Vestment Colors

[jpjd]

poster was just giving an example of what catalogs of liturgical vestments offer, and why some parishes can be deluded into ordering what is not appropriate for Catholic liturgy.

The thing is, what business does a parish have in ordering vestments for their priest? I would think that choice of vestments to be quite a personal thing for a priest, and it seems very forward for a parish to just order one for a priest, and even worse for a priest to wear it when it is not an appropriate color.

 

[johnnykins]

Was it really blue ? I have heard that Advent purple is a more bluish purple, while Lent purple is more reddish.

The church makes no such distinction. Certain priests and liturgists want to create the impression that there is a difference, but there isn’t any beyond a personal preference. I get a little hot under the collar when I hear that there is some sort of official distinction - I view it as another attempt by certain folks to impose their own ideas on the populace.

A reddish violet is perfectly allowable in Advent or Lent - and likewise a bluish violet. The color is violet and can range from a bluer to redder and be licit. The color can be dark or light as long as it’s violet. However, blue is generally not licit (as noted in several posts above) and red is a different color approved for different times.

 

[Phemie]

The thing is, what business does a parish have in ordering vestments for their priest? I would think that choice of vestments to be quite a personal thing for a priest, and it seems very forward for a parish to just order one for a priest, and even worse for a priest to wear it when it is not an appropriate color.

I’ve been through 5 pastors in the last 12 years and none owned his own vestments, beyond the beaded caribou hide chasuble owned by the last one. Parishes usually purchase a set in all the colours. What they order may well be the preference of the pastor who is there at the time and his successors just have to live with what’s there even though it’s not to their own taste – it’s too expensive to buy vestments every time the pastor is reassigned.

 

[centurionguard]

The thing is, what business does a parish have in ordering vestments for their priest? I would think that choice of vestments to be quite a personal thing for a priest, and it seems very forward for a parish to just order one for a priest, and even worse for a priest to wear it when it is not an appropriate color.

I would tend to agree with your train of thought. There was a time in most parishes that a priest (“Did”) order his own vestments. As a former sacristan for over a decade I’ve witnessed changing times in Parish Management affairs often allocated by lay officials mostly to take some of the burden off a priest duties. Often though as seen today these lay officials meddle their hands in Church affairs that are respectively a priest sole duty that (“some”) priest choose to neglect. Most seasoned priest today if it is within their means will order their own preferred vestments which they own exclusively themselves. Alternately; they may choose to use vestments owned by the parish itself.

 

[malphono]

I’ve been through 5 pastors in the last 12 years and none owned his own vestments, beyond the beaded caribou hide chasuble owned by the last one.

Beaded caribou hide??? In other words, a leather chasuble … I’m sure it looked just dandy, especially if he happened to be wearing soft buskins.

 

[Phemie]

Beaded caribou hide??? In other words, a leather chasuble … I’m sure it looked just dandy, especially if he happened to be wearing soft buskins.

Heavy piece of kit, must weigh at least 15 lbs. It’s features a large eagle completely formed with beads and is trimmed in 6-8" long fringe. Made for him by the community he serves now and worn for weddings and feasts. Matching stole included.

 

[Frosty]

A leather chasuble can be quite beautiful. Pope John Paul II wore one at a Mass he celebrated at Fort Simpson. NWT when he returned to Canada in 1988 to keep a promise he made to the Inuit people of the Northwest Territories. The chasuble was hand made for him and was of the finest caribou skin. I remember watching that Mass on TV and thinking how utterly beautiful the garment was and how appropriate for the occassion.
The picture shows him emerging from the tent that was used as a sacristy. Much better than the ramshacle wooden and metal huts that were the permanent fixtures at the airport where the Mass was held.

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2139/fortsimpsonnwtcanada198ax8.jpg

 

[Phemie]

A leather chasuble can be quite beautiful. Pope John Paul II wore one at a Mass he celebrated at Fort Simpson. NWT when he returned to Canada in 1988 to keep a promise he made to the Inuit people of the Northwest Territories. The chasuble was hand made for him and was of the finest caribou skin. I remember watching that Mass on TV and thinking how utterly beautiful the garment was and how appropriate for the occassion.
The picture shows him emerging from the tent that was used as a sacristy. Much better than the ramshacle wooden and metal huts that were the permanent fixtures at the airport where the Mass was held.

That chasuble is gorgeous, with the leather dyed white. I’ve seen brides, first communicants and confirmands wearing dresses of the same white caribou hide.

The one my former pastor wears is natural, golden brown. The pattern is similar to JPII’s but the beading is much more elaborate, gaudy even.

 

[puzzleannie]

The thing is, what business does a parish have in ordering vestments for their priest? I would think that choice of vestments to be quite a personal thing for a priest, and it seems very forward for a parish to just order one for a priest, and even worse for a priest to wear it when it is not an appropriate color.

well here the principal role of the Altar Society, besides cleaning the Church and preparing for the liturgical seasons and celebrations (decorations, hangings, altar linens etc) is to order vestments when needed, as well as for the altar servers etc., and sacred vessels. the pastor has to approve everything they choose. It took 3 years to come to agreement on some items.

Often a priest has several sets of white vestments, received as gifts, but may not own his own of other colors. Once he is pastor he may want to order his own full set, but if the parish pays, it stays with the parish. If he pays, or gets a gift, they are his own possession. Down here it seems deacons must purchase their own vestments, although some parishes do own sets for them.

 

[FrDavid96]

A leather chasuble can be quite beautiful. Pope John Paul II wore one at a Mass he celebrated at Fort Simpson. NWT when he returned to Canada in 1988 to keep a promise he made to the Inuit people of the Northwest Territories. The chasuble was hand made for him and was of the finest caribou skin. I remember watching that Mass on TV and thinking how utterly beautiful the garment was and how appropriate for the occassion.
The picture shows him emerging from the tent that was used as a sacristy. Much better than the ramshacle wooden and metal huts that were the permanent fixtures at the airport where the Mass was held.

That photo is incredible! Thanks so much for sharing it.

I know it’s not intended this way, but it reminds me of icons of the Resurrection.

 

[SMHW]

The thing is, what business does a parish have in ordering vestments for their priest? I would think that choice of vestments to be quite a personal thing for a priest, and it seems very forward for a parish to just order one for a priest, and even worse for a priest to wear it when it is not an appropriate color.

Since a full set of chasubles (let alone stoles, albs, etc.) is likely to cost several thousand dollars it is often cost prohibitive for a priest to have his own full set. I can’t think of any parishes around here (at least those that have a full time pastor) that do not provide at least one set for priests who preside at liturgies. However deacons provide their own vestments. (Hense, it is rare for dalmatics to be worn.)

Chances are the chasuble is sized for the pastor at the time the chasuble was ordered.

We used to have a retired priest who regularly visited our parish to say Mass. He was so short that most of the chasubles were too long and practically dragged on the floor. I would suppose most priests have their own albs because that garment would almost have to be correctly sized, at least for length.

 

[puzzleannie]

many priests and deacons have albs which are custom tailored because of how they fit. It looks awful on the altar when some celebrants or servers do not wear vestments of the correct length. Cassocks usually have to be taylor made to specific measurements or they just do not fit right. The company sends a guide for taking the measurements. Even a change in weight of 10-15 pounds means the priest has to have new cassocks made.

Here we are fortunate to have Deacon vestments in all 4 colors, donated when our first deacons were ordained, but one is rather tall, and the other was rather short so he seldom wore one.

 

[Padrej]

I hope you don’t mind a protestant putting his two cents worth in on this one.
As a traditionalist as far as vestment colors goes, as well as their styles it pains me to see the traditions of the past go by the wayside. For example. For years the priest would cross his stole over himself in an X while only the bishop wore his down straight the deacon to the side. The stole was NEVER worn over the Chasuble because there were prayers for vesting, the stole was the priest’s yoke of Christ he was putting on, the chasuble the high priestly light of Christ; WHY would you reverse them? Fashion, showed them in catalogs to show the details of the stole that way so it soon became the norm to wear them as an overlay. YUK!
It is believed that blue for advent came out of a faded purple which looked like blue. Funny the same people who balk at the change to blue for advent don’t scream out too much that the priest no longer wears black as the liturgical color for funerals either; there was a time no priest would be caught dead (pardon the pun) doing a funeral in anything but black. Now it tends to be the liturgical color of the season. Brown used to be reserved for Ash Wednesday. OH and let us not forget twice a year there was Rose Sunday, 3rd advent and 4th lent dedicated to the Holy Mother and family. Do we have rose colored vestments anymore???
What about Gold; that was always the alternate color for white, how many priests are decked in gold anymore?
Some traditions die hard and new ones If done with reverence can be quite refreshing.

As to the priests owning their own vestments, I had to buy all of mine, so if a priest comes out with a color you don’t like or he is a wearing flax alb instead of pure white, may I suggest you purchase him one to your liking in his size.

 

[Newbie2]

I went to a funeral mass recently and the priest used all grey vestments, and the deacon wore an alb with a grey dalmatic. The pall covering the casket was grey as well.

I’ve never seen grey used before.

 

[malphono]

In case you haven’t seen it, there recently was another [thread=401759]thread[/thread] about grey vestments.

 

[Newbie2]

Didn’t see it…thanks for the heads up.

Didn’t answer my question, though. And yes, it definitely was grey, not faded silver, not greyish-blue and it was a monsignor and deacon of that parish, not visitors.

I thought the grey funeral pall was particularly odd, for lack of a better term, as the baptismal garment is white and I have always seen a white pall. Grey is not listed as a liturgical color in the GIRM. Could grey have been a holdover from when they were “experimenting” with different liturgical colors (blue)?

 

[Corki]

It is believed that blue for advent came out of a faded purple which looked like blue. Funny the same people who balk at the change to blue for advent don’tblue. scream out too much that the priest no longer wears black as the liturgical color for funerals either; there was a time no priest would be caught dead (pardon the pun) doing a funeral in anything but black. Now it tends to be the liturgical color of the season. Brown used to be reserved for Ash Wednesday. OH and let us not forget twice a year there was Rose Sunday, 3rd advent and 4th lent dedicated to the Holy Mother and family. Do we have rose colored vestments anymore???
What about Gold; that was always the alternate color for white, how many priests are decked in gold anymore?

Just do a search of these forums and you will see many posts about the longing for the “old days” of black vestments for funerals. We had a brief run of the EF Mass at a parish near us and the parish purchased older style vestments. There was a beautiful black chausible that, as far as I know, was worn for a single All Souls Day before the Cardinal shut down the EF.

I have never seen brown but the Rose colored vestments are still very common for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays. My parish has a set of gold vestments (silver is allowed as well) that are worn for major feasts. They are quite beautiful.

 

[andreStefan]

During this season of Advent, you wouldn’t believe the array of vestment, candle, display colors that are supposed to be purple and pink (for candles). Some purple looks blue. The priest and deacon had completely different shades of purple. So, I guess the oldly colored vestment was to be something your eye couldn’t see. Have you ever said “that’s blue,” and someone else says, “no, that’s green.” Who knows what each of our eyes see for color! one of God’s mysteries. I can’t know what you see!

 

[FrDavid96]

Just do a search of these forums and you will see many posts about the longing for the “old days” of black vestments for funerals. We had a brief run of the EF Mass at a parish near us and the parish purchased older style vestments. There was a beautiful black chausible that, as far as I know, was worn for a single All Souls Day before the Cardinal shut down the EF.

I have never seen brown but the Rose colored vestments are still very common for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays. My parish has a set of gold vestments (silver is allowed as well) that are worn for major feasts. They are quite beautiful.

Black is not only the current color for Masses for the Dead, but it always has been. Contrary to what many think, black was never suppressed, and never replaced by white. White is an alternative option to the norm.

I’ve seen a resurgence of black vestments in recent years. For my part, I’ve never worn white at a funeral (not unless I’m concelebrating in a parish other than my own, and the celebrant wears white). I always wore violet until I finally aquired black vestments.

I’ve had nothing but positive feedback on that, by the way.

So those black vestments don’t have to sit in storage.

 

[Bluegoat]

I wonder if grey for a funeral is supposed to be a reference to ashes???

With reference to the pp about gold vestments - my parish’s “white” vestments are gold, and include a full set for the priest, deacon and sub-deacon, as well as the alter hangings and a cope which sees occasional use. In fact, we have full sets for all the colours (although not copes in all colours.) I’m not usually a matchy-matchy person, but if everyone had their own, it seems to me they might clash - there is nothing more distracting to me than colours that don’t quite match, or fabrics of obviously different quality. Of course we make do with what we can afford, but to me it makes more sense for parishes to be doing most of the vestment investment.