Views on Mormonism?

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Actually Parker is pretty much correct, exept that the Mormon theology of a *restored *priesthood contradicts the terms of the Levitical Covenant grant, as explained in Jer 33. Apart from that, he is right.

The distinction in order between the Melchizedek and Levitical priesthood is quite biblical and real. I don’t know to what extent Parker will agree with all that I am about to say, but here is a basic outline of some key points in the biblical case for this:

The Melchizedek priesthood is the priesthood that a person possesses by virtue of being a firstborn son. Prior to the establishment of the Levitical covenant, there were already priests among the Israelites, but the rights and duties of the priesthood belonged not to the Levites exclusively, but to the firstborn sons of Israel. The priestly role of the firstborn is implied when God says that Israel is to be a “kingdom of priests” (Exod 19:6) and also that “Israel is my son, my firstborn.” (Exod 4:22)

While all of Israel is called to be a kingdom of priests, there is, under the original Sinai Covenant, a special consecration of the firstborn sons within the nation. Hence God commands Moses: “Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel.” (Exod 13:2, cf. 22:29) However, when Israel turns to idolatry in the Golden calf incident, God strips the firtborn of their priesthood and hands it over to the Levites, who get the hoary the job of slaying many of the idolators. Only then does God say to the Levites: “Today you have consecrated yourselves to the Lord.” (Exod 32:29) And afterwards we read in Numbers: “Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the Lord.” (3:45)

The outcome of the new establishment of the Levites as priests is the long and extensive legislation that rolls out until the end of Deuteronomy, as God continually adds statutes to correct Israel’s continual backsliding. This is why, even from the Old Testament itself, we can see that the Old Law was provisional, it is a remedy for the disestablishment for the firstborn sons. In the New Covenant, however, preisthood is reclaimed for the firstborn by Christ, and that is one of the principal teachigns of the Letter to the Hebrews. Notice how central the unity of sonship and preisthood is for St. Paul, and how it serves as a basis for understanding Christ’s priesthood in linght of Melchizedek:

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Heb 5:5-6)

[Note: Most of the Fahters and ancient Rabbis agree that Melchizedek is a title of Shem, the firstobrn son of Noah, who was still alive in Abraham’s time, according to the geneologies.]
No sir, Parker is wrong. There is no need for that Priesthood NOW. Nor is there any Biblical reference to support that any of the OT Prophets held that Priesthood.

I challenge you to show me where Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha, etc held that title.

Thank you in advance.

In His Grip
 
Parker,

I appreciate your studies that you do not see the Catholic Church as that portrayed in Mormonism…if so, it was also part of the Restorationist movement in the USA where several others were holding that…there are ecclesial communities in the city I live in …unfortunately, it is being taught to Romanian and other immigrants coming to America who are Protestant and do not have deep ties to Orthodox roots.

As you know, what I came across was old materials from the 1800’s…most likely an 1852 edition written by Orson Pratt…whose work has been considered a great work…who used terrible language about the great Roman Church and her Protestant daughters…‘Pearl of Great Price’…I know of other books of the PGP…that do not have such quotes.

But such perception and labelling of the Catholic Church has been done in Mormonism. Ex Mormons were lurking our threads when it was brought up about the Mormons finally getting their temple built in the outskirts of Rome, of particular interest in seeing how the Catholics would respond, considering the history of Mormonism.

I have read about the ritual of someone representing a Catholic priest, that involves the candidate grabbing his throat and choking…

Or people being threatened that their innards will be taken out if they reveal any secrets.

The bottom line is that Mormonism is claiming to restore the true Gospel because all else is corrupt…and they know that the Catholic Church is the beginning of all Christianity.

MtOlympus…I appreciate your kind words…but yes the nuances and caricatures and misinformation was there in a very nice presentation of the King James Bible…I don’t know if they will show it again.

However, as has been shared here by former Mormon women and men…they are giving an insight of information about the practices of your beliefs that have been in existence…and we are not hearing the full story unless they come forward with the truth of their experiences…and they have proven that.

Joseph Smith…how can I say this…restoring Christianity…long lost immediately after the Apostles…is obviously not true from all the history, archeology, documentation…

Martin Luther lost faith, and afterwards, thought the Holy Spirit did not continue in each generatio the passing on of faith. Yet so much was done to insure the continuity of faith!

It is Jesus Christ Who gives us faith, Who is the Tree of Life, the only Tree named by God of those Adam and Eve could eat…the Tree that gives us nourishment, Who on the Road to Emmaus is the one to break open the meaning of Scripture. Our liturgies have centered on the Word of God and the Eucharist since the very beginning.

If we look to Joseph Smith…then we are looking to man to save himself, to deify himself. This is not Christianity…

It is like saying…Well, I Kathleen, saw this angel back behind my house the other day, I had to put on some glasses to read something in a hat…and I read that I was chosen by God to restore the ancient religion in Tibet…they are all wrong, they have been doing it wrong all these thousands of years…but I have it right and I can prove it…Trust me!
 
Parker,

I appreciate your studies that you do not see the Catholic Church as that portrayed in Mormonism…if so, it was also part of the Restorationist movement in the USA where several others were holding that…there are ecclesial communities in the city I live in …unfortunately, it is being taught to Romanian and other immigrants coming to America who are Protestant and do not have deep ties to Orthodox roots.

As you know, what I came across was old materials from the 1800’s…most likely an 1852 edition written by Orson Pratt…whose work has been considered a great work…who used terrible language about the great Roman Church and her Protestant daughters…‘Pearl of Great Price’…I know of other books of the PGP…that do not have such quotes.

But such perception and labelling of the Catholic Church has been done in Mormonism. Ex Mormons were lurking our threads when it was brought up about the Mormons finally getting their temple built in the outskirts of Rome, of particular interest in seeing how the Catholics would respond, considering the history of Mormonism.

I have read about the ritual of someone representing a Catholic priest, that involves the candidate grabbing his throat and choking…

Or people being threatened that their innards will be taken out if they reveal any secrets.

The bottom line is that Mormonism is claiming to restore the true Gospel because all else is corrupt…and they know that the Catholic Church is the beginning of all Christianity.

MtOlympus…I appreciate your kind words…but yes the nuances and caricatures and misinformation was there in a very nice presentation of the King James Bible…I don’t know if they will show it again.

However, as has been shared here by former Mormon women and men…they are giving an insight of information about the practices of your beliefs that have been in existence…and we are not hearing the full story unless they come forward with the truth of their experiences…and they have proven that.

Joseph Smith…how can I say this…restoring Christianity…long lost immediately after the Apostles…is obviously not true from all the history, archeology, documentation…

Martin Luther lost faith, and afterwards, thought the Holy Spirit did not continue in each generatio the passing on of faith. Yet so much was done to insure the continuity of faith!

It is Jesus Christ Who gives us faith, Who is the Tree of Life, the only Tree named by God of those Adam and Eve could eat…the Tree that gives us nourishment, Who on the Road to Emmaus is the one to break open the meaning of Scripture. Our liturgies have centered on the Word of God and the Eucharist since the very beginning.

If we look to Joseph Smith…then we are looking to man to save himself, to deify himself. This is not Christianity…

It is like saying…Well, I Kathleen, saw this angel back behind my house the other day, I had to put on some glasses to read something in a hat…and I read that I was chosen by God to restore the ancient religion in Tibet…they are all wrong, they have been doing it wrong all these thousands of years…but I have it right and I can prove it…Trust me!
I attended the temple ceremonies for years. I have attended the LDS Temples in Idaho Falls, Jordon River, Provo, Salt Lake, Guatemala, Chicago, and DC. I stopped in 1989. Back then, a Catholic Priest was the agent of Satan. Women had to swear allegiance to their husbands, but not visa versa. And you vowed to allow your throat to be slit, your bowels to sliced open, and other blood shed if you broke any vows. God di not bring women into heaven, husbands brought them.

It was not until later that I discovered much of temple ceremony came straight from the Masonic Temple ceremony.

In His Grip
 
@TexanKnight -

I studied the Temple ceremonies, but to read of them again just gives me the chills.
 
Kathleen,

Days ago there were conversations about people willing to die for Christ and for the truth, and how important that seemed to be to Catholics.

What you have been misinformed about is that being willing to die for Christ and for the truth is often part of covenant theology, and shouldn’t surprise a believer in Christ who is aware of those who died for their testimony of Christ such as Stephen, Peter, James and Paul.

Soren1 was correct in his (or her) explanation, and I tremendously appreciate his (or her) sensitivity to the topic he (or she) sensitively addressed. (I think I know the gender, but just in case I supposed I needed to add the other possibility.)
 
Kathleen,

Days ago there were conversations about people willing to die for Christ and for the truth, and how important that seemed to be to Catholics.

What you have been misinformed about is that being willing to die for Christ and for the truth is often part of covenant theology, and shouldn’t surprise a believer in Christ who is aware of those who died for their testimony of Christ such as Stephen, Peter, James and Paul.

Soren1 was correct in his (or her) explanation, and I tremendously appreciate his (or her) sensitivity to the topic he (or she) sensitively addressed. (I think I know the gender, but just in case I supposed I needed to add the other possibility.)
The killing in the temple ceremonies was not “being willing to die for Christ”. They being willing to have your throat slit or bowels cut open for revealing what went on in the temple. I hope you can see the difference, Brother Parker.

In His Grip
 
soren1, thanks for finding this verse.
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.(1 Nephi 14:10)
Wow lookee here, 1 Nephi 14:10 agrees that the Catholic Church is the one that belongs to Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. After all Jesus founded the Catholic Church and he is the Lamb of God.

Makes sense to me. :clapping: :yup:
 
The killing in the temple ceremonies was not “being willing to die for Christ”. They being willing to have your throat slit or bowels cut open for revealing what went on in the temple. I hope you can see the difference, Brother Parker.

In His Grip
I was a Freemason for twentyfive years before my conversion to the True faith. The temple ceremonies were lifted straight from Freemasonry, in some cases word for word. I had to memorize all three degrees, I remember it very well. the words are the same. There is nothing “divine” or “sacred” about them. The fact that the penal portions of the Endowment have been dropped/modified only points up the fact that the so-called “sacred” ceremonies, like the rest of mormon doctrine, is infinitely changeable, whatever the circumstances happen to be. Temple ceremonies a little too graphic? No problem, change it. Blacks making a little too much noise about priesthood? No problem, change it. Catholic priests as agents of Satan? No problem, change it. Someone said that defining mormon “doctrine” is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. One day it is “Holy Writ”, the next day, mere opinion. Do mormons wait in anticipation for the next change in doctrine? Are mormon “scriptures” contained in loose-leaf binders? Who knows?
 
soren1, thanks for finding this verse.
Wow lookee here, 1 Nephi 14:10 agrees that the Catholic Church is the one that belongs to Jesus Christ the Lamb of God
Joe Smith had trouble keeping a lot of things straight. After all, he had to read a magic stone in a hat. mormons have had to change a lot of things and even then it doesn’t make sense. But then, I guess that it is not necessary for it to make sense, as long as you have that “burning in the bosom.”
 
The Great and Abominable Church is not the Catholic specifically nor is that interprataion support by much evidence from the Mormon theological tradition. Even Bruce McConkie, who had nothing good to say about Catholicism, thought so. Rather, the Great and Abominable Church is not even apostate Christendom in general, but anything outside of the true Church of Christ. In point of fact that does entail bad news for Catholicism, and the description of the Great and Abominable Church in the BOM does sound suspiciously similar to Anti-Catholic Protestant propaganda. But if you look at how the text defines the Great and Abominable Church, it does not make a specifically anti-Catholic statment. Rather it says:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.(1 Nephi 14:10)

This is a big claim, but it carries no special offence for Catholics.

As for the LDS Temple Endowment, there has never been any songling out of a Catholic priest in it. Now, I generally consider it unfair to bring up the Endowment ceremony in a public discussion, becasue Mromons consdier it sacred and are not allowed to discuss it outside the Temple. Since there is nothing theological in the endowment that can’t be learned from other LDS sources, there is no need to offend their sensibilities by speaking of the Endowment directly. But, in any case, the character is not a Catholic priest but a “sectarian minister” who teaces only generic Christian doctrines.

This is not to say that a strong anti-Catholics sentiment does not or never has existed i nthe Mormon theology, only that if contains more nuance than you seem to realize. Cartainly a Mormon reading this thread would not feel his conscience pricked by the assertions you are making, and you should take care, and not make such agressive claims unless you have done sufficient study to back it up very well.
🤷 I was taught repeatedly, as a Mormon, that the Roman Catholc Church is the great and abominable church. What you have described here is a damage control.
 
Joe Smith had trouble keeping a lot of things straight. After all, he had to read a magic stone in a hat. mormons have had to change a lot of things and even then it doesn’t make sense. But then, I guess that it is not necessary for it to make sense, as long as you have that “burning in the bosom.”
As a favor to a fellow Catholic, could you not use “Joe Smith”? Mormons typcally find that very offensive and I would hate to be intentionally offensive to Brother Parker, et al
 

As a first step, you could focus on a clear definition of what it means to be Catholic, get your own house in order. Per the recent Catholic survey in USA Today, a significant number (70%) don’t believe in the “Teaching Authority” of Rome, yet they still claim to be Catholic. In a PEW survey, I’ve seen that the majority don’t even believe in Transubstantiation?****

I used to be in that group until I started studying my own faith, including the early fathers. But as Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, " The truth is the truth even if no one believes it, and a lie is a lie,even if everyone believes it. "
 
As a favor to a fellow Catholic, could you not use “Joe Smith”? Mormons typcally find that very offensive and I would hate to be intentionally offensive to Brother Parker, et al
To you as a fellow Catholic, yes, but not out of any respect or regard for a man who was guilty of many sins and whose false teaching has led many astray.
 
Tony

Shunning is awful. LDS practice it do they not? LDS have a warm, family culture until you stir things up (would you ask your bishop anything we have posted lately? or are you a bishop yourself or part of the LDS hierarchy?)
Women waiting @ grave to be beckoned by hubbie is _________
God hood to LDS - Wow, never could get over that one - just isn’t 'gonna happen folks
Jesus transforming is a huge problem
Mary having relations with the Father is ________ and unbiblical

In another thread I asked you 4x to state if you believed you would one day be a “god” and you failed to give me a DIRECT answer - Yes or No would have sufficed

To say I am ______ whatever is a method of skirting around the issues. I don’t hate LDS people or you - theology is the obvious problem- there are some real stunning beliefs going on here that are a huge departure from Christianity

I invite you (and ParkerD & any other LDS) to get your hands on the following and research for yourself:

Millennial Star editions (see other thread)
1835 Edition of Doctrine and Covenants
1830 Edition of the Book of Mormon
1833 Book of Commandments
1851 Pearl of Great Price

Focus on the message please and not the messenger
 
To you as a fellow Catholic, yes, but not out of any respect or regard for a man who was guilty of many sins and whose false teaching has led many astray.
Thank you. I appreciate it. Though I agree with you about Joseph Smith, I respect the people who post on this board.

Thank you
 
Meltzerboy,

Yes that is correct. They don’t believe in the Trinity.
They believe in three separate god of what they call the god head.

The Father —whom they identify as Elohim of the OT is an exalted and perfected man whom achieve godhood. They see him as the literal spirit father of all human beings (and yes they believe there is a/are heavenly mother(s) , as well as all the angels, which they believe are not a complete and different kind of species

They also believe that the fallen angels are those spirit children who rebelled against the father’s plan and followed Lucifer…whom is also one of the father’s spirit children and hence a brother to all of us as well as Jesus. So when you hear that Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are spirit brothers, this is what they are referring to. In terms of spirit brothers and sisters, we are all considered spirit offspring of the father, which includes Jesus and Satan.

They teach what is known as the “Plan of Salvation”. In the pre-existance there was a war in heaven with the spirit children. The father asked “whom shall I send”. Lucifer (Satan) said “send me and I will make sure not one (human being) is lost.(ie he would deny them free will and force them to obey).” He went on to say “surely I will do this so give me the glory”.

Jesus, the oldest of all of the Father’s spirit children (whom they claim is Jehovah of the OT and was his premortal name) stood up and said." Send me and all the glory be thine"

So the rest of the spirit children (you, me, all who have ever lived, all who will live etc) chose sides between these two of brothers (so yes they believe that Satan is also our spirit brother as well). Those who followed Jehovah are those who have come to earth (or will yet come) and attained a body.

Those who chose to follow Lucifer became the fallen angels. (they use the phrase, “did not keep their first estate”…and are denied bodies for all eternity.

Then there is the Holy Ghost…A spirit brother of all of us who has yet to get his mortal body.

So you see, that is why their baptism is not seen as valid. They have a completely different view of God at the very core. It is this reason that many claim they are not Christian. Because of their view of what they deem is the real nature of the “god head”
So according to Mormon theology, is Jesus now a god, or has he not progressed to godhood yet? Since Jesus is not Mormon, did the Mormons have to perform a baptism for the dead on behalf of Jesus?
 
In reference to Tony about the Catholic Church having priests of the order of Melchizedek,
well, it is true.

Levite priests had a beginning and end. Melchizedek had no beginning, no end.

Only the Levites were to offer sacrifices in the wilderness and in the temple and the furnishings of the temple. Levites who were direct descendents of Aaron were appointed priests, and received assistance from their brother Levites. Any other who attempted to be a priest, died. And Levite priests had a distinct beginning and end, starting at age 30 and ending at age 50.

To be a priest, the priest had to prove his genealogy from his mother and father, and other relatives coming from the Levites. After the Babylonian Exile, those Levite priests who returned but could not prove their genealogy, could not serve as priestss.

This is what confuses me about the restoration of the Aaronic priesthood. Could one of our LDS posters explain to me how the Aaronic priesthood as practiced by the LDS church today is related to the original Levitical priesthood that Aaron belonged to? First, today’s teen boys are very likely not related to Aaron. That alone makes it seem impossible to have a restoration. Second, what function do they perform that is related? It seems to me a priest’s duties have always been related to sacrifice. That would include Catholic priests and the sacrifice of the mass. Thanks!
 
I keep getting the quotes messed up. Could someone please explain to me how to get a quote I’d like to comment on into a little box that looks distinct from my own comments? Thanks!
 
I
It was not until later that I discovered much of temple ceremony came straight from the Masonic Temple ceremony.

I
If the LDS temple ceremonies are modeled on the Masonic temple ceremonies, as I’ve heard many times, that seems ironic. Don’t the Masonic ceremonies really mean to make fun of religious rites with exaggeration and irreverence?
 
In another thread I asked you 4x to state if you believed you would one day be a “god” and you failed to give me a DIRECT answer - Yes or No would have sufficed
I have been reading this entire thread, and I can’t count the number of times this question has been ignored.

Has anyone here read the “Book of Abraham”? This is an alleged script translated by J. Smith, from a papyrus he bought from a mummy salesman. If you read it, you will be astounded, as to the reference to “GODS”, deciding everything to do with humanity.

I have also read that many LDS leave the LDS church after reading that “Book of Abraham”.

So I will repeat the question:

Will LDS members one day become a GOD?
 
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