Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Beth_Martin]

More garbage. It just flows and flows and flows!!!

Where does the Church (the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) derive her authority? Take your pick. Help yourself. Pleasure’s all mine!

“… I will build my church… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it …” (Matt 16:18)

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I** am with you always**, until the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

"…as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. " (John 20:21)

“He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

… every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn." (Isaiah 54:17)

“And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!” (Gal 1:8) "

“If he will not hear **the **Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.”[Matt. xviii. 17.]

“Whosoever will not receive you, nor hear your words, going forth from that house or city, shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment that for that city.”[Matt. x. 14, 15.]

“… mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them…" (Rom 16:17)

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us.” (1 John 2:19)

“I will build My church” (Jesus speaking)- enough said!!

 

[Beth_Martin]

“Whatever **you **shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever **you **shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
or
“Whose sins **you **forgive they are forgiven, whose sins **you **retain they are retained.”

Which part of “you” don’t you understand?

How come people who have difficulty understanding even the plainest English qualify as teachers and preachers?

See Matthew 18:18 for the context; it applies to all Christians because of the message, the gospel, the good news. Understand the Parable of the Soils; it had nothing to do with the sower, but the seed penetrating the heart prepared by God…basic gospel 101 friend.

 

[fxcc]

I did not want to make you look foolish, but now you leave me with no choice as your ignorance of the cross is manifested.

“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”

***“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” ***

***The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” ***- Luke 5 The devout religious leaders sure knew who had the authority. They are the very ones who came up and understood the “loosing and binding” of sins; yet they recognize that god alone can forgive sins? Why? Because as i keep repeatig it is not the messenger, but the message that is the basis for the forgiveness or not to forgive. Do you accept the gospel or not? that is what determines if God forgives or not…basic 101 in Scripture and common sense 101 in human reasoning. This is why Matthew 18:18 was told the same to a crowd of disciples and why the great commission appies to all Christians it is the message, not the person delivering it. Peter and the apostles had the mighty privlidge and responsibility given and chosen as instuments of God to be the first to deliver the “Good News”, the gospel of our salvation.

'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. 3 'Give us each day our daily bread. 4 ‘And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is R616 indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’ --Luke 11

9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 'Give us this day our daily bread. 12 ’And forgive us our debts,----Matthew 6

God alone can forgive sins and Jesus died on the cross to make that possible and it is the reason for God giving man the Scriptures so we can know and have that salvation through Jesus. :banghead:

GOODNESS ME!!!
The whole point of this Gospel passage is to emphasise that God alone can forgive sins and therefore if Jesus was forgiving sins, He must be God!!! Something the scribes and Pharisees didn’t get (or accept).
WHAT ON EARTH has this to do with Jesus delegating authority to His Church to forgive sins?
Bold type, large type, red type, banging head icon… every possible attempt to ram one’s total and unmitigated ignorance/misreading of Scripture down the throat of others!!!

 

[fxcc]

What you do not see is that sin is dealt one on one with God and not by the externals through a person who is not capable of interceeding; it my feel humbling, but feelings do not change the the way God has commanded we confess our sins has it? Yes we are to confess to one another when we do harm to one another, but at the same time we did harm to one another we also sinned against God as well; therefore we confess to one another and also to God in private. Doing the external action makes you “feel good” and “relieved” and “safe” because "you did something and someone told you it could be forgiven or is forgiven, but by one without authority from god to do so, for even the Jews knew as they stated that God alone can forgive sins.

“Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
or
“Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you retain they are retained.”

Which part of “you” don’t you understand?

How come people who have difficulty understanding even the plainest English qualify as teachers and preachers?

See Matthew 18:18 for the context; **it applies to all Christians **because of the message, the gospel, the good news. Understand the Parable of the Soils; it had nothing to do with the sower, but the seed penetrating the heart prepared by God…basic gospel 101 friend.

Go ahead, make my day!

Tell us that YOU, BETH MARTIN, SPECIALLY ELECTED REMNANT OF GOD, MEMBER OF THAT INTRIGUING INVISIBLE CHURCH which Jesus founded, have power to forgive our sins, as an ordained priest in God’s one true visible and tangible Church does.

Don’t stop at your persistent heresies halfway. What will you pull out of that cupboard of horrors next?

Reveal yourself fully and clearly to the viewers of this conversation.

 

[fxcc]

Originally Posted by fxcc

More garbage. It just flows and flows and flows!!!

Where does the Church (the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) derive her authority? Take your pick. Help yourself. Pleasure’s all mine!

“… I will build my church… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it …” (Matt 16:18)

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations … teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)

"…as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. " (John 20:21)

“He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

… every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn." (Isaiah 54:17)

“And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)

“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!” (Gal 1:8) "

“If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.”[Matt. xviii. 17.]

“Whosoever will not receive you, nor hear your words, going forth from that house or city, shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment that for that city.”[Matt. x. 14, 15.]

“… mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them…" (Rom 16:17)

“They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us.” (1 John 2:19)

“I will build My church” (Jesus speaking)- enough said!!

Naturally!
A single irrelevant quote, because nothing logical can be said in fabricated disputation about where Mother Church derives her divine authority from!

 

[fxcc]

As I said there is but one intercessor, asking someone to pray is not the same as the Catholic concept where you are indeed asking the saints to interceed on your behalf whereas i ask my husband to pray to God. The Catholic encylcopedia can give you the correct teaching of your church on this issue.

How much lamer than lame is that for an (non) argument?

This is how the Truth, the mighty Truth of the one true God, the Truth who is Jesus Christ Himself, always outs eventually. In His presence, every lie starts to visibly and pathetically fall apart.

 

[mpjw2]

Scripture validates itself, part of what makes it living and able to make the claim for itself to be of God. So when you believe you have grasped a concept and in your reading you come across something that appears to contradict you now know you have made an error and must discover through study, which the Holy Spirit will lead those who are diligent to the understanding. then there are things that the human mind is incapable of understanding which is expected since the Scriptures are the mind of God, which is far superior to ours.

well said beth

 

[mpjw2]

To all …

and here is the difference between beth’s, mine and all non catholic christian beliefs…

Catholics believe the church has authority over the bible…yes or no?

If there is an issue at hand, Catholics take it to the appointed authority within your church…yes or no?

if a non catholic says they are saved, the catholic church does not recognize the validity in that…yes or no

One reason is because too many non catholics believe in OSAS which is living their life any way they want to and believeing that God will save them at the end no mater what because at one time in the past they said a prayer of confession and they no longer have to do so.
yes or no

A catholic is saved but it is only temporary…
that is only at the precise point following one’s confession of mortal sin committed and unconfessed sin whereby one’s soul would be restored to a state of grace.
Should one die at this precise moment, as des posted, that person would go to heaven or at least purgatory
yes or no

God only commmunicates directly to His appointed within the church who a catholic needs to confide in for validation of any issue at hand. yes or no

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no?

the simple yes or no answers to these questions will comfirm what I believe about the Catholic church

I will let you know if i was wrong or right

thank you

God bless

 

[Sue_Reedy]

This is a really interesting question. I wonder if one interpretation might be… the Church is the mystical body of Christ, and as such all people who are saved, are saved by the action of Christ through His mystical body, even if they do not directly recognise him.

I heard of a Hindu lady who, on learning about Jesus, exclaimed “I have known Him all my life! Now at last I know His Name”.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

To all …

and here is the difference between beth’s, mine and all non catholic christian beliefs…

Catholics believe the church has authority over the bible…yes or no?

If there is an issue at hand, Catholics take it to the appointed authority within your church…yes or no?

if a non catholic says they are saved, the catholic church does not recognize the validity in that…yes or no

One reason is because too many non catholics believe in OSAS which is living their life any way they want to and believeing that God will save them at the end no mater what because at one time in the past they said a prayer of confession and they no longer have to do so.
yes or no

A catholic is saved but it is only temporary…
that is only at the precise point following one’s confession of mortal sin committed and unconfessed sin whereby one’s soul would be restored to a state of grace.
Should one die at this precise moment, as des posted, that person would go to heaven or at least purgatory
yes or no

God only commmunicates directly to His appointed within the church who a catholic needs to confide in for validation of any issue at hand. yes or no

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no?

the simple yes or no answers to these questions will comfirm what I believe about the Catholic church

I will let you know if i was wrong or right

thank you

God bless

I suggest you read the catechism of the catholic church to answer these questions.
The catholic church has total authority on faith and morals the bible does not.
The protestants ignore 2Peter1:20-21 and interpret scripture to their own demise which is evident on this thread. To find the whole truth one must go through the catholic church to find it period! May god help those who reject the truth.

Matthew

 

[inkaneer]

I did not want to make you look foolish, but now you leave me with no choice as your ignorance of the cross is manifested.

“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”

***“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” ***

***The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” ***- Luke 5 The devout religious leaders sure knew who had the authority. They are the very ones who came up and understood the “loosing and binding” of sins; yet they recognize that god alone can forgive sins? Why? Because as i keep repeatig it is not the messenger, but the message that is the basis for the forgiveness or not to forgive. Do you accept the gospel or not? that is what determines if God forgives or not…basic 101 in Scripture and common sense 101 in human reasoning. This is why Matthew 18:18 was told the same to a crowd of disciples and why the great commission appies to all Christians it is the message, not the person delivering it. Peter and the apostles had the mighty privlidge and responsibility given and chosen as instuments of God to be the first to deliver the “Good News”, the gospel of our salvation.

'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. 3 'Give us each day our daily bread. 4 ‘And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is R616 indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’ --Luke 11

9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 'Give us this day our daily bread. 12 ’And forgive us our debts,----Matthew 6

God alone can forgive sins and Jesus died on the cross to make that possible and it is the reason for God giving man the Scriptures so we can know and have that salvation through Jesus. :banghead:

Beth the only person looking foolish here is you. You claim, and rightly so, that only God has the power to forgive sin. What you deny however, is that God can delegate that power to others. But the scriptures make you foolish. In Mark 6:7 we read:

“7 And he called to him the twelve, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits.”

And in Mark 6:13 we read:

“13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.”

Again in Mark 3:15 we read:

“14 And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach 15 and have authority to cast out demons:”

In Luke 10:8 Jesus gives them authority to heal the sick:

“8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9 heal the sick in it and say to them,”

In Luke 10:19 we have Jesus Himself saying he is giving authority to the Apostles:

“19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.”

But lets get down to the business of forgiving sin. Did Jesus delegate that authority? We all admit that Jesus had that authority and scripture does say that Jesus did grant authority to the Apostles to heal the sick and to cast out demons. But did he grant authority to forgive sins? I say yes he did. First let’s establish that the Apostles were sent by Jesus to do what Jesus was sent to do by the Father. We find that in scripture in John 17:17-19:

“17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

Next, let’s ask ourselves why was Jesus’ sent into the world. What was the purpose of the Incarnation? Was it not to deal with sin? Was it not to enable man’s sin to be forgiven? Jesus did not eliminate sin as we all know. Sin is still around but now we have access to the forgiveness of sin all because of Jesus. So Jesus was sent, by the Father to forgive sin. Jesus, in turn, sent the Apostles to forgive sin also. The difference between what Peter asked in Mt 18:21,22 and John 20:23 is that in Mt 18:21,22 Peter asked Jesus about a personal sin of one to another. Jesus replied that the victim of that sin should forgive the sinner. The victim cannot retain the sin they must forgive. But in John 20:23 Jesus is speaking of the apostles as a third party. They are not the victim of the sin. They can invoke the forgiveness of God upon the sinner or they can withold that forgiveness if they so choose.

continued next post

 

[inkaneer]

continuing

One more thing here and this is no coincidence as there is no such thing as a coincidence in scripture. In the healing of the paralytic that you referred to where the Pharisees questioned Jesus’ ability to forgive sins, Jesus says to them in Mt 9:5-8:

“5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” --he then said to the Paralytic–“rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men."

Now look at Peter in Acts 3:1-8:

“1 Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. 2 And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at that gate of the temple which is called Beautiful to ask alms of those who entered the temple. 3 Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, he asked for alms. 4 And Peter directed his gaze at him, with John, and said, “Look at us.” 5 And he fixed his attention upon them, expecting to receive something from them. 6 But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but I give you what I have; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.” 7 And he took him by the right hand and raised him up; and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. 8 And leaping up he stood and walked and entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God.”

Jesus cures the paralytic walk as a sign of His authority to forgive sin. Peter does the exact same miracle as scriptural proof that He too has been given authority to forgive sin.

 

[Pete_Holter]

To all …
Catholics believe the church has authority over the bible…yes or no?

No.

“[T]he living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ,] is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit” (Dei Verbum).

If there is an issue at hand, Catholics take it to the appointed authority within your church…yes or no?

Depends.

If the issue at hand is a dispute over an interpretation of Scripture, then we take it to the Church since the Scripture itself has become the point of contention.

if a non catholic says they are saved, the catholic church does not recognize the validity in that…yes or no

The invincibly ignorant who hold the Catholic faith implicitly and who have not committed a mortal sin will be saved. These criteria exclude everyone who is participating in this thread. Augustine says this of you:

“[mpjw2] cannot have salvation, except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church he can have everything except salvation. He can have honor, he can have Sacraments, he can sing alleluia, he can answer amen, he can possess the gospel, he can have and preach faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; but never except in the Catholic Church will he be able to find salvation” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesiae Plebem, translation taken from Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers).

too many non catholics believe in OSAS

Our primary concern for non Catholic Christians is not the rejection of any one dogma in particular, but their rejection of any and all dogma whatsoever and their separation from the Church. There is no salvation outside the Church, and so our whole concern is to bring people to a saving relationship with Christ in His Church.

A catholic is saved but it is only temporary… yes or no

We believe in the perseverance of the elect. We believe that we cannot know with “an absolute and infallible certainty” whether we are elect and therefore whether we will receive the gift of persevering to the end unless this knowledge is given to us by a special revelation (cf. Trent on Justification, Canon 16). But we can know if we have eternal life (1 John 5:1), that is, that we are in a filial relationship with God through faith by grace (cf. John 17:3; Eph 2:8-9), and we can know that we will persevere in this friendship with God if we cling to Jesus by His grace and consider that “nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love” (Papa B16).

Here is a two post analysis explaining why we do not believe in the perseverance of all Christians.

God only commmunicates directly to His appointed within the church who a catholic needs to confide in for validation of any issue at hand. yes or no

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no?

“The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the ‘excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ’ (Phil. 3:8). ‘For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’ Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for ‘we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying’ ” (Dei Verbum).

the simple yes or no answers to these questions will comfirm what I believe about the Catholic church

I will let you know if i was wrong or right

thank you

God bless

Mpjw2, I implore you out of loving concern for you, come into the Church and make your calling and election sure!

In Christ,
Pete

 

[fxcc]

This is a really interesting question. I wonder if one interpretation might be… the Church is the mystical body of Christ, and as such all people who are saved, are saved by the action of Christ through His mystical body, even if they do not directly recognise him.

I heard of a Hindu lady who, on learning about Jesus, exclaimed “I have known Him all my life! Now at last I know His Name”.

Very well put!

As for the Catholic Church … I see it like this …

Whenever God has moved visibly to save His people, He has tangibly taken up His residence with them. First, it was via a Pillar of Cloud by day and a Pillar of Fire by night, for the Israelites. Later in salvation history God’s people had the benefit of His Holy Presence in the Ark of the Covenant - right upto Jesus’ day. In both instances God’s people could come, see, gather around and be assured of their Father’s loving presence among them.

Following this pattern, at last, with Jesus’ incarnation, “the Word was made flesh and took up His dwelling among men.” But this time around God is no longer just Spirit. His presence among His people has gone from Spirit in a Cloud and Fire, to Spirit in an Ark, to His Real Presence - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity - in the Eucharist today. This is what Jesus meant when He promised “I will not leave you orphans” and "Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Those who understand sacred scripture know that the Cloud/Fire and Ark of the OT were merely precursers of the ultimate dwelling of God with man. Is it just co-incidence that the old Ark no longer exists, after the amazing protection it once enjoyed from God? (Read 1 Samuel 5) Could it be that it has been replaced by something far greater for us?

From a Spirit who chose to reveal Himself only as a relatively ‘distant’ ‘Father’ in the OT, God has revealed Himself in the NT as a close ‘Brother’, so close that we can now be physically united with Him in Communion!!! That is the greatest wonder of The Incarnation and the greatest assurance of our joy!

Now all of the historical works of salvation were centered around the Cloud/Fire and Ark. There was never any other visible center of God’s activity among men. And so it is today. The Eucharist (in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) is not only the source, center and summit of the authentic Christian life, it is also the source, center and summit of salvation for the world. Why? Because the Eucharist is Jesus Christ Himself, crucified, died and risen! As simple as that.

All of God’s graces at work outside of the Church (that is beyond the immediacy of the Eucharist, which is the sole source of all grace) are designed to lead all men to Himself, to His one Truth, to His one saving Presence, into His one true Church - which is the Kingdom, the New Covenant family of God, in heaven and on earth. God does not have multiple kingdoms, nor multiple families nor multiple plans of salvation, even though His works may be manifested in multiple ways, both within and without His Church. Even though the Good Shepherd has ‘other flocks’, (John 10:16) His constant endeavour is to unite them as one.

Many have been called by grace to God’s one true Church. Many respond to that grace and join that one flock. Many resist, refusing to accept in faith the great Mysteries of God, especially the most profound Mystery of the Eucharist (John 6:66). Some spend their entire lives either going along with or developing heresies that deny the demonstrated works of God along with many of the Mysteries of the faith. Others resist simply out of ‘fear of the unknown’ (things that are ‘unknowable’ really). “Show me,” they cry, like the doubting St Thomas, “and only then will I believe!”. This is why Christ says, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And many, like the Hindu girl you mentioned, already have grace tugging at their hearts, drawing them towards the Truth, but have yet to discover the name of the one true God and/or discover His Real Presence among us.

To all therefore, the Church simply does what Christ commissioned her to do “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

At what point will each individual human being be at the moment of death, vis a vis knowledge and adequate acceptance of the one tangible Truth that (Who) sets us free from the bondage of sin and eternal death? Only God really knows that. The Church doesn’t. But daily, in The Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in the celebration of the Eucharist, the Church begs for the salvation of all men, in the sure knowledge that God is listening.

 

[inkaneer]

Look at the greek for the word key; it is always sigular and even in the passage where it says keys; the word means “a key” sigular, so perhaps Jesus gave 12 keys to peter to distribute to each of the others and one for himself; certainly cannot jump from the seat of Moses to the seat of Peter and jump even further with sucession at least from the words of Scripture, which the only way that could happen would be from an infalliable authority unto itself that makes to claim to know what God meant by what He said and dismiss the early church fathers understanding of the vicar of Christ being the Holy Spirit, but 1100 plus years later a man claimed the title for himself before men but not before God.

That is your faith mine is in Jesus and the written word authored by the holy Spirit and followed by the prophets, the writers and the apostles from a chuch that started on the day of pentecost and is still being built on the foundation, which is also the builder according to Scripture and that foundation and builder is Jesus Christ.

Perhaps, Maybe, If… None of these words are in the scripture verses in Mt 16:19-19. So to conjecture, fantasize, or conspire alternative meanings based upon these words is not valid exogesis of the scriptures. As for the alleged jump from Moses seat to the chair of Peter is no jump at all. Why should the Church of the New Covenant be different from the church of the Old Covenant? From Abraham on the OT church always had an earthly leader whether it be Abraham, Moses, the prophets or the Davidic kings. Of the Davidic kings they appointed stewards to administer various aspects of the kingdom. There were twelve such stewards for the twelve tribes and from the twelve one was selected to be the chief steward and he would have the keys to the house of David [See Isaiah 22:22]. Now fast forward to the NT. Jesus is of the line of David. He is a Davidic king. He too chooses twelve stewards to administer his kingdom and He appoints one of them, Peter, to be the chief steward and just as the OT chief steward held the keys to the kingdom so too Peter is given the keys to the NT kingdom. Once again what was prefigured in the OT church is perfected in the NT church.

 

[paul_c]

difference is I discern which they are by whether they are aligned with God’s and his word …the bible

Paul, I an curious, do you give the catholic church teaching authority over the written word of God?

The Catholic Church can not and will not change anything in the Bible because the truth doesn’t change. The Catholic Church recognizes an authentic interpretation of the written word that was passed on by the authors through the church. This is where you differ. You do not hold to the authentic interpretations of the written word. When you deviate from them in your own interpretations, you incorrectly assume your interpretation is correct and the interpretation handed down through the church for 2000 years is wrong. Can’t you see the folly in this. Do you really think the Holy Spirit would inspire you uniquely over the Church it founded?

. And they are under the jurisdiction of the local bishop, who has the teaching authority of the Church.

Thats great. but here you referenced the church again

Paul, I do not teach what pops in my head either. I taught Sunday school 3rd and 4th graders.

I taught the kids right out of the bible. I taught them what God teaches in His word.

Frankly, you taught them what you THINK the bible says, because this is your personal interpretation vs authoritative teaching, you are at times in error.

I fully agree with you that I am not authorized if I was catholic…

Since I am not catholic …I have ministered communion, I have prayed a confession prayer …reconciliation with people, many of time

Hence one of the reasons I am not catholic. Being catholic would limit me to what I can do and can not do.

God does not place limits on anyone as to what they can do

for God’s word says

we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us…Phil 4:13

This is foolishness. God puts limits on everyone. You are given a specific set of skills and authorizations to do a specifc job in God’s kingdom. for instance, you can’t give birth, right? Even if you really want to… You are in fact limited.

however I do not do anything unless I am guided by the Holy Spirit which makes what I do valid in God’s eyes

It is not about me it is about what God does through me:thumbsup:

How do you know its the Holy Spirit that is moving you?

 

[paul_c]

Tell that to the theif on the cross; He must be i hell even though Jesus said otherwise and he really must be in hell since he didn’t have time to be water baptized. Works are the fruit of genuine faith, not the agency of faith. Works are important, but not in the sense you put them in; that would be considered wages for the works of the Sacraments; you do much preperation and perform them and in return you expect to receive something, which nullifies grace, which is a gift and is counted as wages, the very point Paul makes in Scripture.

So you are going to deny Jesus on words because of your false interpretation of another passage of scripture? You just said Scripture validates itself. If you truly believe that then you need to triangulate all scripture passages so that they are all self consistent. When you accomplish that, you will find you are interpreting scripture as a Catholic does.

As for the thief: Here is his story from Luke 23:

39 Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40 The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41 And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
So lets review. The Good Thief ( his name is St. Dismas, by the way), defended Jesus and acknowledged his divinity. He also admitted his sins and asked Jesus for his salvation. He undoubtedly would have asked to be baptized, had he not been physically restrained from doing so.

Finally, your comments about works not saving you. They won’t if that’s why you are doing them, trying to get to heaven. if you do your works truly out of love, only then will you be saved. if you fail to love (which means to do work with out expecting anything in return), you will be condemned. This is how to triangulate these verses…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

To all …

and here is the difference between beth’s, mine and all non catholic christian beliefs…

Catholics believe the church has authority over the bible…yes or no?

What do you mean by “authority?” The Church cannot change scripture. But it has the authority to interpret it.

mpjw:

If there is an issue at hand, Catholics take it to the appointed authority within your church…yes or no?

Not sure what you mean by “issue at hand” and “appointed authority” but the Church has the authority to declare, consistent with Scripture and Tradition, what is truth regarding doctrine and morals. But th Church cannot declare doctrines contrary to Scripture and/or Tradition.

mpjw:

if a non catholic says they are saved, the catholic church does not recognize the validity in that…yes or no

Again, not exactly true. The Church does not have the authority to declare who is not saved. What the Church disagrees with (and confronts lovingly) is the doctrine that underlies the declaration “I’m saved.”

mpjw:

One reason is because too many non catholics believe in OSAS which is living their life any way they want to and believeing that God will save them at the end no mater what because at one time in the past they said a prayer of confession and they no longer have to do so.
yes or no

No. The Church opposes the notion of OSAS because it is wrong. One of the side-effects of the doctrine is what you describe.

mpjw:

A catholic is saved but it is only temporary…
that is only at the precise point following one’s confession of mortal sin committed and unconfessed sin whereby one’s soul would be restored to a state of grace.
Should one die at this precise moment, as des posted, that person would go to heaven or at least purgatory
yes or no

No. If any person dies in a state of grace, they go to Heaven. If they die in a state of grace, but still bearing some attachment to sin, the blessing of purgatory is there to make the justified perfect.

mpjw:

God only commmunicates directly to His appointed within the church who a catholic needs to confide in for validation of any issue at hand. yes or no

No.

mpjw:

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no?

Of course we believe we can read the bible on our own and communicate with God directly. How on earth could you think something less. The greatest theologians of all time were Catholics who had incredible prayer lives and studied the Scriptures with love, reverence and profound reasoning.

mpjw:

the simple yes or no answers to these questions will comfirm what I believe about the Catholic church

Instead of holding on to some preconceived notions about what the Catholic Church does and does not teach, why don’t you pick up a copy of the Catechism and simply read for yourself. You don’t even need to buy a copy. You can read it online for free. Moreover, you can read the many tracts available for download from the Catholic.com website. They are pretty clear about many of the apparent misconceptions you may have heard.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Abu]

Beth Martin
Same circular reasoning that Abu espoused. The Church has it authority based on Scripture and gives itself the authority to determine the authority (the Scripture) to interpret. there is but one universal and holy authority and is came down from heaven and it isn’t the Church.

I guess that’s why she denies Christ – she has fallen into the trap of being unable to think clearly with reason!

1. She claims that the Bible is inspired but is totally unable to say how she knows the Bible is inspired it’s just her feeling, and she interprets everything according to her feeling! For any others confused by her, those who have fallen into the same trap that snaps closed on reason should know that in 1910, Professor Gerald Birney Smith of the University of Chicago, gave a paper to the 28th annual Baptist Congress which was published, somewhat revised, in the Biblical World 37, 1911, (p 19-29).
   Smith wrote: “The exact determination of the Canon of Scripture was never a burning issue until after the Reformation…It was only when Luther denied the authority of the Church and appealed to the Word of God alone that there was felt to be any pressing need for defining the exact list of authoritative books.” Now of course self-determination began! Luther and Calvin tried different “tests”! Like all non-Catholics Smith ends up in a quandary. He “What about other tests…? he asks. “Can we, for example, say that the Bible is infallible, while other books are fallible? Nothing is more noticeable than the gradual disappearance of tha word ‘infallible’ from present-day theologies.”!

What Professor Smith demonstrates is that for a Protestant there is simply no way to know which books are inspired – he has no sure means of knowing! Another Protestant scholar, Gerhard Maier (1977), writes “Consequently revelation defines itself…Scripture considers itself as revelation” (p 63). Beth Martin’s fallacy – inspired Scripture is inspired because inspired Scripture says it is inspired Scripture! That’s her disproven fantasy!
[See* Free From All Error, Fr William Most, Prow Books, 1985, p 9-11].

1. It takes a real square to feel that it is circular to acknowledge with reason that the historical accounts in the Gospels factually through eyewitnesses show the establishment of Christ’s Church on Peter the Rock, His miracles, His claim to be God and His Resurrection, and to accept that His Church with His authority can then teach infallibly and tell us what writings are the inspired Word of God.

No wonder they are so confused.

 

[mpjw2]

Thank you Robert Matthew Pete and Paul for answering my questions.

Robert I could take your advice and read the chatechism…but I am sure you will agree it will take a long time to read…that is why I question my concern here.

From all your answers I can draw some solid conclusions…correct me if I am wrong

first and foremost here is one of my largest misunderstandings about what a catholic believes or does not believe…

Catholics as a a whole are taught they can read the bible on their own and communicate with God directly
yes or no?

you said

Of course we believe we can read the bible on our own and communicate with God directly. How on earth could you think something less.

Robert thank you for asking…

on another thread I made the following response to a catholic who is on this thread .they will recognize it I am sure…I do not feel the need to mention names

Posted by mpjw2

I get my answers from God… no website

this catholics’ only response with no added verification…

Not many people get communication directly from God.

this sure contradicts you saying…

we **believe we can **read the bible on our own and communicate with God directly.

well can you or can’t you communicate with God directly?

Do you believe a non catholic can?

and if a non catholic can communicate with God directly, then God does not ever lie…right?

So why would a non catholic need to go the the catholic church to comfirm anything God had to say?

I believe it is a slap in God’s face to do so.

If God were to tell me something directly…

How do you believe God will feel if I were to say to Him…

“God, before I believe you let me check with Father Jones at the catholic church down the street church”

The Church cannot change scripture. But it has the authority to interpret it.

And you believe the Catholic Church is the only church which has the authority to interpret the bible correctly…yes or no?

Not sure what you mean by “issue at hand”

ok I be lot more specific …

If a non catholic adult (never been catholic) wants to join the catholic church he needs to be baptized, need to confess his sins, needs to receive communion…

A priest or above is the only people in the church who can minister these sacraments
yes or no?

Here is one main reason I am not catholic.

I have ministered communion, I have led another in confession prayer, and should the opportunity be there, I look forward to the day when I baptize someone.

If a catholic is not appointed (priest or higher) they can not minister the sacraments …right or wrong?

When it comes to salvation…

A catholic is saved but it is only temporary…

you answered

No… .

salvation is temporary right?

you went on to say…

If any person dies in a state of grace, they go to Heaven. If they die in a state of grace, but still bearing some attachment to sin, the blessing of purgatory is there to make the justified perfect

I understand what you believe here:thumbsup:

but at any moment immediately after confession of all sin, a catholic is saved and their soul is in a state of grace… yes or no?

however, that condition will not last for long because there is a good chance in the near future one will sin again and no longer be in a state of grace…yes or no?

if a non catholic says they are saved, the catholic church does not recognize the validity in that…yes or no

The Church does not have the authority to declare who is not saved.

Ok…I for one believe I am saved

I have received a lot of objection from posters on these threads
One even posted that I will never hear a catholic say they are saved

I wonder why?

If a catholic has just confessed ALL their sin and believe in their heart that their soul is in a state of grace at that precise moment only…they are saved and should they die right at that moment only they will go to at least purgatory and then to heaven …right or wrong

What is that doctrine that underlies the declaration “I’m saved.”, please explain if you can?

I will rephrase the following …I believe you misread something…

OSAS can be described as …a person living their life any way they want to and believing that God will save them at the end because… at one time in the past, they said a prayer of confession and they no longer have to confess.

Does this pretty much describe OSAS in your opinion yes or no?

and if it does…

what I was asking…too many non catholics believe in OSAS… yes or no?

there are many non catholics who take confession and maintaining a state of grace as serious as you do too.

it is in those times only, being in a state of grace, that I will declare I am saved.

And I do not believe that the only way anyone can achieve being in a state of grace is if they were catholic.

If that were true…only catholics go to heaven

Thank you for your tiime all in answering my concerns.

It is my hope that we all can gain a better knowledge about each other from our communication on these threads

God bless

mpjw