Viet Nam.. What is your opinion?

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This book review mentions the restrictive nature of the Rules of Engagement but has some other interesting things about the Tet Offensive:
How could you post so much and say so little? Consider my question, it wasn’t ‘are there angry and frustrated vets?’ It was, how exactly would alterations in combat engagment alter the outcome?

I can’t help but wonder if you are actually reading all you are posting, are you really arguing that we lost because of an insufficent amount of indiscriminate killing in the middle of a civil war?

Even as a hypothesis, it seems pretty silly to me. Consider Iraq and Afghanistan. The current administration has, quite literally, abandoned the constaints of not only the military field manuals and codes of conduct, but even the Geneva Conventions. From a Catholic perspective, the ramifations are clear, systemic torture of detainees and the indiscrimate killing of civilians renders a conflict unjust, regardless of rather the critera in CCC2309 are met or not (CCC 2313, etc. are not conditional and not per the judgement of individual authority, on this even Weigel agrees).

But how about from a strategic perspective? Both the military and the state department agree that such tactics have served as an important recruitment factor for all the insurgent factions, including Islamic Extremists. It has also created an environment where the primary strategic goal of the wars primary proponents - namely permanent US military presence, is unpallatable to the general population.

So we have a situation where you are claiming that if we had only been able the “shoot first and act questions later” we would have “won” Vietnam, but we have a situation today where it is perfectly acceptable to beat a middle aged man to death in a sleeping bag, or torture/crucify someone in response the scarcest of hearsay evidence without repurcussion - to no avail.

That would seem to suggest that the primary problem is not that we do not foresake Christ enough in our conduct, but that too many people are incapable of learning from dire mistakes as long as they, themselves, are not the ones getting burned by the stove.

In that light, it is no surprise that the same folks who cannot win a war, even when they take the country to the :“dark side” (Cheney’s own words) with regards to torture homicide were all, themselves, a bunch of chickenhawks during Vietnam. As I’ve said before, the gutless always have grand ideas about other people’s blood and treasure.
 
ezinearticles.com/?The-War-on-Terror-Political-Correctness-Gone-Mad&id=596968

But rules are rules and we assaulted the old way, pretending we didn’t have superior fire power, and the result … four killed and thirty-six wounded. All self inflicted wounded because of our own rules of engagement. But I am proud to say we didn’t damage that old, dilapidated building.

The current Marine sniper ‘rules of engagement’ in Iraq is a booklet twenty-eight pages long. That’s a short story. In Iraq the number of Marine snipers killed is approaching thirty. In Vietnam where I was a Marine sniper for two consecutive years, in all the years over there we didn’t have half that number. Our leaders would say “it’s a different kind of war”. It is different, political correctness has gone mad.

books.google.com/books?id=sXmyHV-OM4oC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=rules+of+engagement+vietnam+war&source=web&ots=1Xo1-CoprS&sig=zX7s8f3XCvXEvYrZSBuVPftUmcc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

Read Chapter 2; starting on page 15.

accesshistory.com/vw__usaf.html

ACES AND AERIAL VICTORIES, 1965-1973.

Aces and Aerial Victories is a collection of firsthand accounts by Air Force fighter crews who flew combat missions over North Vietnam between 1965 and 1973. They recall their air battles with MIG fighters, the difficult and dangerous tactical maneuvers they had to perform to survive, and their victories and defeats. The narratives are taken directly from aircrew after-action reports. A number of direct quotations have been altered, but only to clarify for the reader the very specialized language of their profession (e.g., code words).

“During the war in Southeast Asia, U.S. Air Force fighter pilots and crewmen were repeatedly challenged by enemy MIG’s in the skies over North Vietnam. The air battles which ensued were unique in American history because U.S. fighter and strike forces operated under stringent rules of engagement. With periodic exceptions, for example, MIG bases could not be struck. The rules generally forbade bombing or strafing of military and industrial targets in and around the enemy’s heartland, encompassing the capital of Hanoi and the port city of Haiphong. These restrictions gave the North Vietnamese substantial military advantage. Free from American attack and helped by its Soviet and Chinese allies, the enemy was able to construct one of the most formidable anti-aircraft defenses the world has even seen. It included MIG forces, surface-to-air missile (SAM) batteries, heavy concentrations of antiaircraft artillery (AAA) units, and an array of early warning radar systems. These elements sought to interdict and defeat the U.S. bombing campaign against North Vietnam’s lines of communication and its military and industrial base. The primary mission of U.S. fighter pilots was to prevent the North Vietnamese MIG’s from interfering with U.S. strike operations. This book tells how American airmen-assisted by an armada of other USAF aircraft whose crews refueled their planes, warned of approaching enemy MIG’s and SAM’S, and flew rescue missions when they were shot down, managed to emerge from their aerial battles with both victories and honor.” - JOHN W. HUSTON, Major General, USAF Office of Air Force History
 
I’m going to close with this one last link:

hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM

STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE

Chapter 6

Statistics Of
Vietnamese Democide
Estimates, Calculations, And Sources*

By R.J. Rummel

“With these checks completed, I can pull together the various sub-totals and totals and present them in a summary fashion (lines 823 to 838). In total 3,760,000 Vietnamese probably died of political violence during over forty-two years (line 831). Some 1,250,000, or over 33 percent of them were murdered. This does not count Laotians and Cambodians killed by Vietnamese governments, virtually all by Hanoi. When these are added and those Vietnamese killed by foreigners subtracted, the total democide by Vietnamese is 1,760,000 people (line 838).”

Had the United States fought better, smarter, less politically correctly, many of these deaths could have been prevented.

The entire next twenty-year period would have been radically different. The Communists would have been denied their subsequent victories during the Carter administration.

We need to learn from our failures and not make the same mistakes again.

This thread is about Vietnam.

But some folks (certainly not the bureaucrats in their cozy cubicles) did learn some lessons and did apply them.
 
Applied lessons from Vietnam:

Jawbreaker: The Attack on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda: A Personal Account by the CIA’s Key Field Commander (Hardcover)
by Gary Berntsen, Ralph Pezzullo (Author)

amazon.com/gp/product/0307237400/ref=cm_rdp_product

Get this book!

Berntsen provides not only an exciting story (must-read, page-turner) as well as a lesson on how to operate in the field. Berntsen was THE field commander who ran the most effective campaign in U.S. history. It was quick and it was fast and it was also, by the way, economical. Berntsen and his team was outnumbered by 1,000 to 1. And yet they were able to improvise and to apply the resources at hand and prevail over an enemy that was sworn to kill as many Americans as possible … and did exactly that on several occasions (the embassy bombings, the Cole, and finally on 9/11 with the killing of 3,000 Americans at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon). The enemy had planned and practiced and they had defeated the Russians and before them the British. Yet Berntsen describes in detail how “IN LESS THAN TWO MONTHS [my emphasis], approximately 110 Agency officers and 350 SF soldiers on the ground with seventy million dollars and the support of U.S. airpower and the help of our Afghan allies” had done what no one else had ever been able to do.

You feel Berntsen’s frustrations when time and again bureaucrats back in the U.S. sabotaged the campaign with their need to “be the boss” even though they ignored the accurate information they were receiving and bitterly resented the successes by people who were actually in contact with the enemy.

The bureaucrats’ mantra seemed to be: “Well, just because field operators ask for something, doesn’t mean we have to give it to them.”

You can see how Berntsen applies some basic principles: thoughtful audacity; speed of action; preparation for action and then rapid improvisation when actual real-life events intrude and conditions change; recognition of when change actually occurs.

Please get this book! This is a vital book if you are merely interested or, especially, if you have a family member in the military or working in any of the Homeland Security-related fields. Give this book as a gift to a son or daughter; this is history in the making.

We need to learn from Gary Berntsen. He lays out some very important lessons that you can actually experience through his eyes.

The bureaucrats at the CIA hate this book. It exposes them for what they are!! They are jealous and envious and are willing to sabotage our own safety for their own personal career ambitions. Even though four years have elapsed, the bureaucrats are still running things – Berntsen describes how they let Osama Bin Laden escape and … we still haven’t caught him…

Get this book!! It is important that you read it quickly and pass it and its vital points to others who will continue the fight against the terrorists and against the bureaucrats.
 
In that light, it is no surprise that the same folks who cannot win a war, even when they take the country to the :“dark side” (Cheney’s own words) with regards to torture homicide were all, themselves, a bunch of chickenhawks during Vietnam. As I’ve said before, the gutless always have grand ideas about other people’s blood and treasure.
SoCalRC,

Here’s some news for you.
WASHINGTON - The United States today announced that is was immediately ceasing all military operations around the world. The Bush administration said that this included pulling out of Iraq as well as Afghanistan. Today’s announcement produced fear and chaos with world markets taking a plunge.
This, of course, would never happen even in the name of peace. I am curious though what you propose we do to regain the moral high ground if we have lost it? Would you pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan? How would you alter our policy in general?
 
Was it right for US to invade Vietnam in the first place? Had this violated any of the 10 Commandments?
We didn’t invade. We were asked in by the government of South Viet Nam, and we came after the French, who had been there for a long, long time (where do you think Michelin got the rubber for their tires?), ended up losing their fannies.

And as to the 10 commandments,. there is no commandment that absolutely prohibits killing; it prohibits killing the innocent intentionally. It does not prohibit war per se.
 
But rules are rules and we…

With periodic exceptions, for example, MIG bases could not be struck. The rules generally forbade bombing or strafing of military and industrial targets in and around the enemy’s heartland,
It is probably worth noting that Al is mixing together a number of myths and theories. But they really aren’t that complex when you cut through all the noise.

The first thing to understand is the the basic rules of engagment that we operated under where the “Rules of Land Warfare” from the 1949 Geneva Convention. Yes, the rules of 1949 did not exist during WW-II, but don’t let the date fool you, the fourth convention (in 1949) dealt with the treatment of prisoners and the protection of civilians. The bulk of the provisions come from 1907 (Hague) and 1929 (third Geneva). Most the revisions were due to the abuses by Japan and Germany, and much of the language was modeled after the US military code of conduct.

So, the rules on the field of battle were essentially same for those of us in Vietnam as for our fathers in WW-II. In fact, the revisions in international law were primarily due to abuses that our fathers had suffered.

The other “Rules” his is referring to are operational constraints. These stemmed from two basic sources. First, whatever the reality, we maintained the official stance that we were aiding a legitimate soverign government, not directly waging war. So some operational constraints were created to keep the government in the south politically propped up.

The other constraints were concious limits on escallation. For better or worse, it was seen as one matter to muck in a nasty civil war, and another matter entirely to directly militarily engage China or the Soviet Union.

It is not at all unreasonable to look at some of these constraints and wonder, ‘how could any meaningful strategic or political goals be achieved?’ But that only suggests that we were in a no one situation. What I keep asking Al, and what he misses, is which rules would he have changed, and how?

Think about it a minute, if we stop belly aching about the “rules” and frame the statements in the alternatives:

‘We would have won if we had been free to kill and terrorize civilians and brutally mistreat prisoners…’

‘We would have won if we had not bothered to keep the government propped up during the conflict…’

‘We would have won if we had stopped ‘pussyfooted’ around in a civil war in Asia and gone ahead and started WW-III with China and the Soviet Union…’

I’m sure each of these statements has its fans, but all of them would give most rational people pause, both on moral and strategic grounds.
 
In the United States, we have the freedom to worship as we choose without govt. control or persecution. Under communism, people may have the freedom to worship, but it is controlled and often persecuted by the govt. Right or wrong, that’s one of the things were were fighting against.

state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71363.htm
I understand what you mean I think…

and to give your case some credit there could be suggested perhaps that in other communist countries (eg. Mao’s China) there had been some very serious persecutions of christians, and one may have thought the same could have happened in Viet Nam…

although I’m not sure if it ever really did, what you quote I think is a mild prescription on paper…although admittedly we don’t know how it looks like in practice…

Even still though… what I mean is that even if what they were fighting for could have theoretically benefitted christians, the reason why they fought was not to aid the faith or serve Christ.

No official in the United States government, no general, no ambassador, no official whatsoever am I aware of is on record as ever having stated that the reason why they wanted freedom of religion in Viet Nam was in order so that the Vietnamese people could freely embrace Jesus Christ… rather I think what we will find if we look is that they wanted this as a solemn principle in itself, that is to say, they wanted freedom of religion (among all the other individual rights) because this freedom was something solemn in itself, and not because there was necessarily any offical spoken thought that these people should be christians on that account

And that’s exactly it… I don’t disagree that there was incredible evil present in the communist world, but the evil was not a matter of lack of western liberal democracy, it was something much deeper that had to do with the satanic atheism which adopted marxism as its vehicle to conquer the world, but it was not marxism that this red dragon adopted that was really the problem, nor was it a lack of western democratic institutions, but it had to do with a refusal to accept the only Son of God Whom they were nailing to the cross in those camps in Siberia, and there is no serious political actor on this side of the fence that ever in truth stated that the reason they were fighting against the Soviet Union, its allies and Communism, was in order to make the world more christian. They simply said they wanted the world to be more ‘free’… but not by Jesus Christ…and without this their war is simply their own ideological struggle.
 
Al Masetti,

I hope you aren’t trying to jusfify killing insurgents who have surrendered on the chance that they may be suicide bombers.
 
This, of course, would never happen even in the name of peace. I am curious though what you propose we do to regain the moral high ground if we have lost it? Would you pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan? How would you alter our policy in general?
Of course we have lost the moral high ground. It is silly to even pretend otherwise. At best we engaged in a ‘preventive war’, which is still in violation of international law.

We really have only a few choices left in Iraq. We could abandon any pretense of a nation building exercise and simply declare we are taking the oil. But we would lose. No western country is going to successfully empirialize a nation in the center of Islam, and the US is not prepared to spend the blood and treasure it would take to even try.

Right now, today, permanent military presence is off the table with the Iraqi’s. So if we keep insisting, we will lose any pretense of legitimacy for our presense at the end of this year. So, what we should be doing is drawing down as fast as the current Iraqi government, such as it is, will agree to.

However, we still need to bite the bullet and make some massive humanitarian investments, this time without the same strings as the last $30-40B. We basically structured our previous expenditures for war profiteering. This time, we need to let all the corruption (and it will be there) flow around Iraq. In this, we could take a lesson from Iran. We tend to focus on a big stick, and only tiny carrots after many hoops. Iran spreads it’s aide around, largely without strings. In other words, we tend to focus on a particular faction and end up with a lot of enemies and a few fair weather friends. Iran plays virtually all Shia sides.

The reason we want to get out of Iraq ASAP is really two fold - better to be the guest people are begging to stay than the one everyone loves to complain isn’t leaving. And, more importantly, we have to get into a strategic position were we are not ‘operationally constrained’ with regards to fighting Islamic Extremism. Think about it, we know where the Taliban is flourishing, but we don’t have the resources to either secure Afghanistan or rebuild it because we are stretched beyond thin in Iraq. Similiarly, we know were OBL is, but we can’t do anything about that because we need to stay in bed with Pakistan to effectively stay in Iraq.

Afghanistan, and safe harbor for terrorists in Pakistan, are problems we have to deal with. Iraq has made that much, much more difficult. Remember, after 9/11 we not only had our traditional allies ready to help us, but very unconventional ones, like Syria (who had long been worried about AQ) as well - even Iran provided us with assistance regarding Afghanistan. We can’t turn back the clock. For better or worse, the silly PNAC wet dream is part of US history. But we can change our strategic position so that we are talking about ‘difficult’, not ‘impossible’.

I don’t know about you, but it bothers me that we have placed ourselves in a strategic situation were our military is at its lowest state of readiness in my lifetime, we’ve doubled our debt for our children, and the folks behind 9/11, like OBL and the Taliban, are largely operating with impunity - especially since we are indirectly paying with it through absurdly high oil prices to the Sauds (from whom terrorism money still pretty freely flows)!

If you wanted to spend $2.5B a week on US national security effectively, you would spend it on getting us off oil. Don’t let the noise about ‘if we only drilled…’ fool you. It takes a decade for exploration to pay off in actual oil, and drilling the @#$% out of our coasts and the arctic will basically be the difference in how much the Sauds are intentionally restricting their ‘tap’ now.

Addressing energy impacts our security in so many ways it is hard to count. Taking us out of the unholy alliance with Saud and the Wahab-types is just a start. We’ve lost 20% of our manufacturing jobs since 2000. How are you going to be secure if you are a nation of unemployed consumers? Look at the world food shortage and the relationship to energy. How are you going to be secure if you are hungry?

Really, my thinking isn’t all that different from the PNAC clowns. The difference is that they focus on using military might to secure a big chunk of the oil that’s left. Unfortunatley, their plan isn’t working, it is actually destabilizing energy cost and long term accessibility. My thinking could also be faulty, but I’d invest in US enginuity and productivity instead of military imperialism. Rather it is coal, new light reactors, or something else, I think that the energy is there, and whoever unleashes it is going to be the economic powerhouse for this century - without unavoidable ties to the most volatile region in the world.
 
Communism is an economic system.
If that were all it was… i might not have a problem with it… but Communists want to take God out of the “economic system”… Of course some capitalist do that as well, it would seem… but at least in our capitalistic socieyt, we are free to practice whatever religion we want… & we are free to make money or not make money… get rich or not… In Communist countries, only the rulers are wealthy…
 
The Vietnam and Iraq wars were aggressive attacks against practically defenseless peoples–both very much “David vs. Goliath” scenarios.
And pigs fly. Tell that with a straight face to the 50,000+ families who lost someone to the “practically defenseless” peoples of Viet Nam; tell it to the Viet Namese who lost family members to the cadre who came into the villages and executed the village leader, the teachers, and anyone else who had or exercised any authority; tell it to the wounded veterans; in fact, tell it to those of us who are veterans and not wounded - but lost friends and relatives.

Practically defenseless people don’t have SAM missle sites, 130 mm cannon, AK47s, RPGs, bangalor torpedoes - want me to continue?

OK, their tank corp was practially worthless; the excuse they had for a tank couldn’t stand up to the Sherman we had.

Practically defenselss? As someone who was at Khe Sanh when it was overrun.
 
Rules of engagement!!

Also known as pulling one’s punches.

We wasted a lot of our resources and the lives of our soldiers and wasted a tremendous amount of time by pussyfooting around instead of simply killing the enemy.

We didn’t have rules of engagement in WW2.
yeah, that was my… admittedly somewhat un-educated… opinion…
 
Of course we have lost the moral high ground. It is silly to even pretend otherwise. At best we engaged in a ‘preventive war’, which is still in violation of international law.

We really have only a few choices left in Iraq. We could abandon any pretense of a nation building exercise and simply declare we are taking the oil. But we would lose. No western country is going to successfully empirialize a nation in the center of Islam, and the US is not prepared to spend the blood and treasure it would take to even try.

Right now, today, permanent military presence is off the table with the Iraqi’s. So if we keep insisting, we will lose any pretense of legitimacy for our presense at the end of this year. So, what we should be doing is drawing down as fast as the current Iraqi government, such as it is, will agree to.

However, we still need to bite the bullet and make some massive humanitarian investments, this time without the same strings as the last $30-40B. We basically structured our previous expenditures for war profiteering. This time, we need to let all the corruption (and it will be there) flow around Iraq. In this, we could take a lesson from Iran. We tend to focus on a big stick, and only tiny carrots after many hoops. Iran spreads it’s aide around, largely without strings. In other words, we tend to focus on a particular faction and end up with a lot of enemies and a few fair weather friends. Iran plays virtually all Shia sides.

The reason we want to get out of Iraq ASAP is really two fold - better to be the guest people are begging to stay than the one everyone loves to complain isn’t leaving. And, more importantly, we have to get into a strategic position were we are not ‘operationally constrained’ with regards to fighting Islamic Extremism. Think about it, we know where the Taliban is flourishing, but we don’t have the resources to either secure Afghanistan or rebuild it because we are stretched beyond thin in Iraq. Similiarly, we know were OBL is, but we can’t do anything about that because we need to stay in bed with Pakistan to effectively stay in Iraq.

Afghanistan, and safe harbor for terrorists in Pakistan, are problems we have to deal with. Iraq has made that much, much more difficult. Remember, after 9/11 we not only had our traditional allies ready to help us, but very unconventional ones, like Syria (who had long been worried about AQ) as well - even Iran provided us with assistance regarding Afghanistan. We can’t turn back the clock. For better or worse, the silly PNAC wet dream is part of US history. But we can change our strategic position so that we are talking about ‘difficult’, not ‘impossible’.

I don’t know about you, but it bothers me that we have placed ourselves in a strategic situation were our military is at its lowest state of readiness in my lifetime, we’ve doubled our debt for our children, and the folks behind 9/11, like OBL and the Taliban, are largely operating with impunity - especially since we are indirectly paying with it through absurdly high oil prices to the Sauds (from whom terrorism money still pretty freely flows)!

If you wanted to spend $2.5B a week on US national security effectively, you would spend it on getting us off oil. Don’t let the noise about ‘if we only drilled…’ fool you. It takes a decade for exploration to pay off in actual oil, and drilling the @#$% out of our coasts and the arctic will basically be the difference in how much the Sauds are intentionally restricting their ‘tap’ now.

Addressing energy impacts our security in so many ways it is hard to count. Taking us out of the unholy alliance with Saud and the Wahab-types is just a start. We’ve lost 20% of our manufacturing jobs since 2000. How are you going to be secure if you are a nation of unemployed consumers? Look at the world food shortage and the relationship to energy. How are you going to be secure if you are hungry?

Really, my thinking isn’t all that different from the PNAC clowns. The difference is that they focus on using military might to secure a big chunk of the oil that’s left. Unfortunatley, their plan isn’t working, it is actually destabilizing energy cost and long term accessibility. My thinking could also be faulty, but I’d invest in US enginuity and productivity instead of military imperialism. Rather it is coal, new light reactors, or something else, I think that the energy is there, and whoever unleashes it is going to be the economic powerhouse for this century - without unavoidable ties to the most volatile region in the world.
This is such a good post and I had to highlight the simple truths that are somehow so invisible to so many.

For those who don’t know, PNAC is short for Project for a New American Century. I belief this group was formed in the 90’s and included such men as Paul Wolfowitz, **** Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld. PNAC
 
If that were all it was… i might not have a problem with it… but Communists want to take God out of the “economic system”… Of course some capitalist do that as well, it would seem… but at least in our capitalistic socieyt, we are free to practice whatever religion we want… & we are free to make money or not make money… get rich or not… In Communist countries, only the rulers are wealthy…
There have been many propertyless societies (ie. communisms) that have existed in history that did not try to force people away from God… consider Incan Peru, native American societies, or even some of the fringe christian denominations that hold communal ownership in their communities (eg. the hutterites)… in itself communism, that is the abolition of private property, has nothing necessarily to do with atheism.

You are correct that many of the leaders who held communist ideas in the 20th century also actively persecuted the church and wanted to replace religion… and not everyone who took Marx’s ideas to heart, also followed his opinions about religion, we’ve already mentioned marxist christians in the devoloping world

As an analogy I could make, modern democracy as it first sprung out in the United States a few centuries ago, was very much interlinked with strong traditions of white supremacy and racism towards Africans and Amerindians. In the remainder of this hemisphere, where similar revolutions occurred against Spanish rule or that of other powers, and other countries took this same type of new government being modelled in the United States likewise often held strong traditions of racism that were bound within the system. No one therefore suggests though, that democracy must then be a racist form of political system or that racism is part and parcel of democracy, even if for much of its existence in the past few centuries it was always bound together with a strong tradition of racism, and racial discrimination, because we know that democracy can exist without such and there are many people who hold democratic ideals that are not themselves party to such racial ideas. Likewise communism, which is the abolition of privately-owned capital, while bound together with much atheism in its history is not a necessarily atheist concept.

The British empire operated controls on religion as well… in Canada in World War I for example, the government kept an eye and curtailed the activies of certain religious groups that were agitating support for enemy nations…they probably went a little too far as well… but I don’t see why this would then justify a fullscale invasion and a re-making of the political order according to the American democratic ideal because they have restricted freedom of worship. Many western democratic countries will curtail religious practices today on account of their own security or even their own cultural atmosphere; consider France and the head scarf ban. Should France be invaded and be forced to undergo regime change? What makes these countries different from the Soviet Union, is that the USSR was a regime run by atheists who often saw religion as an enemy, while these countries that also have such laws restricting freedom of worship are not actually trying to stop people from believing in God.

The problem with these countries, which you agree with me, is then in fact militant atheism, and not simply the economic system or communism, which you may have no problem with on its own.
 
Having been there and almost killed I can say a few things. War kills! I killed 54 enemy they shot me and attempted to kill me. That is what WAR is all about. Killing is not a sin, muder is a sin. The reason for the war was not for the soldier to judge, ours was to do or die! May God have mercy on the souls of all my friends that died and all the enemy that we killed.God Bless America, land of the free.
 
yeah, that was my… admittedly somewhat un-educated… opinion…
So what would you have changed to ‘win’?
  1. Killling and brutalizing more civilians and prisoners than permitted under the Geneva Convetions
  2. Abandoned any pretense of aiding a legitimate soverign authority?
  3. Openly started WW-III with China and/or the Soviet Union
  4. Some combination of the above
I hear the stuff you and Al are pedalling a lot, but no one seems to want to address why there were constraints at the time. Frankly, even with 20/20 hindsight, stuff like “We don’t want to be Japan in China, or Nazis” and “Open war with the another nuclear super power, especially one with the world’s largest standing army is dangerous” still make sense to me. But then again, not getting blown to smithereens in some rice pad kept me a little busy to do a lot of deep thinking at the time and may have colored my thinking since…
 
This is such a good post and I had to highlight the simple truths that are somehow so invisible to so many.

For those who don’t know, PNAC is short for Project for a New American Century. I belief this group was formed in the 90’s and included such men as Paul Wolfowitz, **** Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld. PNAC
Check out the following report by these genius leaders of ours:

scribd.com/doc/85954/Rebuilding-Americas-Defenses

Reading through sections of this report is quite troubling. These men are statist extremists. They want to rule the world with a big stick at all costs. What is amazing, is that while they were complaining that the US was neglecting its defense responsiblities, we were outspending the whole world on our military. The fact that this is a peace-time document is just disgusting. What’s worse, only one of the three men I mentioned was in the military–Rumsfeld–and he never saw combat.

The problem they had, was that they realized that the average Amercan does not naturally share these evil “wet dreams” and, in the absense of another threatening superpower, it would be hard to convince Americans that it is necessary to outspend the whole world on our military–half of the Federal budget yearly. They desperately needed Americans to “come to their senses”. Check out this statement from page 51 (brackets mine):
Further, the process of transformation [to a permanent war-time economy], even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event–like a new Pearl Harbor.
Yup, 9/11 is exactly what they needed, and it worked out perfectly for them.
 
Having been there and almost killed I can say a few things. War kills! I killed 54 enemy they shot me and attempted to kill me. That is what WAR is all about. Killing is not a sin, muder is a sin. The reason for the war was not for the soldier to judge, ours was to do or die! May God have mercy on the souls of all my friends that died and all the enemy that we killed.God Bless America, land of the free.
In case it isn’t clear above, I am certainly not pointing the finger at any fellow Catholic who served. I enlisted because, at least in my family, that’s what you do when your country calls.

When push came to shove, I knew my conscience wouldn’t let me be a weapon. Fortunately, I was able to serve as a combat medic. But I have never believed that my conscience should apply to others. Heaven knows, if I had carried a side arm I would have been sorely tempted to use it more than once.

I believe, as I believed even before I enlisted, that the final outcome was unavoidable. As I told my father towards the end, “what do you expect when you prop up an unpopular government against a popular uprising?” But questioning the wisdom of policy should, in no way, be seen as questioning those Americans called upon to enact that policy. Rather the orders were stupid or not they were, by and large, carried out with honor and distinction.
 
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