Very Good and Orthodox sermon in defense of the EF

[GangGreen]

This was excellent. Thank you for sharing. Now try to get your parish to offer the EF. I have tried with 2 pastors and was told no.

So to hear the EF Mass I need go to a neighboring parish.

Most pastors have no desire to offer the EF. If you’re lucky to find one who is a friend of tradition, you’ll have your in.

I’ve always thought about a route that lay people could take to get the EF in their parishes that’s a bit different than just requesting it. I haven’t tried this, but it’s certainly worth a thought.

First you obviously need to learn and understand the EF well. Then find a young priest. I’ve found that they tend to be more open to tradition. Become friendly with him and if he has an interest in the EF offer to help him learn it and be his altar server. Maybe at first you can just do the Mass in private (most churches have a private chapel somewhere) and then as he gets more comfortable with it maybe he can get permission to start doing it in the actual church at a time when there are no other Masses going on (even if it needs to start on a weekday or at some time on a Saturday night). If it starts to take off, you (knowing how to be the server) can then help train new servers as well.

 

[CutlerB]

Most pastors have no desire to offer the EF. If you’re lucky to find one who is a friend of tradition, you’ll have your in.

Thank God Summorum Pontificum doesn’t say “if the Pastor wants to offer it”, but that it must be provided, if certain criteria are met, which does not include the pastor’s desire.

 

[GangGreen]

Thank God Summorum Pontificum doesn’t say “if the Pastor wants to offer it”, but that it must be provided, if certain criteria are met, which does not include the pastor’s desire.

Saying the black and doing the red is hard enough

 

[otjm]

Thank God Summorum Pontificum doesn’t say “if the Pastor wants to offer it”, but that it must be provided, if certain criteria are met, which does not include the pastor’s desire.

All of that hinges on two issues; the first, not having been defined, is “Art. 5, § 1. In parishes where a group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably” Neither the term “group” nor the term “stably” has been defined. A group of 10 people in a 1000 member parish may not make the cut. 50 might, subject of course to the already existing Mass schedule parishes with one priest already saying 3 Masses on Sunday is beyond the norm by 2; the 3rd Mass requires specific permission. Not likely to happen without a much larger group, or some other priest coming in to say it.

If the priest cannot provide it, then "Art. 7. Where some group of lay faithful, mentioned in art. 5§1 does not obtain what it requests from the pastor, it should inform the diocesan Bishop of the fact. The Bishop is earnestly requested to grant their desire. If he cannot provide for this kind of celebration, let the matter be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. "

You are correct that it does not depend on the pastor’s desire; but the issue is not automatic by any stretch of the imagination.

It requires a stable group (size undefined) and a priest qualified to say it who is willing to say it, and available.

 

[otjm]

This was excellent. Thank you for sharing. Now try to get your parish to offer the EF. I have tried with 2 pastors and was told no.

So to hear the EF Mass I need go to a neighboring parish.

That is likely to be the result when there is not a large enough group in a given parish to be able to overcome basic logistics. In the archdiocese of Chicago, where it would seem to be fairly widespread (12 parishes last time I looked), there were well over 300 that did not have it. That is going to mean that it will be a multi-parish supported Mass.

 

[CutlerB]

All of that hinges on two issues; the first, not having been defined, is “Art. 5, § 1. In parishes where a group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably” Neither the term “group” nor the term “stably” has been defined. A group of 10 people in a 1000 member parish may not make the cut. 50 might, subject of course to the already existing Mass schedule parishes with one priest already saying 3 Masses on Sunday is beyond the norm by 2; the 3rd Mass requires specific permission. Not likely to happen without a much larger group, or some other priest coming in to say it.

If the priest cannot provide it, then "Art. 7. Where some group of lay faithful, mentioned in art. 5§1 does not obtain what it requests from the pastor, it should inform the diocesan Bishop of the fact. The Bishop is earnestly requested to grant their desire. If he cannot provide for this kind of celebration, let the matter be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. "

You are correct that it does not depend on the pastor’s desire; but the issue is not automatic by any stretch of the imagination.

It requires a stable group (size undefined) and a priest qualified to say it who is willing to say it, and available.

Indeed. Though I should go by Mass attendance numbers, not parish members.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

All of that hinges on two issues; the first, not having been defined, is “Art. 5, § 1. In parishes where a group of faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition exists stably” Neither the term “group” nor the term “stably” has been defined. A group of 10 people in a 1000 member parish may not make the cut. 50 might, subject of course to the already existing Mass schedule parishes with one priest already saying 3 Masses on Sunday is beyond the norm by 2; the 3rd Mass requires specific permission. Not likely to happen without a much larger group, or some other priest coming in to say it.

Isn’t it defined? The “INSTRUCTION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO” on the Vatican website seems like it gives a definition.

1. A coetus fidelium (“group of the faithful”) can be said to be stabiliter existens (“existing in a stable manner”), according to the sense of art. 5 § 1 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, when it is constituted by some people of an individual parish who, even after the publication of the Motu Proprio, come together by reason of their veneration for the Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, and who ask that it might be celebrated in the parish church or in an oratory or chapel; such a coetus (“group”) can also be composed of persons coming from different parishes or dioceses, who gather together in a specific parish church or in an oratory or chapel for this purpose.
   vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html

That is what a Google search turned up for “Summorum Pontificum stable group.” What bearing does this have on SP?

 

[CutlerB]

Isn’t it defined? The “INSTRUCTION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO” on the Vatican website seems like it gives a definition.

1. A coetus fidelium (“group of the faithful”) can be said to be stabiliter existens (“existing in a stable manner”), according to the sense of art. 5 § 1 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, when it is constituted by some people of an individual parish who, even after the publication of the Motu Proprio, come together by reason of their veneration for the Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, and who ask that it might be celebrated in the parish church or in an oratory or chapel; such a coetus (“group”) can also be composed of persons coming from different parishes or dioceses, who gather together in a specific parish church or in an oratory or chapel for this purpose.
   vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html

That is what a Google search turned up for “Summorum Pontificum stable group.” What bearing does this have on SP?

Good job, I didn’t remember that.

 

[otjm]

Isn’t it defined? The “INSTRUCTION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO” on the Vatican website seems like it gives a definition.

1. A coetus fidelium (“group of the faithful”) can be said to be stabiliter existens (“existing in a stable manner”), according to the sense of art. 5 § 1 of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum, when it is constituted by some people of an individual parish who, even after the publication of the Motu Proprio, come together by reason of their veneration for the Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, and who ask that it might be celebrated in the parish church or in an oratory or chapel; such a coetus (“group”) can also be composed of persons coming from different parishes or dioceses, who gather together in a specific parish church or in an oratory or chapel for this purpose.
   vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html

That is what a Google search turned up for “Summorum Pontificum stable group.” What bearing does this have on SP?

“some people” does not define it - the point I was trying to make.

Let’s look at some examples. A parish with 250 families, and 50 families ask. That is 20% of the parish asking.

A parish with 1000 families, and 20 people (some of whom are in the same family) ask - 15 families; that is one point five percent. The former will probably have far more sway in the matter as they represent a significant number of families.

It is far more likely that a group of people coming from several parishes will be able, amongst the group, to get the EF said in one of the parishes (or possibly rotting among several, depending on schedules). I have heard and seen comments where people wanting the EF have said that 5 or 10 people is enough to trigger it. In the real world, that is not going to happen; due to cost, availability of priests (or lack thereof), scheduling, and the real number of people who are going to come. Rome simply has not said what the minimum number is to trigger fulfilling the request. If people want to have the EF said then probably the best advice that could be given would be to talk with people in several parishes which have the EF, and find out what they did; how many they had, and what they had to do.

 

[kaalpeela]

The EF needs no defense. It is an official and appropriate form of liturgy within the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, just as is the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

“some people” does not define it - the point I was trying to make.

Let’s look at some examples. A parish with 250 families, and 50 families ask. That is 20% of the parish asking.

A parish with 1000 families, and 20 people (some of whom are in the same family) ask - 15 families; that is one point five percent. The former will probably have far more sway in the matter as they represent a significant number of families.

It is far more likely that a group of people coming from several parishes will be able, amongst the group, to get the EF said in one of the parishes (or possibly rotting among several, depending on schedules). I have heard and seen comments where people wanting the EF have said that 5 or 10 people is enough to trigger it. In the real world, that is not going to happen; due to cost, availability of priests (or lack thereof), scheduling, and the real number of people who are going to come. Rome simply has not said what the minimum number is to trigger fulfilling the request. If people want to have the EF said then probably the best advice that could be given would be to talk with people in several parishes which have the EF, and find out what they did; how many they had, and what they had to do.

I think if you are reading it to the letter, “some people” could be as few as two, since it is an indefinite plural amount, but of course other factors will be an impediment.

 

[Cat]

I think if you are reading it to the letter, “some people” could be as few as two, since it is an indefinite plural amount, but of course other factors will be an impediment.

I would be concerned that a Mass established at the request of just two people would cause talk in the parish because it appears “exclusive,” which is something that the Catholic Church, including our beloved Pope Francis, is trying to avoid.

Even if the Mass is obviously and joyfully open to the rest of the parish, I still think people would wonder why those two people had so much clout. It might cause people to become embittered against the priest and the Church, as they would say, “Well, all I asked is that we stop sing Amazing Grace in the Mass, but the priest won’t even listen to me. But those two ask for a Latin Mass, and the priest re-arranged the whole church schedule to make it happen! Harumph!”

Does this make sense? Can you see this type of thing happening in your parish? I sure can.

Here’s another reason why I would be careful about arguing in favor of two people (or any very small group of people ) being able to get a priest to hold a certain type of Mass. It’s very likely in many parishes that there are MANY parishioners who would like to see a more contemporary Mass with more contemporary or even rock music with a band; e.g., the Life Teen Mass. The pastor of the parish should have the ability to say “No” if in his wisdom and based on guidance from the Holy Spirit, he senses that this type of Mass (or for that matter, the EF) would not edify and build up his flock of sheep.

We just need to trust our priests rather than assuming that they are out to oppose and stifle us.

 

[ProVobis]

That is likely to be the result when there is not a large enough group in a given parish to be able to overcome basic logistics. In the archdiocese of Chicago, where it would seem to be fairly widespread (12 parishes last time I looked), there were well over 300 that did not have it.

If you check the history, though, you will find that most of the EFs in the Chicago area arose because the OF failed in that parish. You counted 300 but you didn’t count the number of parishes that consolidated or had to offer Masses in other than English to support themselves. (There are 24 different languages in the Chicago archdiocese at last count.) Even in the parishes that are “successful” the number of Masses in total are but a fraction of what they were back in the late 50’s. That said, there is a growing demand for Spanish priests, last I heard. And it is quite unlikely that the EF would ever become popular with them. Don’t ask me why, though.

 

[otjm]

I think if you are reading it to the letter, “some people” could be as few as two, since it is an indefinite plural amount, but of course other factors will be an impediment.

Some meaning “2” has been the interpretation of some (more than 20) people. In the real world, that hasn’t happened and there is no viable realistic possibility that 2 people are going to get their desire. If that were the case we would have thousands of claims being made to Rome, since no one would be fulfilling their demands. There are reasons why after almost 7 years, there are 400+ parishes with the EF out of 7,000+ parishes. There are not enough priests available trained and able and willing to say the Mass (and contrary to some people’s opinion, no priest can be demanded to say it) for starters; in addition, in many if not most places, the EF Masses are being attended by people from nearby parishes. It is hard to track information, but I have yet to see it expanding to several nearby parishes where it is offered, although in some circumstances, it seems to move around within a group of parishes - that is, This week in Parish A, next week in Parish B.

 

[otjm]

If you check the history, though, you will find that most of the EFs in the Chicago area arose because the OF failed in that parish. You counted 300 but you didn’t count the number of parishes that consolidated or had to offer Masses in other than English to support themselves. (There are 24 different languages in the Chicago archdiocese at last count.) Even in the parishes that are “successful” the number of Masses in total are but a fraction of what they were back in the late 50’s. That said, there is a growing demand for Spanish priests, last I heard. And it is quite unlikely that the EF would ever become popular with them. Don’t ask me why, though.

I don’t have any information one way or the other about any failures of the OF. Given that SP allows one Sunday Mass, unless the 12 or so parishes have only the EF on the weekend, then it would not seem that there was a “failure”. Parish consolidation in large part seems to revolve around cities back east which have gone through a breakdown of a previously fairly homogenous ethnic group, coupled with a general move to the suburbs. So language breakdowns can have a strong impact on, say, a Polish parish or a German parish.

The bottom line is that after almost 7 years, the availability of the EF is pretty much as Pope Benedict predicted in his accompanying letter - it would be in the minority. Undoubtedly there has been recalcitrance on the part of some diocese’s to make it available, and if so, I would presume that people, if they were serious, would have appealed to Rome. There doesn’t seem to be much information about appeals, either because there are few or none, or Rome has seen fit to take up the matter privately. There were some who predicted that the EF would catch on like wildfire. Those predictions still have yet to be proved true.

As to why our Hispanic brothers and sisters show little or no desire, someone would have to do a survey, I suppose, to ding out why. Perhaps there is enough similarity between Spanish and Latin (I only took the latter, so I can’t say), that the issue comes down to rubrics rather than language.

It also may be a matter of education level. I have not seen any surveys done, but I would be willing to make a small bet that if a survey was made of the EF masses in the US, one would find that there was a significant statistical difference between the average EF Mass and the average OF Mass in terms of college and advanced degrees, with the EF having a larger number.

 

[kozlosap]

OTJM - I would be one of your sample group with a MA degree who loves the OF! I was actually alive in the 1950’s and attended the EF every week. It holds no romance for me. What I remember is old ladies (I’m now one of those!) saying the rosary aloud during mass and other people reading prayer books, but in no way were they engaged in the celebration of the Mass until they stood and went up to receive the Eucharist.

My dear daughter who has a JD (Doctor of Law) Also prefers Mass in the vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

What I remember is old ladies (I’m now one of those!) saying the rosary aloud during mass and other people reading prayer books, but in no way were they engaged in the celebration of the Mass until they stood and went up to receive the Eucharist.

I think it’s rather unfair to compare the way Mass was celebrated back in the 50’s or 60’s as it is now. Believe me, the EF is not done the same (perhaps cavalier) way it was done back then. After all, it’s on its best behavior now.

 

[ProVobis]

The bottom line is that after almost 7 years, the availability of the EF is pretty much as Pope Benedict predicted in his accompanying letter - it would be in the minority.

Not if the EF were imposed the way the OF was back in the 60’s. Just sayin.

It also may be a matter of education level.

There may be some correlation there, especially among those who study Latin with a passion for the language. Which isn’t as rare as those who study nuclear physics, though.

 

[otjm]

Not if the EF were imposed the way the OF was back in the 60’s. Just sayin.

There may be some correlation there, especially among those who study Latin with a passion for the language. Which isn’t as rare as those who study nuclear physics, though.

Yeah well, given the composition of the world’s bishops, the likelihood of any such imposition is less than the chance of the Cascadian Subduction Zone letting go.

 

[grasscutter]

No clue; the first I heard of it was on this forum. My comments were simply to explain where this took place.

The fudge is great - I would invite your support of the monks.

Very good to know. I will look into it (the fudge that is - especially for gifts), I really love knowing about opportunities for presents that also support good and worthy causes. Plus, people might be getting tired of my homemade scarves by now.

I apologize for going off topic a bit!