Vestments in the Church

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Your pastors are practicing as the early Church did; wear the finest one can afford. Quite apostolic. Do some clergy wear pulpit gowns or perhaps cassocks?
No gowns, not unless there’s a graduation involved. And a quick poll of these pastors would show most of them aren’t entirely sure what a cassock is. Personally though- I am known to say some of this stuff looks silly, but I kind of like how cassocks look. Well, some of them, there’s different styles and I’m sure there’s a picture of one on the internet somewhere that does look silly but for the most part I like how those look. That’s not a part of our tradition, though.
 
Be realistic. If a cleric wont wear and academic gown with tie. He surely won’t wear a cassock with Roman Collar.😉

Tell the truth I don’t see the problem with any vestments unless it means the Evangelicals consider Catholics and Orthodox as evil and apostate and want to appear as different as possible.

Maybe Methodists and Presbyterians are not Evangelical, they have no problems with gowns and stoles.
 
I agree, why not. Go ahead, do it. It’s a matter of personal style and preference. Who am I to say it’s wrong, in error, or damaging to anyone? I see no reason to say any of that.

However. Please, please, please don’t come at me with the claim that there’s a divine imperative to dress a certain way unless you can tell me a credible story about when God said do this. And when I say “God said,” I mean tell me about a time when God communicated with humans (specifically Christian humans) and told them this is how it’s going to be with the vestments.

Why would I ask for such a thing? I am following a pattern. Jews tell us a credible story about Moses and the things God specifically said to him. If you’re trying to tell me this is that type of thing, you’re trying to come up with that type of story. Otherwise, it’s not that type of thing and you have a much different origins story.
Sorry, but it is not a manner of personal style or preference. The vestments itself serve as part of our own edification, that we may be made aware of God’s glory through our senses. In this case, through sight. When I said it is not necessary is that Liturgy can still happen if the vestments are not there. But that doesn’t mean we’d do away with it just because we want to. God still wants us to do the most we can given our circumstances for our own good.
 
Sorry, but it is not a manner of personal style or preference. The vestments itself serve as part of our own edification, that we may be made aware of God’s glory through our senses. In this case, through sight. When I said it is not necessary is that Liturgy can still happen if the vestments are not there. But that doesn’t mean we’d do away with it just because we want to. God still wants us to do the most we can given our circumstances for our own good.
Do as you like, do what it is you see value in. That’s why the vestments are what they are in the first place.
 
There is a ton of symbolism in the vestments of the Orthodox Church. But are they necessary? No. But if a bishop, priest, deacon, subdeacon, servers, etc. can vest, why not?
They are not necessary for validity or efficaciousness of the sacraments or liturgy. But they are necessary under the law and the authority of the Church. A priest who fails to vest, or vests incorrectly for a liturgy is guilty of a violation of the law. It must be stressed that this is disciplinary and not doctrinal. The Church is not necessarily infallible in its discipline. But the fact that vestments are stable over long periods of time, with the approval of bishops in communion with the Holy Father, is proof positive that it is a right discipline and not in error.

Here is a Catholic Answers tract explaining the Scriptural underpinnings of vestments.
Catholic Answers:
Part of the problem for Fundamentalists is that vestments set priests apart from the laity. Fundamentalists object to a ministerial priesthood in the Church. They see vestments as a way of expressing a distinction between clergy and laity.

On this they’re right, but there’s nothing wrong with such hierarchical distinctions. The New Testament is full of them (Acts 20:28; Eph 2:20, 4:11; Phil 1:1; 1 Tm 3:1-13; Ti 1:5).

Within Fundamentalism there’s also an unhealthy opposition set up between the spiritual and the material realms. There is an anti-incarnational attitude which views the use of anything material as superstitious. The distaste for vestments is but one example of this.

Fundamentalists who say Catholic priests adopted distinctive dress in the fifth century to put themselves above the laity have got it backwards. Actually, it was the laity who changed their attire, not to distinguish themselves from priests, but to keep up with fashions.

Catholic priests simply retained their manner of liturgical dress. Priestly vestments are no more than stylized secular Roman garments which have accrued symbolic, liturgical significance over the centuries.
As for when God told us to use vestments and whom He spoke to, you will not find dramatic stories like those of Exodus in Holy Tradition, but you will find ample evidence of the Holy Spirit’s movement in the Church, which regards Tradition as the inspired Word of God just as Scripture is. Redemptionis Sacramentum is the newest document which contains specifics about what vestments should be used and when. It is an instruction, in a much dryer tone than the vivid Biblical stories that Fundamentalists know and love, but it is an official Church document and has all the force of liturgical law. In it, you will find citations which mostly refer to the Roman Missal, which is itself part of Tradition, and of course the codification of the perfect prayer of the Mass.
Your pastors are practicing as the early Church did; wear the finest one can afford. Quite apostolic. Do some clergy wear pulpit gowns or perhaps cassocks?
Actually, the Apostolic age is over and long gone. What we have in modern times is Living Tradition and Apostolic Succession, which has handed down the vestments in use by the Western and Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches today. Ecclesial communities which desire to jettison Tradition and return to the Apostolic Age by following the New Testament literally have fallen victim to reconstructionism or primitivism, which are rejected as heresy.
 
Be realistic. If a cleric wont wear and academic gown with tie. He surely won’t wear a cassock with Roman Collar.😉

Tell the truth I don’t see the problem with any vestments unless it means the Evangelicals consider Catholics and Orthodox as evil and apostate and want to appear as different as possible.

Maybe Methodists and Presbyterians are not Evangelical, they have no problems with gowns and stoles.
I hope I’m not misunderstanding you, I will try to respond in a way that makes sense.

The types of pastors I’ve been talking about- they have no problem with gowns on principle; all of them have worn graduation gowns on multiple occasions throughout their academic careers, and they would do it again if they earned some kind of doctorate later in life. And these guys in particular probably have no comment on cassocks because they probably aren’t entirely sure what that is.

Methodists and Presbyterians sure are Evangelical, but there are some Evangelicals who retain the tradition of having some sort of vestment and there are others who don’t even know precisely what they are. As for me, I’m not entirely certain of the stated reason why Methodists or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Anglicans do retain the vestments. I’m not sure if all of them would say the same thing about their appearance and use in ancient Christianity, and I’m not sure if they’d all say the same thing about why they’re doing it now. Evidently, I have spent hundreds of hours talking doctrine with people from these various traditions and I haven’t taken two minutes to ask the basic questions about vestments. Sad thing is, this is probably part of the basic catechesis that gets explained to very small children and I still don’t know.

Now, regarding the Evangelicals who don’t use vestments. They are not trying to be different. They are dressing in the fashion of Americans who live in the 21st century, which means they are dressing in a way that says “This is exactly who I am.” Furthermore, when these pastors are involved in cross-cultural evangelism, missionary work, church-planting in another country, training of people from very different countries and cultures- they are not expected to dress like 21st century Americans. They are expected to dress nicely, but according to their own styles and fashions.

I’ll put it this way. Think of regular people. Guy in a cheap suit, guy in an expensive suit, and then an Amish guy. Who’s being different? The Amish guy can always say his style came first, like that gives it seniority or something. He can also say there’s something wrong with people who automatically think “new is better,” even though that’s not the point at all here. The point is, if you happen to live in 21st century America, anything that qualifies as a style of 21st century America is standard relative to that. 19th century styles of the eastern seaboard at that point in time are different. Older, but different. And styles from European antiquity are also different. Definitely old, but they are different. For those who live in America during the 21st century, dressing to your own identity is not “being different.” These guys are just being who they are. It comes naturally, and it’s actually pretty rare that anyone pushes back angrily against another way of doing it. Sort of like how I do what I do, and I scarcely give any thought at all to how Amish people think I should dress. They’re different, I’m just being normal, and I’m not ever under any pressure to explain myself to an Amish person so why would I even think about it? It’s exactly like that for Evangelical pastors who don’t wear vestments- unless they are converts from Catholicism, that would be a little different. But apart from that, deciding not to wear vestments is exactly like deciding not to dress like an Amish person, and you probably don’t ever have to explain yourself to anyone in either example.
 
21st-century garments are Unbiblical. That should be on the minds of everyone attempting to turn back the clock to the Apostolic Age.
 
They are not necessary for validity or efficaciousness of the sacraments or liturgy. But they are necessary under the law and the authority of the Church. A priest who fails to vest, or vests incorrectly for a liturgy is guilty of a violation of the law. It must be stressed that this is disciplinary and not doctrinal. The Church is not necessarily infallible in its discipline. But the fact that vestments are stable over long periods of time, with the approval of bishops in communion with the Holy Father, is proof positive that it is a right discipline and not in error.
We don’t see it in a legalistic sense. We don’t do things just because “the Church says so”. Certainly there are canons that enforce the practice, but we always look for the reason for the law and not just the law itself.
 
I hope I’m not misunderstanding you, I will try to respond in a way that makes sense.

The types of pastors I’ve been talking about- they have no problem with gowns on principle; all of them have worn graduation gowns on multiple occasions throughout their academic careers, and they would do it again if they earned some kind of doctorate later in life. And these guys in particular probably have no comment on cassocks because they probably aren’t entirely sure what that is.

Methodists and Presbyterians sure are Evangelical, but there are some Evangelicals who retain the tradition of having some sort of vestment and there are others who don’t even know precisely what they are. As for me, I’m not entirely certain of the stated reason why Methodists or Presbyterians or Lutherans or Anglicans do retain the vestments. I’m not sure if all of them would say the same thing about their appearance and use in ancient Christianity, and I’m not sure if they’d all say the same thing about why they’re doing it now. Evidently, I have spent hundreds of hours talking doctrine with people from these various traditions and I haven’t taken two minutes to ask the basic questions about vestments. Sad thing is, this is probably part of the basic catechesis that gets explained to very small children and I still don’t know.

Now, regarding the Evangelicals who don’t use vestments. They are not trying to be different. They are dressing in the fashion of Americans who live in the 21st century, which means they are dressing in a way that says “This is exactly who I am.” Furthermore, when these pastors are involved in cross-cultural evangelism, missionary work, church-planting in another country, training of people from very different countries and cultures- they are not expected to dress like 21st century Americans. They are expected to dress nicely, but according to their own styles and fashions.

I’ll put it this way. Think of regular people. Guy in a cheap suit, guy in an expensive suit, and then an Amish guy. Who’s being different? The Amish guy can always say his style came first, like that gives it seniority or something. He can also say there’s something wrong with people who automatically think “new is better,” even though that’s not the point at all here. The point is, if you happen to live in 21st century America, anything that qualifies as a style of 21st century America is standard relative to that. 19th century styles of the eastern seaboard at that point in time are different. Older, but different. And styles from European antiquity are also different. Definitely old, but they are different. For those who live in America during the 21st century, dressing to your own identity is not “being different.” These guys are just being who they are. It comes naturally, and it’s actually pretty rare that anyone pushes back angrily against another way of doing it. Sort of like how I do what I do, and I scarcely give any thought at all to how Amish people think I should dress. They’re different, I’m just being normal, and I’m not ever under any pressure to explain myself to an Amish person so why would I even think about it? It’s exactly like that for Evangelical pastors who don’t wear vestments- unless they are converts from Catholicism, that would be a little different. But apart from that, deciding not to wear vestments is exactly like deciding not to dress like an Amish person, and you probably don’t ever have to explain yourself to anyone in either example.
Thanks for the thorough explanation.

I ask the question because there is a movement among some Christians to vest in the same way. The alb is worn by some Presbyterian and Methodist clergy instead of the academic gown/ pulpit gown and I saw a photo of a Methodist pastor in a chasuble. The alb, in particular, is becoming a universal vestment among many main line Christian denominations.

I recall as a child serving as a acolyte when our parish pastor was on vacation and a retired pastor was the celebrant. He wore a chasuble. Our pastor wore the usual cassock, surplice and stole and a cope at burials. It seemed only a matter of time before all Lutheran pastors in my area were wearing chasubles. In the 1800’s/ early1900’s American Lutheran clergy went through a period of trying to not look like Roman Catholic priests in order to fit in with other Protestants.
 
We don’t see it in a legalistic sense. We don’t do things just because “the Church says so”. Certainly there are canons that enforce the practice, but we always look for the reason for the law and not just the law itself.
“We” as in whom? You left the Catholic Church.

Of course we look to the reasons. But how far do you think a Catholic (or even an Orthodox) priest would get if he celebrated Liturgy in a business suit - assume an absence of persecution and a sacristy full of vestments - wouldn’t his bishop have something to say about it?
 
“We” as in whom? You left the Catholic Church.

Of course we look to the reasons. But how far do you think a Catholic (or even an Orthodox) priest would get if he celebrated Liturgy in a business suit - assume an absence of persecution and a sacristy full of vestments - wouldn’t his bishop have something to say about it?
Yet it is perfectly alright and expected that a priest say Mass in recreational clothes at youth camps in summer months, for example.
 
Yet it is perfectly alright and expected that a priest say Mass in recreational clothes at youth camps in summer months, for example.
Actually it is illicit by the letter of the law. The “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd may expect it, but if it is encountered by the faithful, they should take steps mentioned in Redemptionis Sacramentum to put an end to the illicit practices.
 
Actually it is illicit by the letter of the law. The “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd may expect it, but if it is encountered by the faithful, they should take steps mentioned in Redemptionis Sacramentum to put an end to the illicit practices.
Do you realize how many casually-dressed Catholic priests lead Mass outdoors at youth gatherings and retreats? A lot. What’s wrong wth just a stole? Most Catholic and Lutheran priests have the stole on.
 
“We” as in whom? You left the Catholic Church.
We the Orthodox.

Sorry, “we” is a bit vague. Should I use “us” instead?

Us Orthodox…

There you go 😉
Of course we look to the reasons. But how far do you think a Catholic (or even an Orthodox) priest would get if he celebrated Liturgy in a business suit - assume an absence of persecution and a sacristy full of vestments - wouldn’t his bishop have something to say about it?
Probably not. The people would have dragged him out of the altar well before the bishop even becomes aware of what happened 😃

Seriously though, in Orthodoxy we are always called to Christian love and charity even in such cases. If a priest has no vestments, then we should understand that there must be a good reason for it. For example, it is a small mission parish and the vestments got stolen the night before. Wouldn’t it be a greater tragedy if the priest doesn’t celebrate the Liturgy with the people there gathered just because the vestments were stolen? Of course the priest cannot refuse to vest just because he feels like it. I’ve seen priests suffer in the summer because they have 3 layers of thick clothing on them during Liturgy. When I speak about omitting vestments, it is always about special cases.
 
They are not necessary for validity or efficaciousness of the sacraments or liturgy. But they are necessary under the law and the authority of the Church. A priest who fails to vest, or vests incorrectly for a liturgy is guilty of a violation of the law. It must be stressed that this is disciplinary and not doctrinal. The Church is not necessarily infallible in its discipline. But the fact that vestments are stable over long periods of time, with the approval of bishops in communion with the Holy Father, is proof positive that it is a right discipline and not in error.

Here is a Catholic Answers tract explaining the Scriptural underpinnings of vestments.

As for when God told us to use vestments and whom He spoke to, you will not find dramatic stories like those of Exodus in Holy Tradition, but you will find ample evidence of the Holy Spirit’s movement in the Church, which regards Tradition as the inspired Word of God just as Scripture is. Redemptionis Sacramentum is the newest document which contains specifics about what vestments should be used and when. It is an instruction, in a much dryer tone than the vivid Biblical stories that Fundamentalists know and love, but it is an official Church document and has all the force of liturgical law. In it, you will find citations which mostly refer to the Roman Missal, which is itself part of Tradition, and of course the codification of the perfect prayer of the Mass.

Actually, the Apostolic age is over and long gone. What we have in modern times is Living Tradition and Apostolic Succession, which has handed down the vestments in use by the Western and Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches today.
I want to thank you for this detailed response- this particular one wasn’t in direct response to one of my posts, but it has helped me to see quite a bit more of where you’re coming from. I’ve been trying to find the right way to respond, and I am going to give it a try here.

What I’ve said to this point- that God told Moses how Jewish priests should dress, exactly what the Temple should look like, all the details about sacrifices and the Ark and so many other things- I’ve contrasted this with the lack of a particular message to a particular Christian in order to argue for divine indifference. God doesn’t have a particular preference for the color you should paint your kitchen, any more than God has a particular preference for the color or design of a Christian place of worship. I argue that God displays indifference toward jean shorts and fishing hats in the same way that He displays indifference toward how Christian clergy ought to dress.

This attitude happens to match my own indifference toward all these things, but my indifference and the indifference of my general tribe of Christians is not the ground on which this argument for indifference is based. It is based on what God has done or not done, and it is based on what can be reasonably expected of God when He is or is not indifferent toward something.

Now, the Catholic Church did not initially care about how priests and/or bishops dressed. Initially, they were indifferent. Then they stopped being indifferent, and pretty much all Christians started to care. A tradition was established, a few of them actually, and it became rather permanent. The people associated with those traditions have cared about their clergy dressing a certain way ever since.

I’m going to argue that it’s possible, even likely, for God to continue being indifferent about something even when all or most of Christianity has decided to care about it very much. I realize this is antithetical to both the Catholic and Orthodox way of thinking, but I do not automatically assume that when the Church cares about something, God also starts caring. If you ask me, it is possible for the Church to be indifferent toward something then establish a solemn and permanent tradition of caring, all while God continues to be quite indifferent as He always was.

Again, I do not look to my own tradition as the ground for this argument, and I suggest that you question whether you really have that good of a reason to look to yours as the sole ground for arguing for or against God’s indifference. At the very least, I’d like for you to ask yourself why I should look to your tradition as if it has some formal equivalence with the mind of God.

Rather, when my judgment (or anyone’s judgment) is based on God’s behavior and the things He has to say for Himself, it is most reasonable to conclude that God displays a divine indifference toward the clothing that Christian clerics choose to wear, whereas some traditions within Christianity may grow (and have grown) to care about it far more than He does.

There is nothing wrong or particularly damaging in caring about this so much. However, I do think it’s false to say that God cares as much as you do, and I also say that if your argument to the contrary consists of “We care, and we really feel like the rules should reflect that God must care in the same way that we do,” this argument is not particularly useful or convincing, especially to an Evangelical like me.

In short, there’s hardly any use arguing for this unless you already think you can gain a convert. It’s not the sort of thing you’re likely to convince someone of if they are outside your particular tradition, because the impressiveness of your own tradition is the sole ground for…well, for itself, and there is no particularly convincing evidence grounded in what God Himself has said or done.
 
I want to thank you for this detailed response- this particular one wasn’t in direct response to one of my posts, but it has helped me to see quite a bit more of where you’re coming from. I’ve been trying to find the right way to respond, and I am going to give it a try here.

What I’ve said to this point- that God told Moses how Jewish priests should dress, exactly what the Temple should look like, all the details about sacrifices and the Ark and so many other things- I’ve contrasted this with the lack of a particular message to a particular Christian in order to argue for divine indifference. God doesn’t have a particular preference for the color you should paint your kitchen, any more than God has a particular preference for the color or design of a Christian place of worship. I argue that God displays indifference toward jean shorts and fishing hats in the same way that He displays indifference toward how Christian clergy ought to dress.

This attitude happens to match my own indifference toward all these things, but my indifference and the indifference of my general tribe of Christians is not the ground on which this argument for indifference is based. It is based on what God has done or not done, and it is based on what can be reasonably expected of God when He is or is not indifferent toward something.

Now, the Catholic Church did not initially care about how priests and/or bishops dressed. Initially, they were indifferent. Then they stopped being indifferent, and pretty much all Christians started to care. A tradition was established, a few of them actually, and it became rather permanent. The people associated with those traditions have cared about their clergy dressing a certain way ever since.

I’m going to argue that it’s possible, even likely, for God to continue being indifferent about something even when all or most of Christianity has decided to care about it very much. I realize this is antithetical to both the Catholic and Orthodox way of thinking, but I do not automatically assume that when the Church cares about something, God also starts caring. If you ask me, it is possible for the Church to be indifferent toward something then establish a solemn and permanent tradition of caring, all while God continues to be quite indifferent as He always was.

Again, I do not look to my own tradition as the ground for this argument, and I suggest that you question whether you really have that good of a reason to look to yours as the sole ground for arguing for or against God’s indifference. At the very least, I’d like for you to ask yourself why I should look to your tradition as if it has some formal equivalence with the mind of God.

Rather, when my judgment (or anyone’s judgment) is based on God’s behavior and the things He has to say for Himself, it is most reasonable to conclude that God displays a divine indifference toward the clothing that Christian clerics choose to wear, whereas some traditions within Christianity may grow (and have grown) to care about it far more than He does.

There is nothing wrong or particularly damaging in caring about this so much. However, I do think it’s false to say that God cares as much as you do, and I also say that if your argument to the contrary consists of “We care, and we really feel like the rules should reflect that God must care in the same way that we do,” this argument is not particularly useful or convincing, especially to an Evangelical like me.

In short, there’s hardly any use arguing for this unless you already think you can gain a convert. It’s not the sort of thing you’re likely to convince someone of if they are outside your particular tradition, because the impressiveness of your own tradition is the sole ground for…well, for itself, and there is no particularly convincing evidence grounded in what God Himself has said or done.
Jesus Christ was a carpenter not a tailor I believe you are trying to say to the Catholics, and the reply by the Catholic is Jesus Christ was a carpenter not a tailor. I am fairly sure that it was not a one piece synthetic suit with built in tie that was drawn lots for. In Revelation there are white robes of righteousness. I believe that is at least where the Alb came from.
 
Jesus Christ was a carpenter not a tailor I believe you are trying to say to the Catholics, and the reply by the Catholic is Jesus Christ was a carpenter not a tailor. I am fairly sure that it was not a one piece synthetic suit with built in tie that was drawn lots for. In Revelation there are white robes of righteousness. I believe that is at least where the Alb came from.
Jesus Christ did wear clothes from the century in which He lived, and since I am not a primitivist of some kind nor am I affiliated with Messianic Judaism, so do I- not exactly in imitation of Jesus, but because that’s normal and to be generally expected of people who do what comes naturally.
 
Disclaimer: This is not Catholic Teaching.

The way I like to see it is that the Vestments are a uniform. Uniforms have a purpose. That purpose is to identify those who represent the company, agency, etc.

I like to see our wonderful Catholic Vestments as the army of the Lord on earth (Sorry can’t help, I am a blue blood :)).

We have been, we are and we will be involved in spiritual warfare. Don’t wear the uniform, unless you are ready to take up your cross and face the music and join Christ’s Corps :D.

That’s it.

Peace be with people of good will!
 
Jesus Christ did wear clothes from the century in which He lived, and since I am not a primitivist of some kind nor am I affiliated with Messianic Judaism, so do I- not exactly in imitation of Jesus, but because that’s normal and to be generally expected of people who do what comes naturally.
This isn’t directly related, but rather than wearing a suit in order to indicate His teaching position as Rabbi, Jesus very likely wore a turban.
 
This isn’t directly related, but rather than wearing a suit in order to indicate His teaching position as Rabbi, Jesus very likely wore a turban.
Does anyone know of a religious painting of Christ in a turban? That would be great :cool:
 
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