VERY pushy family member

[ChibiViolet]

Pray for her.

If I were you, I would not let her into my home or open anymore of her letters.

 

[revert_jen]

Not to be overly dramatic, but your family member sounds like maybe she is a bit emotionally or mentally unwell?
To suddenly be so consumed and aggressive as she is, to “rant and scream”, to run screaming from the house for no good reason…make me think this is not about religion at all, but that she needs some kind of emotional support or help?

Just something to keep in mind, in case what is happening here is a cry for help.

I have to say, that is what came into my mind as well. She sounds a bit unhinged. I mean, a lot people do some obnoxious things after a conversion experience (I know I did), and if she were just telling you you are going to hell because you’re Catholic–well, we’ve all heard that before. But ranting and screaming sounds out of control.

The other thing that comes to mind is to calmly tell her, “Nobody ever made a convert by screaming at them. If there were any way for you to convince us, it would have to be calm and rational. I don’t think there is a way you could convince us, but I know that what you are doing is NOT the way.”

Good luck!

–Jen

 

[skigirl1689]

I really wonder if she is mainline evangelical as most mainline evangelicals are not like this, so please don’t lump all evangelicals together. I’m evangelical Lutheran and though most disagree with Catholicism, the majority accept Catholics are Christians, including myself as half of my family is Catholic. At least, the ones I know.

The fact that she will not tell you which denomination she is involved with is a huge red flag to me. It almost hints at a possible fringe group or cult, and I don’t say that lightly.

As to her reaction to the crucifix, any Christian really should not be offended by it as it is the way Christ obtained the possibility of our salvation. I agree with the others who wondered if mental illness is a factor. You may have to set boundaries and put distance between her and your family.

The best to you!

 

[Erich]

Hopefully Jay can get this family member focused on “letter writing” and primarily with himself

Maybe start with some of the questions from here… particularly #'s 11-15

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks to everyone for their responses, I really appreciate the advice, and the chance to vent.
Luckilly, we do not live close enough for daily or even weekly visits, so the distance helps. The problem mostly arises when the entire family gathers every few months, somehow it turns from a peaceful dinner to a sermon and shout fest lol. The majority of my family are Baptist and honestly could care less what church each other attends. Me, my wife, parents, and inlaws are the Catholic bunch, and we all get along with the Baptist side as well. So as you can imagine this family member is confusing to all of us!

I read a response that mentioned letting the fever run its course, and I sorta feel that could be the case, like once she relaxes and the “new” wears off she may be easier to deal with. I always defend my faith, but I am trying to do it calmly with her, because she is not a hateful person by nature. I pray it does not come to a heated exchange with any of my family. Also, I am glad she is happy with her church. I just want her to realize other people are happy with their churches too.

I think it is better for her to “realize” her prayers are a more likely route for your reclamation than direct preaching. The strategy of responding to her preaching as if she were preaching to a herd of milk cows is not a bad one. You can kind of prick your ears at her while she’s railing in your direction, but then when she stops without having chased anyone, calmly go back to chewing. No mooing necessary; you don’t even have to look at each other about it.

If she won’t let up, you can remind her that it is forgiving and not admonishment that is commanded seventy times seven times a day, but the best strategy is to avoid getting her hopes up. Once you are certain that she is immune to “counter-witnessing,” I’d say “play dead and hope she gives up and goes away.”

While the suggestion is well-meant, I would not try the letter-writing route. So many bad feuds have been started by one family hoping to change the mind of another by the medium of an earnestly-written letter. The only group less likely to get good results from an earnestly-written letter is a group of female friends still in middle school or early high school. Unfortunately, the written form of an earnest letter makes it even more likely than an earnest speech to produce a grudge fed by a phrase taken out of context. People get emotional when they read earnest letters, and emotional readings do not tend to be just readings. Write her an earnest letter, and it is more likely than not that she will quit talking to you at all.

Boy, they will be prayin’ for y’all down at her church, though. That is probably not a kosher method to gain an army of prayer advocates, so don’t let that tempt you!

 

[JRKH]

Maybe start with some of the questions from here… particularly #'s 11-15

From a cursory glance it looks like a good site…and possibly helpful…But truthfully, my approach would be different.

I would let her take the lead. I would ask one question…“Why do you believe Catholics are not Christian?” This will undoubtedly bring an avalanche of verses and tracts and links (if is via e-mail). I would then respond…“Interesting…Let me look into these”. I would say this even if I already have “pat answers” for some of the accusations.
Next I would determine how to address them - one at a time or grouped into various categories. Then would carefully provide feedback - as often as possible in the form of questions. For instance…if she talks about “graven images” one could ask…“Well if this is true then, what about these passages in the OT describing the animals and such carved on the Temple, and the angels on the Ark of the Covenant?”
If she brings up the Rosary as “vain and repetitious prayer”…one could gently point out that the key word is “vain”, not “repetitious”…If she brings up call no man father…you can ask about Paul referring to himself as Father and Jesus referring to the Patriarchs as “Fathers” etc.
Eventually - if she is willing to try to answer these things, she will have to start thinking on her own. Then the question becomes…Can we ignore one part of the bible in favor of another? Paul says “saved by faith, not by works of the law”, James says faith without works is dead…Can we ignore James in favor of Paul? Can we ignore Paul in favor of James? Or do we need to strike the balance that makes both of them true since they are both the word of God…

Sorry - I got carried away…

Let her take the lead and present her (or more likely her pastor’s) arguments. Then you can carefully and charitably guide her to see the fallacies in each.

Peace
James

 

[LSK]

I have a different take on this only because I wonder if there is some sort of mental illness involved. I only say this because it sounds like you are describing someone who is in the throws of a kind of religiousity or mania. Does she have other family members you could talk to about this? Is this something that has come on all at once? The reason I am suspicious is she won’t talk about ‘her’ denomination. Something just feels hinky about it, but maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Aidan12]

The fact that she will not tell you which denomination she is involved with is a huge red flag to me. It almost hints at a possible fringe group or cult, and I don’t say that lightly.

I agree. This sounds like a cult, not mainstream evangelical. Normally, when an evangelical makes an assertion, you can ask for a verse in Scripture to back up his assertion and he’ll give you one. Then it is possible to engage in a rational conversation. She doesn’t appear to be doing that.

The good news is that statistically, there will come a point when she will want to leave this group. So leave a door open for her. Meanwhile, make your boundaries clear. No yelling or screaming in your home, where she is a guest. If you are feeling brave, you might also remind her that Satan is the accuser (Rev. 12:10) and when you hear her negative comments about your faith, it sounds to you like something Satan would say.

 

[EasterJoy]

I have a different take on this only because I wonder if there is some sort of mental illness involved. I only say this because it sounds like you are describing someone who is in the throws of a kind of religiousity or mania. Does she have other family members you could talk to about this? Is this something that has come on all at once? The reason I am suspicious is she won’t talk about ‘her’ denomination. Something just feels hinky about it, but maybe I’m wrong.

Think operant conditioning: e.g., slot machines. My thinking is that even a maniac can eventually figure out when pressing the bar ain’t never going to get her the peanut.

The route to extinguish a behavior is to consistently fail to reward it. The route to encouraging a behavior is to reward it inconsistently. Again: think slot machine. One reward, and you have set yourself way way back in your goal of extinguishing the behavior. One sizable reward, and you may just produce a gambling addiction.

 

[LSK]

Yeah, EasterJoy, I am wondering as well…is this behavior she can turn off and on? If so, I would think you could simply tell her what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in your home, return the mail marked “delivery refused” and otherwise make it known that the person is not allowed to behave in that manner.

 

[JillianRose]

Hi all,

for the past few months a family member has been pushing her denomination on everyone. She is going as far coming to the homes of the catholic members of out family and preaching about our hell-bound status. She is involved in a charismatic church but I do not know the denomination and she will not tell anyone. She will not even talk about the possibility that catholics are also christian. I am at a loss, because I try to be polite and just tell her that as catholics we are christian and worship the same God. But she will rant and scream over me. It bothers my mother greatly. She constantly writes letters to all the family either telling them to turn to God (though most are christian just not of her denomination) or telling them to turn from the catholic side of the family. My wife informed me that she entered our new home a few days ago, but ran out screaming it was unholy because she saw the crucifix by the door and the statue of Our Lady of Grace on the mantle! I just wish she would talk with me, and give us a chance to calm her fears. I do think she is doing this mostly from a sense of fear and ignorance rather than hate. I am open to advice!

I am so sorry you are going through this. I have a best friend, who well, might not be my best friend much longer. See, when I was a lax catholic, she would talk all kinds of smack-a-lacka about Catholics. It did help that her church had Catholic converts to her faith. I immediately could tell why, (IN HER CASE ONLY) they left the Catholic Church. The info the fed her were either lies or they never were really practicing Catholics. You just have to pray. Really what I had to tell my friend is even if I was never catholic, I would not join your church. I would never join a hate mongering church. Since she is probably all “Sola Scriptura” tell her these verses.(Which I will post in a minute because my little one is getting a time out.) BRB… LOL

 

[DarkLight]

I have a parent who can be like this. The biggest thing I had to learn was not to respond at all. Not just stay calm - if she’s ranting and raving I will simply act like she’s not saying anything at all. Continue with whatever you were doing before she started.

 

[JillianRose]

I have a parent who can be like this. The biggest thing I had to learn was not to respond at all. Not just stay calm - if she’s ranting and raving I will simply act like she’s not saying anything at all. Continue with whatever you were doing before she started.

A great relaxer is pretend you are Charlie Brown. Remember when the teacher would talk?

Wa wa wa wa wa …lol

 

[JillianRose]

I am so sorry. I did not mean to forget to post you those helpful hints/scripture. I have heard every thing. I swear they need new material!!

In order to speak to them you are gonna have to 1. Stoop to their level, put a crusifix to there forhead and tell them in the name of Jesus of nazerith you comand the devil out of her. 2. You can combat them with the only thing they rant about “Sola Scripture”

I would recomend the latter. lol

The fact that she is going house to house, is most likely because of something she is misinterpreting in the Bible. Al ot of Protestan secs do.
Many believe that Paul preached the gospel from house to house, to those who were unconverted. This is because of a misunderstanding of Acts 20:20. But when the entire context is examined, starting in verse 17, the proper meaning can be understood.
Paul “sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the Church,” saying to them, “I…have taught you [the elders] publicly, and from house to house.” He taught the Church leaders in their own homes. Paul did not go from house to house, teaching whoever answered the door].At his own hired house in Rome, Paul “received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God,” which Christ had commanded him to preach (Acts 28:30-31). Christ had personally taught the gospel to Paul (I Cor. 15:8; Gal. 1:11-2:2).**One of Christ’s teachings was that we are not to force our beliefs on anyone (Matt. 7:6). **This makes clear that Paul did not try to convert people by preaching from house to house. His public teachings were carried out mainly in the Jewish synagogues.
Acts 2:46 is another widely misunderstood verse: “And they [the twelve apostles and other disciples], continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness.” It is also important to note that these individuals were unified. They continued daily with “one accord.” They all believed the same things—were already of like mind. This scripture is describing people who ate together, just as someone might invite friends and close acquaintances to his home for a meal and fellowship. It is not talking about people who were going to the homes of strangers, trying to convert them. ( I don’t know what state you live in, but in Indiana a man could get shot!! LOL) In this particular circumstance, many from different nations had gathered at Jerusalem to keep Pentecost, one of God’s annual feasts. Since they had traveled a great distance and had no home in Jerusalem, the brethren there invited them to their homes to eat. Converted Christians were eating in the homes of other converted Christians—they were not preaching in the homes of unconverted individuals or families.
In Luke 10:5-7, we find direct instruction from Christ not to preach from house to house: “And into whatsoever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.”
Christians should never try to force anyone to accept the truth of the Bible. Christ showed that God’s Word is too valuable and precious for us to flaunt carelessly. We are instructed to “let your light so shine before men” (Matt. 5:16). A light does not make noise. Therefore, Christians are to teach by their examples!

Moral of this explaination: If she is convinced that Catholic are not “saved” or what have ya, she is going about it all wrong anyways. Remeber, she could not understand Our faith since her Bible has 7 less books.

For Christmas I suggest you give her Devin Rose : If Protestantism is true: Poetestantism meets Rome.

Blessings,

Jill

 

[EasterJoy]

A great relaxer is pretend you are Charlie Brown. Remember when the teacher would talk?

Wa wa wa wa wa …lol

Yes, like that! The less drama dished up, the better.
The Lord could tell the storm to be quiet and be obeyed, but sometimes the rest of us just have to wait out the wind.

 

[underacloud]

Mostly you will just have to let this “fever” run it’s course. I DO believe that letter writing might be the best recourse. Offer to “talk” of these things but only in writing. Explain how upsetting these things are in person and how confusing it can get and that you feel more comfortable doing it via letter or e-mail. Tell her that you would love to discuss her reasons for believing Catholics to not be Christians - but just not in person…This gives her both hope and focus…It allows you to channel the discussion somewhat. AND it keeps emotional outbursts to a minimum…
You might also explain in writing how upsetting these confrontations are for your mom and that is another reason do this privately and in writing.
Plus - writing things down makes it so much harder misunderstand each other…

I like your approach James.

I had many such experiences at school and university…not yelling, etc, but protestants telling my I’m going to hell. Typically, such people don’t recognise Catholics as Christians, but when pressed so many of their assumptions are revealed as misunderstandings. Many protestants who think this way can be persuaded via polite discussion of the issues, and an assurance that Catholics aren’t trying to earn our way into heaven, but rely entirely on the graces of Christ.

Of course, some will never be persuaded, at which point you agree to disagree and let it go.

I would let her take the lead. I would ask one question…“Why do you believe Catholics are not Christian?” This will undoubtedly bring an avalanche of verses and tracts and links (if is via e-mail). I would then respond…“Interesting…Let me look into these”. I would say this even if I already have “pat answers” for some of the accusations.
Next I would determine how to address them - one at a time or grouped into various categories. Then would carefully provide feedback - as often as possible in the form of questions. For instance…if she talks about “graven images” one could ask…“Well if this is true then, what about these passages in the OT describing the animals and such carved on the Temple, and the angels on the Ark of the Covenant?”
If she brings up the Rosary as “vain and repetitious prayer”…one could gently point out that the key word is “vain”, not “repetitious”…If she brings up call no man father…you can ask about Paul referring to himself as Father and Jesus referring to the Patriarchs as “Fathers” etc.
Eventually - if she is willing to try to answer these things, she will have to start thinking on her own. Then the question becomes…Can we ignore one part of the bible in favor of another? Paul says “saved by faith, not by works of the law”, James says faith without works is dead…Can we ignore James in favor of Paul? Can we ignore Paul in favor of James? Or do we need to strike the balance that makes both of them true since they are both the word of God…

Sorry - I got carried away…

Let her take the lead and present her (or more likely her pastor’s) arguments. Then you can carefully and charitably guide her to see the fallacies in each.

Peace
James

It’s also worth pointing out that there are many great books that address these issues…common answers to “Bible Christians” regarding Catholicism. A conversation via mail may be more personal and thereby productive, but these books may do a better job at concisely and clearly answering the common objections. You could either offer her such a book, or use such a book as the basis for your correspondence.

 

[Jay417]

Update:

I talked with her daughter today about the situation. She was unaware of how bad her mother had gotten. According to her she noticed her mom becoming very involved in this church over the past several months, and being a little more “preachy” in her daily chats, but she did not know she was being so pushy with other family members. She agreed to talk with her and remind her of how much she herself once hated “pushy” church people, and tell her that a person’s spiritual journey is personal. This alone will help greatly I think. Oh and she said the church is a non-denominational evangelical outreach center.

As for mental health, I found out that while she has never been diagnosed with anything, most family members who grew up with her agree that she had an extreme personality. Meaning that she always did things to excess.

I thank everyone for providing me with scriptures to use if need be; thankfully I’m able to mostly ignore it as it goes on around me.

 

[JRKH]

I like your approach James.

Thanks…It’s probably because I find discussing things like this - on the internet - far easier than doing so in person…i always think of the best response 3 hours after the conversation is over…

I had many such experiences at school and university…not yelling, etc, but protestants telling my I’m going to hell. Typically, such people don’t recognise Catholics as Christians, but when pressed so many of their assumptions are revealed as misunderstandings. Many protestants who think this way can be persuaded via polite discussion of the issues, and an assurance that Catholics aren’t trying to earn our way into heaven, but rely entirely on the graces of Christ.

Of course, some will never be persuaded, at which point you agree to disagree and let it go.

Of course this assume that you can have a calm reasoned discussion. Th eOP’s situation would require a different approach.

It’s also worth pointing out that there are many great books that address these issues…common answers to “Bible Christians” regarding Catholicism. A conversation via mail may be more personal and thereby productive, but these books may do a better job at concisely and clearly answering the common objections. You could either offer her such a book, or use such a book as the basis for your correspondence.

This is very true…
The problem with this is that someone who is as “far out” as this gal is won’t read any of these books…Heck - she runs from a crucifix!!!
But I do agree that such books and resources are excellent items to have for study and providing personal answers.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Jay - this is good to hear. Hopefully things will begin to settle down…

Peace
James

 

[SurlyMermaid]

Wow. She sounds like my first husband’s sister. She did the same sorts of things to us.

My former sister-in-law (who, when lucid, was a wonderful and fun gal) had been a hellraiser until a very serious car accident in which she suffered a head injury. After that she got worse and worse. She refused to let her children watch “Sesame Street” because PBS is part of the Zionist conspiracy. She took me to court during my first divorce claiming I was having African-American men call her and demand to fornicate with her. She wound up with an involuntary committal at a state psych facility.

In all seriousness, their is a possibility of temporal lobe epilepsy or something going on here. Or just a garden variety mental illness. My sister-in-law got worse in the four years I was around, so be very careful. She started out seeming normal but simply enthusiastic to us. Then she started hanging out with some Protestant ringleader who was grilling people about their OB/gyns to see if they were doing abortions and performing exorcisms. A group of them came to our house when I was alone once to “lay hands” on me! Ah, the joys of living in the South…

I wish I had advice, but it sounds covered here by these guys. Keep us updated and hang in there! :hug1: