Vestments in the Church

[EvangelCatholic]

There’s an interesting thread in the ‘Liturgy’ forum asking the question: “At what point in Church history did priests begin to wear special vestments?”

Maybe this topic could be raised in this forum as it applies to all Christian churches.

Among Lutherans there is a fair amount of latitude on how a pastor vests for Mass but mostly the traditional Catholic vestments. Anglicans seem to have some distinct vestments especially for their bishops. The Orthodox vestments are quite different than those worn in the Western Church.

Does is matter what the priest wears?

 

[Monergistic]

Does is matter what the priest wears?

Not to me it doesn’t. God gave specific clothing instructions to Jewish priests, not to any Christians. Every Christian who wears vestments is engaging in more or less imitation of them (sometimes indirectly) not because they have to, not because God ever told Christians to, and not because any Jewish priest ever said “take it from here,” but because it seems fitting or it feels right. And maybe a little bit out of long-standing habit that became official practice, but back at the source that’s pretty much what it reduces to. 15, 16, 17 centuries of doing something doesn’t change what a practice is built on.

That’s me. What do Lutherans say? Do your priests see themselves as imitators with the vestments? Imitators of imitators? No imitators at all?

 

[pablope]

There’s an interesting thread in the ‘Liturgy’ forum asking the question: “At what point in Church history did priests begin to wear special vestments?”

Maybe this topic could be raised in this forum as it applies to all Christian churches.

Among Lutherans there is a fair amount of latitude on how a pastor vests for Mass but mostly the traditional Catholic vestments. Anglicans seem to have some distinct vestments especially for their bishops. The Orthodox vestments are quite different than those worn in the Western Church.

Does is matter what the priest wears?

The vestments have a purpose and meaning…catholicdoors.com/courses/roman.htm

1. Thus, the priest, vested for mass, is a wonderful witness to the historical continuity of the Catholic Church with the primitive Church of Rome, founded by the Prince of the Apostles.

. THE ALB

The alb is a long, white linen liturgical vestment with tapered sleeves. It is a garment (or robe) that is worn by the priest during the Holy Mass. It symbolizes the innocence and purity that should adorn the soul of the priest who ascends the altar. While it is white in the Western Church, it can be of any color in the Eastern Church.

1. THE CHASUBLE

The chasuble is the vestment that is put on over all the others during Liturgical services. Originally this was a very full garment, shaped like a bell and reaching almost to the feet all the way round. During a bad artistic period, the 18th and 19th century especially, the Chasuble suffered much from a process of shortening a stiffening. Today there is a return to the historical and beautiful, ample, nicely draping Chasubles. The Chasuble symbolizes the virtue of charity, and the yoke of unselfish service for the Lord, which the priest assumes at ordination.

 

[Elizium23]

Ah but God has told Christians what to wear. Through the Holy Tradition of the Church, we are handed down instructions on vestments for sacred ministers. The Church is God’s representative on Earth and the Church is the source of both Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition, collectively the Word of God. So when the Church decrees that something should be done, we can trust that God approves of it. Vestments are a disciplinary sort of thing that can change, not doctrinal, and you can see a wide variety of them in the different Rites, but your denial that God has continued to reveal His will to the world through His Church belies a Protestant view of the Church as merely a product of the Bible or man-made whims of fancy.

 

[EIF5A]

So when the Church decrees that something should be done, we can trust that God approves of it.

Can other Catholics weigh in on this?

Are you saying the Church has never been in error or practiced things in error?

 

[andrewstx]

Not to me it doesn’t. God gave specific clothing instructions to Jewish priests, not to any Christians. Every Christian who wears vestments is engaging in more or less imitation of them (sometimes indirectly) not because they have to, not because God ever told Christians to, and not because any Jewish priest ever said “take it from here,” but because it seems fitting or it feels right. And maybe a little bit out of long-standing habit that became official practice, but back at the source that’s pretty much what it reduces to. 15, 16, 17 centuries of doing something doesn’t change what a practice is built on.

That’s me. What do Lutherans say? Do your priests see themselves as imitators with the vestments? Imitators of imitators? No imitators at all?

Lutherans were not part of the radical reformation and retained much of Catholic ceremonial and ritual, esp in Scandanavia. But I think all Lutherans consider vestments as adiaphora.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Not to me it doesn’t. God gave specific clothing instructions to Jewish priests, not to any Christians. Every Christian who wears vestments is engaging in more or less imitation of them (sometimes indirectly) not because they have to, not because God ever told Christians to, and not because any Jewish priest ever said “take it from here,” but because it seems fitting or it feels right. And maybe a little bit out of long-standing habit that became official practice, but back at the source that’s pretty much what it reduces to. 15, 16, 17 centuries of doing something doesn’t change what a practice is built on.

That’s me. What do Lutherans say? Do your priests see themselves as imitators with the vestments? Imitators of imitators? No imitators at all?

What is quite interesting, as pointed out in the other thread on this subject, is that the vestments of the Western Church were merely the common dress of the Roman Empire. So priests were essentially dressing in the nice clothes of the every day person. When clothing styles changed, the clergy maintained the old attire.

Lutherans are not obligated to wear vestments though it seems universal that they follow the tradition of the Catholic Church.

 

[pablope]

Can other Catholics weigh in on this?

Are you saying the Church has never been in error or practiced things in error?

Sure…I will weigh in on it.

The traditions/practices of the church are the application of Tradition. These practices/traditions stem from how the Tradition is be lived, how the gospel is lived.

Before the Church overall approves practices/traditions, these are weighed in and pondered over before a rule is made on these is made.

But over time, these practices and traditions maybe abused in their use in the local parishes.

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

To begin answering the question, we should begin with ordinary human experience and first ask, what is tradition? Essentially, tradition is a thing handed down from one generation to the next. This is precisely the meaning of the biblical word for tradition: paradosis. Further, we make distinctions between large T and small t traditions even in secular and folk culture. Small t traditions express something of a culture (like turkey at Thanksgiving), yet can be done without and not irreparably damage that heritage (though the deprivation would sting-as every soldier who has had to endure a Thanksgiving turkey loaf with freeze-dried mashed potatoes in a mess tent will tell you). Some small t traditions (like toasting the bride and groom) are very ancient and widely diffused. Some (like Fourth of July fireworks) are fairly new and may be confined to only one culture. Some have religious significance (like Advent candles), some are just ingrained customs (like birthday candles). Human culture is immersed in an ocean of such traditions ranging from throwing wedding rice to saluting the flag to celebrating bachelor parties to gathering around the water cooler on Monday mornings. And, as such, nobody fears this profoundly human thing.

However, tradition is more than the mere cultural window dressing of small t traditions. It isn’t just little customs. It is also a way of being, thinking and seeing which powerfully (and often unconsciously) influences our lives and even our relationship with God. Americans, for example, have a long-standing Tradition of self-governance and a curious distrust of kings and princes which harks back to the Magna Carta and colors our outlook far more deeply than the mere tradition of fireworks on the Fourth of July.

Now this distinction between small t and large T tradition holds true in the realm of the sacred as well, according to Catholic teaching. That is, there are aspects of Christian life which, the Church teaches, are principally handed on to us, not so much through Scripture as through tradition. Some of this tradition, says the Church, is small t stuff: candles, favorite songs, styles of prayer, popular forms of devotion, beloved books, treasured old rituals like Christmas caroling, foods like St. Basil’s bread or Easter eggs, legends like the Little Drummer Boy and a billion other such adornments to the life of faith. All these are expressions of ordinary human culture. Yet, when push comes to shove, none of these small t traditions, vital and living though they are, is essential to the Faith. Rather than the Little Drummer Boy, mom and dad could just as easily have told us the story of the Other Wise Man and not have maimed the Faith thereby.

 

[EIF5A]

Sure…I will weigh in on it.

The traditions/practices of the church are the application of Tradition. These practices/traditions stem from how the Tradition is be lived, how the gospel is lived.

Before the Church overall approves practices/traditions, these are weighed in and pondered over before a rule is made on these is made.

But over time, these practices and traditions maybe abused in their use in the local parishes.

mark-shea.com/tradition.html

To begin answering the question, we should begin with ordinary human experience and first ask, what is tradition? Essentially, tradition is a thing handed down from one generation to the next. This is precisely the meaning of the biblical word for tradition: paradosis. Further, we make distinctions between large T and small t traditions even in secular and folk culture. Small t traditions express something of a culture (like turkey at Thanksgiving), yet can be done without and not irreparably damage that heritage (though the deprivation would sting-as every soldier who has had to endure a Thanksgiving turkey loaf with freeze-dried mashed potatoes in a mess tent will tell you). Some small t traditions (like toasting the bride and groom) are very ancient and widely diffused. Some (like Fourth of July fireworks) are fairly new and may be confined to only one culture. Some have religious significance (like Advent candles), some are just ingrained customs (like birthday candles). Human culture is immersed in an ocean of such traditions ranging from throwing wedding rice to saluting the flag to celebrating bachelor parties to gathering around the water cooler on Monday mornings. And, as such, nobody fears this profoundly human thing.

However, tradition is more than the mere cultural window dressing of small t traditions. It isn’t just little customs. It is also a way of being, thinking and seeing which powerfully (and often unconsciously) influences our lives and even our relationship with God. Americans, for example, have a long-standing Tradition of self-governance and a curious distrust of kings and princes which harks back to the Magna Carta and colors our outlook far more deeply than the mere tradition of fireworks on the Fourth of July.

Now this distinction between small t and large T tradition holds true in the realm of the sacred as well, according to Catholic teaching. That is, there are aspects of Christian life which, the Church teaches, are principally handed on to us, not so much through Scripture as through tradition. Some of this tradition, says the Church, is small t stuff: candles, favorite songs, styles of prayer, popular forms of devotion, beloved books, treasured old rituals like Christmas caroling, foods like St. Basil’s bread or Easter eggs, legends like the Little Drummer Boy and a billion other such adornments to the life of faith. All these are expressions of ordinary human culture. Yet, when push comes to shove, none of these small t traditions, vital and living though they are, is essential to the Faith. Rather than the Little Drummer Boy, mom and dad could just as easily have told us the story of the Other Wise Man and not have maimed the Faith thereby.

I’m not questioning tradition/Tradition. I’m curious as to if Catholics believe the Church can ever practice something in error, since the poster above seems to indicate that whatever the Church does, God approves.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is a ton of symbolism in the vestments of the Orthodox Church. But are they necessary? No. But if a bishop, priest, deacon, subdeacon, servers, etc. can vest, why not? When we do something for God, we should do everything we possibly can for His glory. If we are able to do the full thing, why should we not? I’ve seen mission parishes where they are poor enough that the clergy has one set of vestments year round (no different colors for the different feasts and seasons). Nothing wrong with that. But for grand Cathedrals with good funding, why shouldn’t the bishop and presbyters and deacons and everyone else at the altar be vested fully and properly?

 

[pablope]

I’m not questioning tradition/Tradition. I’m curious as to if Catholics believe the Church can ever practice something in error, since the poster above seems to indicate that whatever the Church does, God approves.

Ok…understood.

If a practice gets approval from the bishop/priest, yes, I would say it is guided by the HS in the decision.

The HS guides the Church, through the Magisterium (pope and bishops)…the Church would not impose something unless it is prayed and meditated and given thoughtful consideration on how it is faith increasing and helps the laity in the growth of their faith.

As I said, the small traditions are applications of Traditions.

But there have been abuses in the application of practices.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I recall as a child that some Lutheran pastors wore birettas especially in the area I was raised in [Queens/ western Long Island]. They were not especially ‘high church’ but the tradition included birettas and copes. Today, one rarely sees a Lutheran pastor wearing a biretta.

Are birettas going out of style among Roman Catholics?

 

[Monergistic]

Ah but God has told Christians what to wear.

I wasn’t aware of any specific claims to that. What is the name of the Christian that God told this to, when did it happen, and where was this Christian at the time when God allegedly told him what the Christian clergy ought to wear?

Did it happen in a vision or a dream? Was this a prophet of some kind? Was it more of a public declaration by God that was seen or heard by more than one person? Describe this to me, please.

 

[Monergistic]

There is a ton of symbolism in the vestments of the Orthodox Church. But are they necessary? No. But if a bishop, priest, deacon, subdeacon, servers, etc. can vest, why not?

I agree, why not. Go ahead, do it. It’s a matter of personal style and preference. Who am I to say it’s wrong, in error, or damaging to anyone? I see no reason to say any of that.

However. Please, please, please don’t come at me with the claim that there’s a divine imperative to dress a certain way unless you can tell me a credible story about when God said do this. And when I say “God said,” I mean tell me about a time when God communicated with humans (specifically Christian humans) and told them this is how it’s going to be with the vestments.

Why would I ask for such a thing? I am following a pattern. Jews tell us a credible story about Moses and the things God specifically said to him. If you’re trying to tell me this is that type of thing, you’re trying to come up with that type of story. Otherwise, it’s not that type of thing and you have a much different origins story.

 

[benjohnson]

However. Please, please, please don’t come at me with the claim that there’s a divine imperative to dress a certain way unless you can tell me a credible story about when God said do this.

Indeed we are cautioned:

James 2:1-26

For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? …

However, there’s indications that priests should have as nice garments as is fitting their reflection of the God’s glory.

Exodus 31:10

“And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest’s office,”

2 Maccabees 3:15

“But the priests, prostrating themselves before the altar in their priests’ vestments, called unto heaven upon him that made a law concerning things given to he kept, that they should safely be preserved for such as had committed them to be kept.”

 

[Monergistic]

However, there’s indications that priests should have as nice garments as is fitting their reflection of the God’s glory.

The church I grew up in, there wasn’t much question about how the senior pastor or any other pastor in the church should dress on a Sunday morning. Dress code for ushers was trickier, though. Ushers were the guys that would pass the collection basket when it was that time, and they’d also do the Communion thing. Some of them were elders or deacons, others were just guys, and sometimes it would be a kid, middle school or high school age. For awhile, they were required to wear ties. And, of course, a collared shirt that goes with a tie and some dress pants. If an exception had to be made for some reason, it was no big deal. Usher busts his toe up and has to wear open toe sandals one day, he’s still good to usher and he isn’t even expected to clear it with anybody. It was the kind of dress code that ushers were asked not to break if it was for no reason at all.

Then a bit later on, the dress code was relaxed. Ties became optional, you’d still need a nice shirt but it didn’t have to be able to go with a tie, and dress pants are preferred but maybe you can get away with jeans on the entirely subjective judgment that they look nice.

Throughout the process, there was an assessment of Scripture, the role and importance of ushers, and the role of this little church’s authority to tell certain people how to dress under specific circumstances. Also, for anyone there who knew the meaning of adiaphora, they knew this was it.

Decisions were made, and some of those decisions were later retracted. People worked together, sometimes disagreeing a little bit, and they reached a decision that we could live with.

No one claimed that God has ever given us a divine imperative either way. God never told us how to decorate, God never said what color to paint the walls, and God has never, ever told any Christian a specific way to dress at any given time.

God allows us to dress ourselves, is what I’m saying. Some people make good decisions, others make questionable ones, and some people just look silly. But at the root of it, the decision is left up to us.

Back in the day when we were trying to decide what the usher dress code would be, how do you think it would have worked out if someone had claimed that they had divine authority behind a particular answer, they just can’t give any specific details about when, where or how God delivered this information? Does that sound credible to you? Do you think that would have united us and put the issue to rest? I seriously doubt it. You come at people with That kind of thing, do not expect to be taken seriously. You come at it as someone who’s taking credit for his own decisions- ah, now we’re getting somewhere.

 

[benjohnson]

Back in the day when we were trying to decide what the usher dress code would be, how do you think it would have worked out if someone had claimed that they had divine authority behind a particular answer, they just can’t give any specific details about when, where or how God delivered this information? Does that sound credible to you? Do you think that would have united us and put the issue to rest? I seriously doubt it. You come at people with That kind of thing, do not expect to be taken seriously. You come at it as someone who’s taking credit for his own decisions- ah, now we’re getting somewhere.

90 times out of a hundred, my family is in our sunday best. But we often go into the woods and need to rush back to our church and we basically look like hobos. Nobody bats an eye - our pastor is happy to see us and gives me a bear-hug even though I’m sure some of the smoke and deet smell gets on his beautiful chasuble.

Our good Catholic friends do have beautiful vestments, but they too understand that the Gospel is more important than clothing. Here’s a photo of the pope in humble clothing out in the rain:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1163724/thumbs/r-POPE-FRANCIS-RAIN-large570.jpg?10

We strive to elevate our church out of common ordinary life - and one of the ways we do that is by ‘polishing’ what is important.

But I can say for certain that our Catholic friends proscriptions for modes of dress are not ‘dogma’ but a way of showing respect for things that are worthy.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The church I grew up in, there wasn’t much question about how the senior pastor or any other pastor in the church should dress on a Sunday morning. Dress code for ushers was trickier, though. Ushers were the guys that would pass the collection basket when it was that time, and they’d also do the Communion thing. Some of them were elders or deacons, others were just guys, and sometimes it would be a kid, middle school or high school age. For awhile, they were required to wear ties. And, of course, a collared shirt that goes with a tie and some dress pants. If an exception had to be made for some reason, it was no big deal. Usher busts his toe up and has to wear open toe sandals one day, he’s still good to usher and he isn’t even expected to clear it with anybody. It was the kind of dress code that ushers were asked not to break if it was for no reason at all.

Then a bit later on, the dress code was relaxed. Ties became optional, you’d still need a nice shirt but it didn’t have to be able to go with a tie, and dress pants are preferred but maybe you can get away with jeans on the entirely subjective judgment that they look nice.

Throughout the process, there was an assessment of Scripture, the role and importance of ushers, and the role of this little church’s authority to tell certain people how to dress under specific circumstances. Also, for anyone there who knew the meaning of adiaphora, they knew this was it.

Decisions were made, and some of those decisions were later retracted. People worked together, sometimes disagreeing a little bit, and they reached a decision that we could live with.

No one claimed that God has ever given us a divine imperative either way. God never told us how to decorate, God never said what color to paint the walls, and God has never, ever told any Christian a specific way to dress at any given time.

God allows us to dress ourselves, is what I’m saying. Some people make good decisions, others make questionable ones, and some people just look silly. But at the root of it, the decision is left up to us.

Back in the day when we were trying to decide what the usher dress code would be, how do you think it would have worked out if someone had claimed that they had divine authority behind a particular answer, they just can’t give any specific details about when, where or how God delivered this information? Does that sound credible to you? Do you think that would have united us and put the issue to rest? I seriously doubt it. You come at people with That kind of thing, do not expect to be taken seriously. You come at it as someone who’s taking credit for his own decisions- ah, now we’re getting somewhere.

How did the pastors dress on Sunday morning? Has that changed through the years?

 

[Monergistic]

How did the pastors dress on Sunday morning? Has that changed through the years?

Not very much, at least not at that church. There was one guy originally from the UP that did a very nice job with relatively cheap suits, I can only describe it as very crisp. Also well-groomed. His wife definitely helped him with that, but it was something that was important to him. At the other end of the spectrum, there was a guy originally from Texas who didn’t feel like it was as important to him, but he would also wear relatively cheap suits and meet a certain standard rather than exceed it. The rest of them have been somewhere in the middle, there’s just the one who sticks out as being extremely on point at all times.

In practice, the dress code for senior pastors is make a cheap suit look like it’s not that cheap, make sure we know you’re trying, and we the people will let you know if there’s a problem. It’s basically like going to a job interview, except the option of having an expensive suit is off the table for the most part. At that church, everyone’s met the criteria, but I’d say there was one who crushed it in a good way and one who met it a little reluctantly.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Not very much, at least not at that church. There was one guy originally from the UP that did a very nice job with relatively cheap suits, I can only describe it as very crisp. Also well-groomed. His wife definitely helped him with that, but it was something that was important to him. At the other end of the spectrum, there was a guy originally from Texas who didn’t feel like it was as important to him, but he would also wear relatively cheap suits and meet a certain standard rather than exceed it. The rest of them have been somewhere in the middle, there’s just the one who sticks out as being extremely on point at all times.

In practice, the dress code for senior pastors is make a cheap suit look like it’s not that cheap, make sure we know you’re trying, and we the people will let you know if there’s a problem. It’s basically like going to a job interview, except the option of having an expensive suit is off the table for the most part. At that church, everyone’s met the criteria, but I’d say there was one who crushed it in a good way and one who met it a little reluctantly.

Your pastors are practicing as the early Church did; wear the finest one can afford. Quite apostolic. Do some clergy wear pulpit gowns or perhaps cassocks?