earliest Church really looked like, read the book of Acts.

 

[Beth_Martin]

So having said that, would you agree that Catholics do everything non-Catholics do to be saved and more (Iike recieve the sacraments)? And if that’s the case, what is your issue with the Catholic Church? Does it ask too much for the Lord?

It depends on the Catholic just as it depends on the non-Catholic for all Christians enter the same way. By grace through faith in Christ alone and not of works least anyone should boast about cooperating in ones salvation. He only accepts thoses that come with a genuine heart of repentance. It is why there will be people from every tribe and tongue in the Kingdom, for some will struggle and be successful by His grace to enter into the Kingdom as Lord tells us in Luke.