Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Abu]

EDWARDJL
You are saying that was Christ did on the cross is not enough. However, what Christ could not accomplish on the Cross, you can accomplish through participating in the Mass. In Hebrews, Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father because his one time sacrifice was accomplished.

So you seem not to trust St Paul, and not Jesus either when He gave us the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!
You are correct that our suffering is lacking in Christ’s suffering, and we need to suffer to make up for that, and in your rush to ignore Christ’s sacrifice on our altars you ignore the fact that we are called to be coredeemers with Christ: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1Tim 2:5). And because Christ is the one Mediator St Paul commands “supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.” (1 Tim 2:1). That’s the Mass. The Mass “is beyond compare the most important work Christ does through His Church: and it is our privilege to join the priest and so join Christ Himself in the offering He is making in heaven.” (Frank Sheed, Christ In Eclipse, Sheed and Ward, 1978, p 107).

So we are all called to be coredeemers with Him, and that is why His Church has given the title of Coredemptrix to His Mother, as the holiest of those He has redeemed, and worship at Mass with reception of Jesus Himself is incomparable.

 

[Des]

It must be very tense being Catholic for you will always be constantly concerned about sinning

It’s called a conscience Beth. To ignore it is to ignore this great gift from God because a weak conscience results in poor spiritual growth.

And Paul agrees.

Act 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men."

Or the other side is you never really worry too much because you just go to a confessional and do a few acts of goodness and reset the sin-meter.

Not likely. Confession is a very humble experience and that’s one of the reasons why it was instituted. Ironically however, what you said to me, is exactly how I feel the toward you. How easy and simple it must be to confess in private to God. So easy in fact that it dangerously can become routine and boring. Even easier when you believe in OSAS. And it seems clear that because you don’t often think about your sins or keeping your conscience clean, that you could make a good example of this type of behaviour. You see Beth, the problem with this world nowadays is the lack of a sense of sin people seem to have. And if one isn’t always examining his conscience or being alert, then it’s so easy to fall into this trap.

Mark 13:33 "Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come."

I don’t have anything else to add or say because i am at a loss of words for my heart really goes out to you in love dear brother.

I have the fullness of the Truth in my Church Beth. Never feel sorry for that. Feel sorry for yourself and how you can’t ever really know if you’re right or not, since you really are your own guide to what God is saying in His Written Word.

Yes and you?

Why certainly. However my misinterpretations can’t ever lead me astray from the Dogmas of the Church so long as I at least remain within those confines while interpreting. You however can believe one doctrine of yours from your interpretations, then totally do a 180 once you ‘feel’ you were wrong the first time God ‘showed you the light’. Meanwhile all along you’ve been preaching and teaching the wrong truths. And if you messed up once, you can do it again…and again…and again. And if you thought the Holy Spirit lead you once into an interpretation (but obviously He did not since you’ve since felt it was wrongly interpreted later down the road), then you really have to constantly question everything you read now along with your current doctrines you cling to.

you see Des you just said what Catholics have been tellling me you will never hear a catholic say…being certain of their salvation

You’ve clearly misunderstood them mpjw. Because honestly, I’ve only ever heard Catholics say they are unsure of their Salvation (future tense) and not present tense so long as they had just received the Sacrament of Confession.

 

[fxcc]

***"I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). ***

Here’s the Catholic understanding of this verse:

The sufferings of Christ created the good of the world’s redemption. This good in itself is inexhaustible and infinite. No man can add anything to it.

But at the same time, in the mystery of the Church as his Body, Christ has in a sense opened his own redemptive suffering to all human suffering. In so far as man becomes a sharer in Christ’s sufferings—in any part of the world and at any time in history—to that extent he *in his own way completes *the suffering through which Christ accomplished the Redemption of the world.

Does this mean that the Redemption achieved by Christ is not complete? No. It only means that the Redemption, accomplished through satisfactory love, remains always open to all love expressed in human suffering. In this dimension—the dimension of love—the Redemption which has already been completely accomplished is, in a certain sense, constantly being accomplished. Christ achieved the Redemption completely and to the very limits but at the same time he did not bring it to a close. In this redemptive suffering, through which the Redemption of the world was accomplished, Christ opened himself from the beginning to every human suffering and constantly does so. Yes, it seems to be part of the very essence of Christ’s redemptive suffering that this suffering requires to be unceasingly completed.

Thus, with this openness to every human suffering, Christ has accomplished the world’s Redemption through his own suffering. For, at the same time, this Redemption, even though it was completely achieved by Christ’s suffering, lives on and in its own special way develops in the history of man. It lives and develops as the body of Christ, the Church, and *in this dimension *every human suffering, by reason of the loving union with Christ, completes the suffering of Christ. It completes that suffering just as the Church completes the redemptive work of Christ. The mystery of the Church—that body which completes in itself also Christ’s crucified and risen body—indicates at the same time the space or context in which human sufferings complete the sufferings of Christ. Only within this radius and dimension of the Church as the Body of Christ, which continually develops in space and time, can one think and speak of “what is lacking” in the sufferings of Christ. The Apostle, in fact, makes this clear when he writes of “completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church”.

It is precisely the Church, which ceaselessly draws on the infinite resources of the Redemption, introducing it into the life of humanity, which is the dimension in which the redemptive suffering of Christ can be constantly completed by the suffering of man.

This also highlights the divine and human nature of the Church. Suffering seems in some way to share in the characteristics of this nature. And for this reason suffering also has a special value in the eyes of the Church. It is something good, before which the Church bows down in reverence with all the depth of her faith in the Redemption. She likewise bows down with all the depth of that faith with which she embraces within herself the inexpressible mystery of the Body of Christ.

Pope John Paul II
Apostolic Letter
Salvici Doloris

Is all this related to the Eucharist? Very much so, and very centrally. In the Eucharist (the Sacrament of Love) we are truly united to Christ in His Passion, Death and Resurrection. Shortly after this Communion with Him, the Mass ends, with the words “Go, the Mass is ended.”

The traditional form was “Ite, missa est,” - “Go, it is the dismissal.” The Latin word missa means ‘sending’, and from it we derive English words like ‘missile’, ‘missive’, ‘permission’,
‘dismiss’, and ‘mission’. It is this last meaning that can best be applied to the Mass.

“Ite, missa est” can also be translated as “Go, it is sent.”

What is sent? The Word that we have received into our hearts. It is now our mission to utilise the prophetic call we have all been given in Baptism, proclaiming the Lordship of Jesus to those who most need to hear His Good News.

What else is sent? The Body and Blood of Christ that we have assimilated into our own flesh and blood through our reception of Holy Communion. As members of His Mystical Body, the Church, we become His loving and healing presence for those we encounter: the poor, the sick, the neglected, the elderly. Some of us are called to reach out to prisoners, those enslaved by addictions, or those labouring under physical or psychological disabilities. Others of us are sent to people marginalised by society: the homeless, the unemployed, the young who feel hopeless.

In doing all of this we labor/suffer, for the sake of building up the Body of Christ, which, as St Paul says, is the Church. If we aren’t suffering with the ultimate aim of building up this Body, we aren’t making up or participating in Christ’s suffering, which He underwent for all of humankind.

 

[fxcc]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well that is not all that is missing. There is the NT reference made by Paul in 1 Cor 3:11-15:

“11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Here is a saved man going through a purifying fire. A perfect scriptural reference for purgation. Protestantism has no explanation for this because the only fire in protrestantism is hell fire and saved men do not experience it.

"fire"is the fire of God and this event happens in heaven not purgatory.

we will be rewarded in heaven for all the works we did which honor God and His Kingdom

In the verse in question, the man’s work is “burned up”, and “he will suffer loss”. So how come “he will be rewarded in heaven for all the works which he did?” What works? They’ve been burned up!

Of course the verse goes on to say that the man will nevertheless be saved “but only as through fire”. Now saving doesn’t happen in heaven - heaven is the place those who are saved go to. So, saying that the “fire is the fire of God and this event happens in heaven not purgatory” doesn’t make an iota of sense.

Do such marked failures to understand even relatively straightforward verses of scripture not arise from a stubborn mindset to avoid or deny some truths, like the truth of Purgatory, at all costs?

 

[mpjw2]

MPJW,
Let’s review briefly where we are right now.

be happy to

You left the Catholic Church because you felt the joy that the Baptists had for your dead friend because he was saved.

was not the only reason but one of them

Yet, you denounce the fundamental Baptist teaching (OSAS) that allowed them to believe he was saved in the first place.

that is not correct. My friend did not believe in OSAS either

In a previous post I said…

there are a lot of Christians who take being saved the wrong way with the OSAS attitude…

Something to the effect…they prayed a sinners prayer 20 years ago so now they are saved for the rest of their life…and they can live and sin any way they want and do not have to worry about their destination because they are saved

no wonder non catholic Christians have a bad reputation…there are too many people who call themselve Christian who have this attitude about christianity and salvation

Look at what Des said in a previous post which has nothing to do with OSAS .

I can say for certain that a **Catholic is saved **after Confessing his sins to a Priest.

granted Non catholic christians do not confess to a priest, but for the same reason you confess we confess too.

In addition to confessing to God we may also confide in a spouse, loyal friend, counselor …someone we can trust to hold us accountable.

I am assumming…and only God knows… as my friend was being stabbed to death, He made one last sincere confession in heart and by doing so God would have saved Him. just as he would save you at only that precise moment in time …

such confession has nothing to do with OSAS

I encourage you not to believe the baptist Church teaches OSAS similiar to the way I just quoted myself above

I have been associated with baptists and I can promise you that the baptist religion does not teach OSAS.

they need to confess their sin just as much as you need to confess yours,

If you encounter a baptist who has a OSAS attitude…pray for him, teach him, but please do not assume all are like him and share similiar beliefs.

Within any christian church there are “baby” immature christians…myself included.

I was a baby christian at the ripe age of 42 where I started to learn a new world of christianity. I probably did a lot of things wrong and sent mixed signals without intending to do so

You believe that if you silently confess your sins …to God…that this has the same effect as we get in the sacrament of reconciliation.

Yes I do

You practice all the sacraments from the Catholic faith, but without the validity of an ordained priesthood to administer them.

yes…but as I mentioned there is a slight difference in the way we practice them.

You agree that there is nothing that the Catholic Church does that is detrimental to salvation

yes I do agree with that

and you seem to believe that you do everything a Catholic does in terms of salvation

.

here is the dividing line…which may be difficult to explain in typed words…but I will try

Everything I do that a Catholic does I do out of respect and love and honor of my heavenly Father God.

And I am sure you do too,

But I hope you understand what I am about to say,

Paul…no matter how much or how little I do…God will still save me for my faith and belief in Him

Not that I would want to do or live my life in the way I am about to say but …

I believe that if I lived my whole life from childhood to the day I died…

Believing there is only One true God who gave us His word the bible and sent His Son Jesus to be crucified for my sins and after being buried Jesus rose from the dead an then ascended into heaven

waking up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch tv, then go to sleep

and on saturday I had fun in the sun …and Sunday I go to church and read the bible, pray to God

and when it comes to being saved and making it to heaven, I know in my heart Jesus is the ONLY way and in order for my sins to be forgiven and restore my soul to a state of grace, I need to be baptized make as many sincere confessions to God and repent of my sin as necessary… and have a desire to follow Jesus and not having a desire to sin.

If that was my whole life nothing else…

I believe I am saved

well…whoppeee !!! I am going to heaven

the sad fact is no one is going to heaven because I did not witness to anyone in one way or another.
I live basically a hermit life doing nothing but sleep work and eat to stay alive and go to church and read the bible and pray

This Is why we non catholic christians say we are saved by faith alone

The reason I do what I do is to show the lost world God loves them

and the same gift of salvation God gave me He wants to give to all mankind.

You claim to be here to seek unity with Catholics.

Unity in the way…

we can accept each other independant of what the other believes

we do not have to accept the belief of the other

yes our believes have common threads but they are also apart in lot of areas

the main thing is we christians all say Jesus is the center of our life

As long as we are focused on Jesus, we win.

So tell me again, why are you not a Catholic?

I believe by now you know why

I will be happy to answer further questions

God bless

mpjw

 

[fxcc]

**If the mass is “truly propitiatory”, wouldn’t that imply that it is more than just a re-presentation of the original sacrifice on Calvary? **

1. The “Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” is the same, once for all, sacrifice on Calvary of the perfect Lamb of God.
2. Whilst it is true that Jesus offered Himself to His Father at a specific moment in time and space at Calvary in complete atonement for our sins, it is also equally true that that momentous salvific event transcends time and space. This is so that its fruit (Redemption) can extend back in time to the very first humans (Adam and Eve) and forward in time as well, to the very last human, including ourselves in this current hour of history.
3. Jesus Christ is High Priest (and Victim) forever. If there is an eternal High Priest, there must also be an eternal sacrifice, for a High Priest would effectively cease to be a High Priest without a sacrifice. Hence, Christ offers Himself eternally to His Father, just as He did at Calvary, albeit now in an unbloody manner.
4. This eternal dimension of Calvary/the Mass was prophesied in the OT itself. “… from the rising of the sun even to the going down, My Name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to My Name a clean oblation, for My Name is great among the Gentiles.” Mal 1:11 “From the rising of the sun even to the going down” refers to the eternal nature of the event, "every place"means universally (in heaven and on earth), and the “clean oblation” - the only sacrifice acceptable to the Father in atonement for man’s transgressions - is that of the Father’s own Perfect Lamb, His own Divine Son, as was prophesied through the mouth of Abraham, the father of the Jewsh nation: “God himself will provide the lamb”.
5. The Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus is the New Passover. In the Old Passover, God directed that the flesh of the sacrificed lamb had to be eaten by all the family, on the night before they set out from bondage, as sustenance for their journey. So too Christ, in the New Passover, offers His own flesh to His people for their spiritual nourishment on their journey from the bondage of sin to salvation. Take, eat, this is my Body. Take, drink, this is my Blood. Given up for you. Life giving food for your soul. This nourishing of His flock (with Himself) is so critically important in Christ’s eyes that He adds a dire warning: *“Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.” *This is why the Word of God wasn’t just made Man. The Word was made flesh - something that is edible!
6. I wouldn’t venture to guess how long this profound (mind boggling!) realisation might have taken to sink in among Christ’s first disciples, but we find St Paul clearly confirming what they believed: "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? " (1 Corinthians 10:16)
7. This is waht happens at every Mass. The one eternal sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, by the ministerial power of the Priest, acting in persona Christi, in the person of Christ Himself, the High Priest, is made present on the altar to all the faithful, so that they too can have the opportunity to, literally, partake of the Body and Blood of the Lamb, as their forefathers in the OT did before them. The difference of course is that while God’s people consumed an earthly lamb in the OT for physical nourishment (and eventually “died” John 6:49), Christ gives Himself to us in the NT as the everlasting food for our souls with the promise: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life … " John 6:54
8. The sacrifice of the Mass is not only a propitiatory sacrifice (being the same sacrifice as at Calvary) it is also a sacrifice of eternal praise and thanksgiving. And it has both an earthly and a heavenly dimension, for the sacrifice of Christ the slain Lamb is eternally present before the Father in heaven.
   Revelation 5: 11-14 provides a profound insight into this (and the reason why the Mass is the only **perfect **worship of God by His people on earth).
   *“I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number, and they cried out in a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches, wisdom and strength, honor and glory and blessing.” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.” The four living creatures answered, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.” *
   So, at Mass, in the Eucharist, we join all of heaven in worshipping the Lamb of God who was slain for us, because that same slain Lamb is eternally at the centre of worship in heaven as well! At every Mass, together with all of heaven, we cry “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God of hosts! Heaven and earth are full of His glory!”
9. This is why the Eucharist (Jesus Himself, in the flesh) is the Source, Centre and Summit of the authentic Christian life.
10. On the subject of the Eucharist as the New Passover, I most highly recommend a video entitled “Christ in the Passover”, produced by Jews for Jesus. The parallels are stunning and eye-opening!

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5272606142394767394#

God bless you,

Francis

 

[Beth_Martin]

this is what John says in 1John2: let’s use a little color coding. The Green is what Evangelical’s / protestants focus on. the Red is the rest of the story. Catholic Theology includes both parts,

1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.
2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the whole world. 3 The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his command ments.
4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.
7 Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
8 And yet I do write a new commandment to you, which holds true in him and among you, for the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 Whoever says he is in the light, yet hates his brother, is still in the darkness.
10 Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is nothing in him to cause a fall.
11 Whoever hates his brother is in darkness; he walks in darkness and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 12 I am writing to you, children, because your sins have been forgiven for his name’s sake.
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have conquered the evil one.
14 I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God remains in you, and you have conquered the evil one.
15 Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, sensual lust, 8 enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17 Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you not because you do not know the truth but because you do, and because every lie is alien to the truth.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist.
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life. 26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you.
27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him.
28 And now, children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not be put to shame by him at his coming.
29 If you consider that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who acts in righteousness is begotten by him.

Notice the red lines, which are generally not understood by Protestants include refutations of sola Fide: You must not commit sin and you must keep the commandments and do the will of God.

It condemns those that have left the church as being unannointed.

It also condemns the concept of OSAS, calling on us to remain in Christ

Paul,

All you have demonstated is your own lack of understanding the nature of sin and the nature of the atonement for that sin and moreover the letter of 1 John. Other than that you have shown nothing for tell me one person who has committed no sins and obeys His commandments all the time without exception, which is what the “RED” is stating? Can you name one? I know it is not you or I or anyone I have met here or anyone. Some actually seems to contradict the other; so how do you reconcile the differences because based on your thinking no one will be with the Lord because on the basis of your standard there is no one to save us from ourselves.

Reread what you have written and think about it and I hope God will reveal the message of the passages.

 

[Beth_Martin]

To be saved, all people have to recieve sacramental grace,starting with Baptism. This puts them in the state of Grace. No man can be saved without the Grace of God. They then need to stay in the state of grace until death to achieve heaven. To do this, they must avoid mortal sin and love God and Neighbor. If someone does fall from grace through sin, they can be reconciled to God through the sacrament of reconciliation.
Now many non-Catholic Christians have valid baptism so they can achieve heaven if they subsequently avoid mortal sin and love God and Neighbor. However, if they fail to do so, they do not have a valid means of reconciling to God. this is a great disadvantage. They also have a great disadvantage in that being separated from the eucharist, they do not gain the regular graces that help to improve their souls.

Nothing. If you fulfill the requirements taught by the catholic church you will enter heaven. And I have never heard a Protestant faith that demands anything of their members beyond what the catholic church expects.

Yes, unfortunately. First of all they separate themselves from the Church and its sacraments. That is hugely detrimental to his/her soul. Many try to pry Catholics away from the one true faith, This is also detrimental to their souls. And many mislead themselves into false doctrines like sola fide and sola scriptura through their own fanciful interpretations of the bible. This is also detrimental to their souls.

Are you insinuating that Catholics are deficient because they let God be the judge?
Knowledgeable, well catechized Catholics believe that the Bible is in fact the infallible word of God when properly interpreted . We also believe that Mary was concieved without sin, led a sinfree life and died still a virgin.

Well, having valid sacraments is a huge difference.

I have now come to believe that the reason you are on the site is because you seek to validate your own choices. It would be a disservice for us to tell you that separating yourself from the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church was an acceptable choice.

I believe it is worth noting at this point that the original creed decided in Nicene (325) did not contain “one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church”, but was revised by the First Council of Constantinople (381) and added to the first creed was the following: “In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.” For motre details and expanded understanding click HERE. What is worth noting is that the early fathers and the early creeds used the literal “universal” or “catholic” with reare exception, but for the concensus of the creeds the point was there was a universal Christian church as the early church battled heresies. Not until much later did a new form of “Catholic” church form most likely do to the great schism and the certainly after the Emperor Constantine merged pagan religion with Christianity. So this 2000 year claim of the “Roman Catholic Church” does not match with history or intentions of the early church fathers, but it sounds good to men and certainly brings pride to the ones who hold to a revised history. The most learned Catholics already know this to be true anyway; willing to admit is? No.

 

[paul_c]

here is the dividing line…which may be difficult to explain in typed words…but I will try

Everything I do that a Catholic does I do out of respect and love and honor of my heavenly Father God.

And I am sure you do too,

But I hope you understand what I am about to say,

Paul…no matter how much or how little I do…God will still save me for my faith and belief in Him
Not that I would want to do or live my life in the way I am about to say but …

I believe that if I lived my whole life from childhood to the day I died…

Believing there is only One true God who gave us His word the bible and sent His Son Jesus to be crucified for my sins and after being buried Jesus rose from the dead an then ascended into heaven

waking up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch tv, then go to sleep

and on saturday I had fun in the sun …and Sunday I go to church and read the bible, pray to God

and when it comes to being saved and making it to heaven, I know in my heart Jesus is the ONLY way and in order for my sins to be forgiven and restore my soul to a state of grace, I need to be baptized make as many sincere confessions to God and repent of my sin as necessary… and have a desire to follow Jesus and not having a desire to sin.

If that was my whole life nothing else…

I believe I am saved

well…whoppeee !!! I am going to heaven

This Is why we non catholic christians say we are saved by faith alone

The reason I do what I do is to show the lost world God loves them

and the same gift of salvation God gave me He wants to give to all mankind.

mpjw

MPJW,
What I get out of this is that you left Catholicism because it expects too much of you. Now, this may in fact not be true, but look what you have written above:

“Paul…no matter how much or how little I do…God will still save me for my faith and belief in Him”

But you are decieved if you think this really is the case. In Matthew 19, a man asked Jesus what it took to gain eternal life. This is what he says:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good.If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
20 The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

Now this is clearly in direct conflict with what you claimed above.

Now Paul Echoes this in Romans 2:
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

In fact, you do need faith but if faith is not put into action through love, you will not gain eternal life. There are many passages that support this in scripture. I will give you two to consider: 1Corinthians 13:

1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
…
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

and James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Beth_Martin]

John 2:23-25 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing. 24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men, 25 and because He did not need anyone to testify concerning man, for He Himself knew what was in man.

Was it not precisely this claiming of salvation by faith (alone), that prompted **Jesus **to say:
*“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but **he ***that **doeth **the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt 7:21)?

Again:
*“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’” *

echoed by

**James **(“Jimmy”, with his “epistle of straw”):

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" (James 2:14)?

Again:
*“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?” *(James 2:19-21)

And again:
*“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and **not ***by faith only.” (James 2:24)

And again:
*“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” *(James 2:26)

John:
*"…the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." *(Rev 20:12)

Matthew:
*"… the Son of man shall… reward every man according to his works.” *(Matt 16:27)

Paul:
“…every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.”(1 Cor 3:8)

Q: Hey, Martin! Is “faith alone” a valid doctrine based on the **authentic **scriptures which the sacred writers composed?

A: “I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text …” Martin Luther (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102

Martin, old boy, looks like you’ve attracted an army of staunch followers and defenders of your fabricated, easy-as-pie-no-worries doctrines which are diametrically opposed to the intent and original meaning of scripture, but do remember this:

“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” (Deuteronomy 4:2)

“… even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!” (Gal 1:8)"

Ever heard of “rewards” in heaven? They will be given to Christians based on their works of righteousness, but salvation has no basis in works for as James demonstrates that fruits or works of righteousness are the result of a genuine faith, which James compares to a person without genuine faith. This soincides with Paul in Romans and with what the Lord said, which is you will know them by their fruits? Who will know them? God? No, God already knows since He is the one who grants salvation, then who will know? Men, yes that is right other people will recognize the Christian by their fruit or their works or righteousness, which is the entire point James makes and he used Abraham as an example to compare and contrast this, which none of you have ever been taught, but now you know the correct interpretation and how it accords perfectly with Paul and with Jesus.

If I were Catholic, I would study in great detail the Book of Romans, then I would move to Hebrews and then Galatians and I would learn it so well that I could almost memorize them.

 

[paul_c]

Paul,

All you have demonstated is your own lack of understanding the nature of sin and the nature of the atonement for that sin and moreover the letter of 1 John. Other than that you have shown nothing for tell me one person who has committed no sins and obeys His commandments all the time without exception, which is what the “RED” is stating? Can you name one? I know it is not you or I or anyone I have met here or anyone. Some actually seems to contradict the other; so how do you reconcile the differences because based on your thinking no one will be with the Lord because on the basis of your standard there is no one to save us from ourselves.

Reread what you have written and think about it and I hope God will reveal the message of the passages.

Beth, you ignore what you do not like. You, like Martin Luther before you, judge yourself a sinner and therefore seek out a theology where sin doesn’t matter. Well, it does matter. Every sin is a breaking from God’s will (that is the definition of sin, afterall).

We are all called to be holy. Not to claiim that Jesus’s sacrifice nullified our sins so that they don’t matter, , but to actually become holy. Nothing that isn’t holy will enter heaven. I’m sure you can find that statement in scripture.

Now, sure, everyone sins. But that is no excuse. When we sin, we must reconcile with God sacramentally, repent, and do our best to avoid sinning in the future. Through this process and God’s sacramental grace, we will learn to align our will to God’s, reduce our incidence of sin and become increasingly holy. That is what we are called to do. And the saints amoung us reach a point of holiness where they rarely sin at all and never commit mortal sin. Is it so hard to believe that people are capable of living their lives without killing, lying, stealing or cheating on their spouses, while showing love of God and Neighbor,

Saying that everyone does it (sin) is no excuse. You wouldn’t accept it from your kids and God doesn’t accept it from us either.

And saying that Jesus died to make our sins null and void is a complete misunderstanding of what the Gospel message is. His suffering was not to allow us to sin without consequence. His suffering was to show us the evil of sin and to teach us about love. And yes, his suffering allowed us to be reconciled to God so that we could gain the sacramental grace that will ultimately save us if we cooperate with it. But there’s the rub, we must cooperate with that grace. We must follow Jesus and act with love.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Yeah we have a list of those people WHO HAVE DIED that we call saints. The difference is these saints are unable to sin anymore because their earthly life is over. In addition saints now go through a lengthy investigation of every aspect of their lives. Also scripture records that Peter was given the keys to heaven but Jesus retained the keys to hell. That is why we can declare this person or that person is in heaven but the church has never said any one person was in hell. Now contrast that with protestantism which has no authority in heaven, hell or on earth which does no investigation whatsoever and in which individual protestants can presume they are saved before they die. Huge difference !!!

So you admit the error of the past, which shows the fallibility and thus once fallibility exists in pronouncements that were suppose to be infallible - it only shows that it is from men and not from god for God is the only infallible One.

Peter was given the honor of opening the door to the New Covenent and that is the extent one can say without imposing on the rest of Scripture to what would be contradictory. Peter was given to the key, which is the knowledge of the gospel and it could be debated that each of the Apostles were given the key and that it was not explicit to just Peter, but will give them to Peter for the sake of argument. I think it is worth noting in Luke 11:52 about the rebuke Jesus gave to the Pharasees in light of the keys given to Peter which have the very opposite effect and shows the transition from the OT to the NT. ***“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” ***

Jesus has both keys “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:” Opens and shuts what? The entrance to heaven just as Peter. Just as anyone who has the authority to present the gospel, which is the Christian.

You don’t think it is a stretch to go from Peter opening up the New Covenant way of entering to the Pope? Especially since the pope wasn’t considered by your own church as the vicar of Christ until 1100 plus years after Peters death? that doesn’t strike you as strange. Isn’t strange that the early church fathers recognized the vicar of Christ as the Holy Spirit for many generations after the last Apostle died; that doesn’t seem strange to anyone? Sounds like change and fallibility to me. That is just me; the Holy Spirit guides me and you are guided by the Catholic Church for your interpretations of things pertaining to the Holy Spirit so maybe this is the diferences in opinions.

I’m just content to know that both Catholics and non-Catholics will be residing in the New Jersusalem and that i will be there to celebrate with all the saints of all the ages.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Paul

it got to be 1:00 am by the time I finished posting to you.

I did not get to answer your question…

**So tell me again, why are you not a Catholic? **

first and formost, I desire to live my life by how God and the Holy Spirit guide me

as you do too I am sure

2nd…I believe in sola scripture…Is that how Catholics say it?

which I know you do not

you also rely on the teaching of the catechism

The chatechism brings to light how to live the Catholic faith

I respect that

The only reason I read the catechism is to better understand the catholic way of life

just like the only reason

I would read a spanish dictionary is to better understand the language of the spanish

it does not mean I desire to speak spanish full time.

I do not desire to be catholic full time.

In order to help me communicate with God and “listen” to want He wants to tell me, I read the bible, study it, and pray to Him and then be still and quiet…

it is in those quiet times following prayer …I listen with no distractions around me when God sometimes speaks to me.

Paul based on your response in the other thread when I stated

I get my answers from God… no website

you said

Not many people get communication directly from God.

I wonder …

Is that belief true only with you?

or

is that a common belief among the Catholic family?

and then I told you about the time my wife heard the voice of God…

you stated…

Frankly, I **don’t find **the little voices in your head to be credible witnesses to the truth

when you stated this Paul…my immediate thought was oh my

May I draw your attention to Moses and the burning bush

Moses heard the voice of God coming from the burning bush

I believe from the bottom of my heart…If there had been another human being standing directly behind Moses when this event took place…

the only thing that person would here is the crackling of the fire on the bush

Only Moses would hear the words God spoke as scripture tells us.

here is another thought

when you said…

You practice all the sacraments from the Catholic faith, but without the validity of an ordained priesthood to administer them

Paul you may not be a priest of the catholic church but

you are a priest of your very own houshold.

Let me ask you Paul…

What is stopping you from having a social event at your house where you invite your friend from work?

if you are like me, some of your friends may not be christians

lets say one of your friends saw the cross hanging on your wall and started to ask questions

and after you answered them, your friend received the truth of what you said to him…

Jesus died for their sin and the only way to heaven is if their soul is in a state of grace

Paul right then and there you are annointed by God to be **priest of your household **or any place for that matter.

If you were led by the Holy Spirit, you can help your friend say a prayer of forgiveness and God would here your friends sincere heart and forgive him of their sin…not forever just for that moment his soul would be in a state of grace because of you and your courage to witness to him.

the reason I am not catholic is because of many reasons,

one of them is

within the catholic church “Priests and the apostolic chain are the only ordained people” who can minister the sacraments

You can not administer the sacraments right?

I believe this is a Catholic rule not God’s desire for all of us…

Paul…I believe we are all priests and have to annointing of the Holy Spirit to minister to anyone we come in contact with as we are led by the Holy Spirit to do.

cont…

 

[mpjw2]

Personally, I will never forget the day in church God led me to woman who was in pain and needed assistance from her friend and a walker.

I inquired if she would like a prayer and God bless her she said “sure”

Paul… that prayer opened the floodgates of God’s healing power…by the time service was over this same woman was standing in front of me and I did not notice her.

And the reason why is she was not with her friend and she did not have her walker with you. She could not thank me enough for my prayer and exclaimed to me

“God healed me …no more pain”

Praise God

One more testimony to consider

I was part of a sharing my faith ministry at my church

I with two other christians in the ministry went to a home of a recent visitor

the purpose of the ministry is to help people discover the love of God and let them know they are welcomed in church just the way they are.
And if led, we would share the Gospel message

Paul long story short…after getting to know “Bob’s” background and experiences of life…it was not a pretty picture.

I was led to ask Him…

How he felt about God and His future

He was not a believer in the cross of Jesus Christ

by the way His wife was also present who was a believer since they were married.

Paul I kid you not…I will never forget his words when He told me

“oh I know where I am going, I am going straight to hell”

Can you imagine how you would feel if you heard someone tell you that?.

at that point in time …I was annointed by the Holy Spirit to minister in Godly love to share with him the Gospel

by the end of the night…Give glory to God…Bob had changed right before our eyes.

bob received the words spoken to Him by God through our teams’ ministry and by the end of the night after a sincere confession, repentance and a desire live the life of God…

Bob was a free man once again, for the first time in his life he realized what being saved and in a state of grace is all about…praise God

His wife was tearing up with the abudance of joy for she realized her husband shared in her beliefs for the very first time in their life

Praise God

Just curious Paul;

Have you had any such testimonies as mine?

the reason I am not catholic…

As a catholic, I would not believe I am ordained to minister is such ways as I just express.

Only an ordained catholic priest would be called to minister to the two people I just mentioned

am I right?

God bless

 

[paul_c]

So you admit the error of the past, which shows the fallibility and thus once fallibility exists in pronouncements that were suppose to be infallible - it only shows that it is from men and not from god for God is the only infallible One.

What error from the past are you referring to? If this is in reference to the fact that in the early church, martyrs were acknowledged to be saints, Where is the error in that? They demonstrated their faith and love through the ultimate sacrifice for God.

Peter was given the honor of opening the door to the New Covenent and that is the extent one can say without imposing on the rest of Scripture to what would be contradictory. Peter was given to the key, which is the knowledge of the gospel and it could be debated that each of the Apostles were given the key and that it was not explicit to just Peter, but will give them to Peter for the sake of argument.

Peter was the uncontested leader of the Apostles. He is mentioned far more often than any other person in the new testament for a reason. During Christ’s passion, we also follow Peter’s ctions in parallel It is to Peter that Jesus, the good shepherd, entrusts his sheep in John 21. It is Peter who takes the inititiative to replace Judas in Acts 1. It is Peter who spesks for the apostles at Pentecost and gives the first converts direction on how to become Christians in Acts 2. It is Peter who heals the lame man and leads the defense of the Apostles against the sanhedrin in Acts 3-4. It is Peter who declares the letters of Paul scripture in 2Peter 3. It is Peter who excommunicates Simon Magnus. It is Peter who sees the vision that Gentiles can enter the church and who takes the position that they can do so without circumcision in Acts 15. In fact, through his epistles and Acts, we can see Peter carrying out all the responsibilities we ascribe to the Pope.

I think it is worth noting in Luke 11:52 about the rebuke Jesus gave to the Pharasees in light of the keys given to Peter which have the very opposite effect and shows the transition from the OT to the NT. ***“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” ***

Jesus addressed this to the scribes and Pharisees. It is wrong to try to contend that he was actually adressing this to the Catholic Church.

Jesus has both keys “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:” Opens and shuts what? The entrance to heaven just as Peter. Just as anyone who has the authority to present the gospel, which is the Christian.

You are all over the place in this section. yes, Jesus has the keys to heaven. Was there ever any debate to this? and why is it a problem that he gave St. Peter a set, that Peter passed down to his successors? And how does this authority somehow get extended to everyone can present the Gospel. In fact, it says the opposite. It says Peter and his designees can present the Gospel but that no one else has this authority.

You don’t think it is a stretch to go from Peter opening up the New Covenant way of entering to the Pope? Especially since the pope wasn’t considered by your own church as the vicar of Christ until 1100 plus years after Peters death? that doesn’t strike you as strange. Isn’t strange that the early church fathers recognized the vicar of Christ as the Holy Spirit for many generations after the last Apostle died; that doesn’t seem strange to anyone? Sounds like change and fallibility to me. That is just me; the Holy Spirit guides me and you are guided by the Catholic Church for your interpretations of things pertaining to the Holy Spirit so maybe this is the diferences in opinions.

You are making claims here that just aren’t true. It is no stretch for Peter to be the Pope. I have shown above that he demonstrated all the responsibilities of the office in scripture. The Pope was considered the leader of the church from the very beginning. St. Clement’s letter (the 4th Pope) from 95AD clearly demonstrates this. He was called to adress issues with the Church in Corinth even though St. John was still living and in closer proximity. Here is the link: philthompson.net/pages/library/1clement.html

I’m just content to know that both Catholics and non-Catholics will be residing in the New Jersusalem and that i will be there to celebrate with all the saints of all the ages.

I believe that the Holy Spirit led you here to learn the truth. Please open your heart to embrace it.

 

[paul_c]

MPJW:
The voices in Moses’ head were demonstrated to be of God through great miracles.
You have no such validation. Every thought you have doesn’t come from God. I hear voices too - both good and bad. I discern which they are by whether they are aligned with Church teaching.

As for the two events you discussed. Anyone can pray for someone. That does not require a priest. and anyone can tell someone how they understand God in their lives. I’ve witnessed on these pages frequently and I teach the catechism… That is also not exclusive to priests. We have lots of lay missionaries in the Catholic Church. But they must teach what the Church teaches, not just anything that pops into their heads. And they are under the jurisdiction of the local bishop, who has the teaching authority of the Church.

Priests are consecrated to to administer the sacraments in the place of Jesus. You are not authorized to do that. If you claim the right on your own, it is meaningless and without validity.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Yeah, I like the part in 1 John 5:18 which says:

“18 We know that any one born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.”

It reminds me of all those protestants who go around claiming they are sinners. Looks to me like they were not born of God.

Yes but at the time, which was the day of the resurrection the Apostles WERE the Church. They were the ones who would lay hands on [ordain] bishops [episcopoi]. They ordained deacons [diakoni]. They ordained priests [presbuteroi]. They were the ones to whom authority was given.

presbuteroi=Elders, not priests as you known them, that would be hiereus, one who offers sacrafices. See Matthew 26:3 for the useage of both in one passage so you know the truth of Scripture.

The only use of “office term” is hierateia, office of priesthood from hiereus. The body of believers, called the holy & royal “priesthood” is the word “hierateuma” (Ironically 1 Peter 2:5 & 2:9), which is an office and pertains to all Christians. The Catholic levitical-shadow priesthood does not exist in Scripture. You have elders “presbyteros”, which can be used in terms of age or as overseer. Overseer AKA: Bishop uses the term “episkopē” and the Elder, overseer and Bishop can all be interchangeably, but not hiereus or priest as you have been taught in error.

If I wanted to fully understand I would study Hebrews, but that is me. But as pilate said to Jesus? "What is truth?" ----- John 18

---

inkaneer:

---

Originally Posted by Beth Martin:

We can forgive one another when we hurt each other and that pleases God, but the forgiveness of sins against God can only be removed by God, that was one main purpose of the cross

*** And this is where in scripture? It isn’t. You made it up. Here is what scripture says. First, there is only one sin that is unpardonable and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Everything else is forgiveable. Now when Jesus empowered the Apostles with the authority to forgive the sins of others he did not give them a list of exceptions. You made up your own list. So another example of a false gospel coming from you.

Will someone please help Inkaneer with this part; I think he or she has missed the entire purpose of Jesus ministry & our command to forgive one another and perhaps even the Lord’s Prayer…Thanks in advance

Beth

 

[Pete_Holter]

the reason I am not catholic is because of many reasons,

one of them is

within the catholic church “Priests and the apostolic chain are the only ordained people” who can minister the sacraments

Thank you for sharing! Here is my “apostolic succession in a nutshell” for you to consider:

God the Father passed His authority on to Jesus (cf. Matthew 28:18), Who passed it on to the apostles (cf. Luke 10:16 and Matthew 28:19), who passed it on to their successors. The apostles ordained the 7 to ministry in Acts 6:6. Paul and Barnabas “appointed elders… in every church” (Acts 14:23). Paul told Titus to “exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you” (Titus 2:15). And he told him to “appoint elders in every town” (Titus 1:5). Similar instructions about appointing the next generations of leadership within the Church were given to Timothy (cf. 2 Timothy 2:2), who was told to “not be hasty in the laying on of hands” when appointing an elder (1 Timothy 5:22). Timothy’s own gift of authoritative leadership was similarly in himself through the laying on of hands by those already in authority (cf. 1 Timothy 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6). Paul tells him to “Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you” (1 Timothy 4:11-12). We see that there was no diminution of authority from Jesus to the successors of the apostles, but that they were to carry out their office, just the same, “with all authority.”

Paul received an extraordinary calling directly from God and yet he presented himself to the authority God had already appointed through Jesus’ earthly ministry to make sure he “was not running or had not run in vain” (Galatians 2:2). The authority appointed through the ordinary means of being hand selected by Jesus while He was here on earth, recognized Paul’s apostolic authority and made no adjustments to his doctrine. But had they done so, Paul would have understood himself to have “run in vain” on those points.

We have to present our doctrine to the established authorities to be adjusted by them. If we think that God is calling us to proclaim His message to the world, then we have to proclaim it in unison with the unbroken chain of authoritative leadership established by Jesus while he was here on earth and continuing till today, lest we too “run in vain” and find ourselves proclaiming a contrary gospel that has already been anathematized by His Church (cf. Matthew 18:17; Gal 1:8-9).

This is apostolic succession, firmly rooted in the New Testament for the sake of your salvation.

With love in Christ,
Pete

 

[Beth_Martin]

Continuing

By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests “father.” Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.

Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them “father.” Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as “my son” or “my child” (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).

All of these passages were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and they express the infallibly recorded truth that Christ’s ministers do have a role as spiritual fathers. Jesus is not against acknowledging that. It is he who gave these men their role as spiritual fathers, and it is his Holy Spirit who recorded this role for us in the pages of Scripture. To acknowledge spiritual fatherhood is to acknowledge the truth, and no amount of anti-Catholic grumbling will change that fact."

That is one interpretation, but either it is fallible or Jesus is fallible, where do you believe the fallibility lies?

Matthew 23 Jesus states the following:*** 8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call {anyone} on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.* 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, {that is,} Christ. 11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "**

So who was Jesus speaking to when He stated this and whom was He speaking of and why? When you have the answer to these questions, then you will see the truth which you do not see. You will notice in the explanation given on the Catholic site, this aspect is side-stepped. Why? Perhaps they cannot reconcile the apparent contradiction.

You see some “so-named” authorities pumped themselves up with endless titles. They lack authenticity or heavenly authority. Jesus is admonishing these people about these so-named spiritual authorities and Jesus is telling His own in verses 8 and following, “Be the opposite and be humble and not puffed up in titles"

Here is how Jesus describes these types:
"They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with {so much as} a finger. 5 "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels {of their garments.}"

Why did Jesus say this because some teachers want to be thought as the “source of spiritual knowledge”; that comes only from heaven which is Jesus point. Seems reasonalble to me that Paul wanted to be called Paul and Peter, Peter and James James, but John liked be called the “one Jesus loved”. So you see the writers set the example because they knew they were the same and even when they identifiied themselves i the intros to their letters, they called themselves messengers and/or slaves (bond-servants) of Christ, now that is humility and glorifies God in recognition as Him being the source of divine truth and authority.

 

[paul_c]

presbuteroi=Elders, not priests as you known them, that would be hiereus, one who offers sacrafices. See Matthew 26:3 for the useage of both in one passage so you know the truth of Scripture.

The only use of “office term” is hierateia, office of priesthood from hiereus. The body of believers, called the holy & royal “priesthood” is the word “hierateuma” (Ironically 1 Peter 2:5 & 2:9), which is an office and pertains to all Christians. The Catholic levitical-shadow priesthood does not exist in Scripture. You have elders “presbyteros”, which can be used in terms of age or as overseer. Overseer AKA: Bishop uses the term “episkopē” and the Elder, overseer and Bishop can all be interchangeably, but not hiereus or priest as you have been taught in error.

If I wanted to fully understand I would study Hebrews, but that is me. But as pilate said to Jesus? "What is truth?" ----- John 18

---

Will someone please help Inkaneer with this part; I think he or she has missed the entire purpose of Jesus ministry & our command to forgive one another and perhaps even the Lord’s Prayer…Thanks in advance

Beth

Beth,
he is trying to help you. You are incorrectly assuming that you understand the entire purpose of Jesus ministry.

Here it is, the official Catholic answer to the purpose of Jesus’ ministry from the Catechism:scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p1.htm#I

I. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: “For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”

457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:

Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?

458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love: “In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.” “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

459 The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me.” “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” On the mountain of the Transfiguration, the Father commands: “Listen to him!” Jesus is the model for the Beatitudes and the norm of the new law: “Love one another as I have loved you.” This love implies an effective offering of oneself, after his example.

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”