Views on Mormonism?

[mtolympus]

John 1
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without it him nothing was made that has been made

Eternity and infinity are hard terms for mortal beings to understand. They mean that there is no beginning and there is no end. So when the Bible say in the beginning we must ask “the beginning of what.” In my opinion, the beginning is when God created by Jesus Christ our Universe. There is no need to speculate beyond this creation. We believe all of John 1. Jesus is the divine creator and he was with God in the beginning when God said “Let us create man in our image, after our likeness.” (Gen 1:26)

 

[Heuchler]

Eternity and infinity are hard terms for mortal beings to understand. They mean that there is no beginning and there is no end. So when the Bible say in the beginning we must ask “the beginning of what.” In my opinion, the beginning is when God created by Jesus Christ our Universe. There is no need to speculate beyond this creation. We believe all of John 1. Jesus is the divine creator and he was with God in the beginning when God said “Let us create man in our image, after our likeness.” (Gen 1:26)

“Through him ALL things were made and without him nothing was made that has been.” Everything was made through him therefore there could not have been past creations that would have been made before Christ because without Christ nothing was made. So, a planet where God could have lived in the past with other beings could not have existed because there would have been no Christ to exist to make them.

 

[Telstar]

mwok,

It was indeed the temptation that Satan used to Eve only (not to Adam) that “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

I find it always interesting that people use Satan’s temptation as their teacher about what God had as His plan for humankind. I think that is an unhelpful way to look at being taught by the Bible–to stop with those words and say now one knows the will of God on the subject.

I always find it interesting when LDS ignore the fact that Satan is the father of all lies, yet they say he was telling the truth when he told Eve:Genesis [4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. [5] “For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.” If Satan was telling the truth, then Eve should have immediately become equal to God, and so should Adam as soon as he ate it, but they didn’t become ‘gods’, and eventually, they both died. They certainly had no power to resist God’s punishment in any way. They cowered in a corner to hide from Him, because they realized that they had sinned by disobeying Him, and that they would be punished for it. Why would they be afraid of Him if they became equal to Him after eating the fruit? Since God did punish both** of them for it, and they were expelled from the Garden, who do you think was really telling them the truth about what would happen when they ate that fruit, based on the Bible, alone? God or Satan?

If you truly believe that Satan that was telling Eve the truth about becoming ‘gods’, then you seem to be admitting that he is your ‘god’, and not God the Eternal Father, or Jesus Christ, His only Son. Wouldn’t that be a fair assessment of LDS belief on this matter? You might want to think about that if you’re not sure, because your salvation might depend on your answer. You can’t serve two masters. So, if you choose to believe in the lies of Satan that Joseph Smith told you were actually the truth, then you might get what you ‘want’ in the end, but, it probably won’t be what you think it’ll be. Satan is the ‘god of this world’, who also offered Jesus the ability to rule over it when He was fasting in the desert. All He had to do was bow down and worship Satan, but, Jesus immediately recognized those evil lies, and their source. He wasn’t fooled in the least by the ‘angel of light’ that came to deceive Him.

Unfortunately, Joseph Smith wasn’t as ‘enlightened’ as he thought he was, and he did fall for that lie. As a result, all who follow him take the same bait, hook, line and eternal sinker. They might ‘reign’ with him over this physical world for a short while, if that’s what they really want to do, but they will never reign in Heaven, or anywhere remotely like it. Nor will they be able to share in God’s glory. So, be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it.

But that is what consistently happens. People will not take the many, many passages that talk about becoming like Christ, becoming a joint heir with Him, being made “ruler over many things” through learning complete unselfishness, unconditional love, and the kind of faith described in Hebrews 11. Instead, they dwell on the temptation of Satan who thus becomes the teacher and they say, “That’s the way it is, and that’s all, folks–Satan knows why we are here, and was being perfectly truthful as always.” (Not my way of looking at the way Satan tempts, at all–his way is to always deceive, always.)

People that understand the true meaning of all those passages take their belief from Jesus Christ, the Word of God, Who being God, came to earth and took on human flesh in order to save us from the original sin of Adam & Eve, and to reopen the gates of Paradise to their descendents, who had been barred from ever entering until they were redeemed by Him, the Messiah of God, as God had promised Abraham. The only requirement for salvation is to learn His Truth from those that He personally chose to guide mankind in the correct way to follow in His Holy footsteps, and those that they would leave in charge to carry on, after them. He never said it would ever be easy. In fact, He told us that ‘the world’ would hate us. We were told by Him to pick up our own cross and follow Him.[Matthew 16:] [24] “Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” Then, we will all become more ‘like Him’, in being crucified to this world, in order to be found worthy of entering Heaven in the next world.

 

[mtolympus]

So, this means that Christ was the first and there was nothing before him showing that God the Father could not be a part of creation. Thank you then.

If that is your conclusion so be it. That is not my conclusion. The Bible says Jesus was “the first born of every creature.”

 

[Heuchler]

If that is your conclusion so be it. That is not my conclusion. The Bible says Jesus was “the first born of every creature.”

But what other conclusions are there? If Christ is the first, and nothing else was created without Christ, then how could God the father have been once a created being on another created planet with other created beings. You either deny that the Father was a created being or that everything was created by Christ, unfortunately there isn’t a middle ground with this subject.

 

[mtolympus]

I had a Mormon tell me once that using the cross was horrible…it was displaying an implement of torture. This person asked me “if someone shot your wiife and killed her, would you wear a gun around your neck?”

I responded, “if her death saved all mankind from their sins I might”

That is a good point! We should never be disrespectful of the religious symbols of others.

 

[HonoraDominum]

In regards to the Passion of Christ, Catholics tend to put more emphasis on the crucifixion while LDS tend to put more emphasis on Jesus’ Agony in the Garden’ where they believe the atonement occurred. Both faiths recognize the entire Passion, I just believe the emphasis is stressed in two different places.

All Christians stress the importance Easter and the Resurrection. I just enjoy the Catholic experience in it’s celebration much better with the 40 days of Lent, Holy Week, and then 50 days of Easter celebration that ends on Pentecost. For myself, Easter Sunday in the LDS church is just a special Sunday. I realize the correct understanding of the LDS faith is that Easter is celebrated every Sunday but it falls short as compared to the Catholic experience.

LDS do a better job on Mother’s Day than Catholics do IMO…

Two quick points:

First, please indulge me in a small moment of Post Traumatic Mormon Disorder. When I was single and Mormon, I HATED Mother’s Day. In the Singles Ward, the Elder’s Quorum gave all the women in Relief Society roses for being “future mothers”. But some of the girls were handed the flowers lovingly and were rushed by multiple guys trying to give her a rose, and others (like me) didn’t even get eye contact with the priesthood holder giving us the flowers. It always felt so hypocritical, like when the popular kid’s mom at at school makes the kid give everyone cupcakes on their birthday, but it’s obvious who the kid really wants to have the cupcakes and who is only a Cupcake of Obligation. More than anything, it was always a reminder that I was not “complete” (read: going to the Celestial Kingdom) until I was married and had children. Now that I’m Catholic and married, it was not in God’s will for us to have children. But I actually feel complete now, because it’s God’s Mercy that completes me.

Secondly, I was looking at my old Quad (LDS scripture set) for a scripture reference, and found something quite funny in my KJV New Testament.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAAAAHY/-lUYIvVVM1s/s522/ldscriptures.jpg

Looking at this with Catholic eyes, do you see any problem with the emphasis that was placed on this particular scripture passage? What immediately caught my eye is the fact that when I say the rosary and focus on the first Sorrowful mystery, my emphasis is on the fact that the entire point of the mystery for me is when Christ says, “Thy will be done.” My priest explained it once as that the Agony was the fight of the will in Christ, and that line is when the Passion truly began. The word “Passion” is derived from the word Passive, and the Passion is the ultimate example of passively accepting the will of God in your life. For that to not even have a footnote or a star or something in my scriptures really says something about the way I viewed the passion and crucifixion when I was in Mormon Institute and Seminary classes and learning “scripture chase” passages.

I do miss those cool little see-through sticky pictures, though. I’d love some of those for my 1962 EF Daily Missal, with the pictures of what the priest is doing during different parts of the mass, and maybe a few for the prominent feast days. I did do something to my missal, though - I made teeny little clear labels with the Discalced Carmelite shield on them and put them in the readings on the feast days for Carmelite saints like the feast day for St. Theresa, little Thérèse, St. John of the Cross and Our Lady of Mount Carmel. I love me some stickers, that’s for sure.

 

[mtolympus]

In Luke it says I know no man which means I have not physically had sex with a man. The response was that the Holy Spirit would come down and lead to her impregnation.

It is true that Mary was a virgin. However, the Bible doesn’t say anything about the Holy Ghost impregnating anyone. The Holy Ghost was required to come upon Mary otherwise she could not as a mortal be able to stand the presence of God, “the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” The Bible tells us that Jesus would be called the “Son of the Highest.” (Luke 1:32)

The Holy Ghost must come upon anyone for him or her to see or be in the presence of God. Another example was when Stephen saw God and Jesus Christ.

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

 

[mtolympus]

Two quick points:

First, please indulge me in a small moment of Post Traumatic Mormon Disorder. When I was single and Mormon, I HATED Mother’s Day. In the Singles Ward, the Elder’s Quorum gave all the women in Relief Society roses for being “future mothers”. But some of the girls were handed the flowers lovingly and were rushed by multiple guys trying to give her a rose, and others (like me) didn’t even get eye contact with the priesthood holder giving us the flowers. It always felt so hypocritical, like when the popular kid’s mom at at school makes the kid give everyone cupcakes on their birthday, but it’s obvious who the kid really wants to have the cupcakes and who is only a Cupcake of Obligation. More than anything, it was always a reminder that I was not “complete” (read: going to the Celestial Kingdom) until I was married and had children. Now that I’m Catholic and married, it was not in God’s will for us to have children. But I actually feel complete now, because it’s God’s Mercy that completes me.

As one who has been in several bishop’s council meetings planning the Mother’s day program, I have seen the great concern every bishop has on how to honor Motherhood without hurting the feelings of those women who would like to be mothers and are not. We always gave flowers to all adult women. It is a very sensitive subject. I have a sister who wanted to be married and have children more than anything. She was not married until her late forties and never had children of her own. I know the pain she went through before she was married. She is still a Mormon and is now very happy.

 

[Heuchler]

It is true that Mary was a virgin. However, the Bible doesn’t say anything about the Holy Ghost impregnating anyone. The Holy Ghost was required to come upon Mary otherwise she could not as a mortal be able to stand the presence of God, “the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee.” The Bible tells us that Jesus would be called the “Son of the Highest.” (Luke 1:32)

The Holy Ghost must come upon anyone for him or her to see or be in the presence of God. Another example was when Stephen saw God and Jesus Christ.

“But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

Well coming from the trinitarian beliefs of Catholicism, the Holy Spirit and God are one allowing for them to say that Christ is the son of God but He was incarnated through the power Holy Spirit. But I can at least understand where you are coming from and how your interpretation came about. I still see no evidence though in scriptures that God the Father was the physical father and more evidence that He was incarnated through the power of the Holy Spirit as the second person of the trinity (in other words the Son of God the Father.)

But, how is it that she had a virgin birth and “had not known any man” if God physically impregnated her?

 

[eo_chibears]

I cannot wrap my mind around some of their beliefs. Comments?

Is it true that they believe they can become a God of thier own planet? According to their beliefs, did Jesus just visit Utah, or other parts of the continent as well?

 

[mtolympus]

But what other conclusions are there? If Christ is the first, and nothing else was created without Christ, then how could God the father have been once a created being on another created planet with other created beings. You either deny that the Father was a created being or that everything was created by Christ, unfortunately there isn’t a middle ground with this subject.

In other words you don’t believe that Jesus was the first born of every creature. I guess that is one point for me in believing what the Bible says. You are applying reason to eternity, of which in my humble opinion, you don’t have a clue.

 

[mtolympus]

Well coming from the trinitarian beliefs of Catholicism, the Holy Spirit and God are one allowing for them to say that Christ is the son of God but He was incarnated through the power Holy Spirit. But I can at least understand where you are coming from and how your interpretation came about. I still see no evidence though in scriptures that God the Father was the physical father and more evidence that He was incarnated through the power of the Holy Spirit as the second person of the trinity (in other words the Son of God the Father.)

I am not trying to convince anyone of what we believe. My purpose in writting in the Catholic forum is to show that Mormons are Christians, we believe the Bible and that we can and should work together in the cause of Christ.

But, how is it that she had a virgin birth and “had not known any man” if God physically impregnated her?

Mary told the angel that she “had not known any man.” This was previous to what the angel told would happen to her. While some anti-mormons jump to the above conclusion about what we believe, we really don’t know. We only know that “power of the Highest overshadowed her.”

 

[Heuchler]

Mary told the angel that she “had not known any man.” This was previous to what the angel told would happen to her. While some anti-mormons jump to the above conclusion about what we believe, we really don’t know. We only know that “power of the Highest overshadowed her.”

Young said, “God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,” vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115).
and
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

She had said how can this be since I have not known any man. The angel never stated or indicated that there would be sexual relations. And as Matthew said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.” and that “she was found with child through the Holy Spirit” It never states through God the Father or through sex. It rather indicates that through a miracle by the Holy Spirit that her conception occurred.

 

[ParkerD]

I always find it interesting when LDS ignore the fact that Satan is the father of all lies, yet they say he was telling the truth when he told Eve:**Genesis **[4] And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death. [5] “For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.” If Satan was telling the truth, then Eve should have immediately become equal to God, and so should Adam as soon as he ate it, but they didn’t become ‘gods’, and eventually, they both died.

Telstar,

Hello to you, and I hope you have had a fine day. Our autumn here is breathtakingly gorgeous this year, and today was another beautiful day.

Latter-day Saints don’t “say he was telling the truth” other than a partial quarter truth, which is of course deceptive and is what he does, always by being deceptive through trying to find the weaknesses within human nature and exploit those weaknesses.

So, he told Eve “you shall not die” (which was an obvious falsehood, and there is not the slightest question in my mind that Eve knew that she would die by having partaken the forbidden fruit, although it isn’t clear if she knew what “shalt surely die” meant, in her condition of innocence).

He told Eve, “your eyes shall be opened, knowing good and evil”. He also said “ye shall be as gods”. Those were two separate conditions–the opening of eyes to “know good and evil” and the condition of “be as gods”.

What I meant by my earlier comment is that the world takes the temptation of Satan and makes it into a complete lie rather than a partial lie, and thus allows Satan to have still been the deceiver and hence the teacher by having said the exact opposite of what he wanted the “students” to believe. This was an act by him of not only deception, but of scorning God’s plan by belittling the idea that anyone could become “like God or Christ”. Such an easy deception for him to have made, taken hook, line, and sinker by those who think it was an appeal to Eve’s pride and that she was tempted by her pride (what?–not in the text, not anywhere in any Biblical text talking about her or about Adam–but instead a rush to judgment of Eve, which was what the deceiver intended by the deception–to mock and destroy God’s plan of salvation.)

… Wouldn’t that be a fair assessment of LDS belief on this matter?

Telstar,

I didn’t re-post your comment, since it was so far off the mark that it would be completely a mockery of Christ and the plan of salvation to re-post it.

As far as my beliefs on the matter of becoming like Christ (and He taught that He is like His Father), they are taken from Christ’s teachings as I have already noted, and from the teachings of Paul as I have already noted, and from the teachings by the visions John had that I have already noted–so you can just as well take with you the understanding that Latter-day Saints know completely that Satan intended to destroy God’s plan of salvation, and still does that every day to everyone he can influence, and that God’s plan of salvation included very clear teachings about “be ye therefore perfect”, about repentance which means becoming a better person day by day which leads on an upward path of progress, and about really and truly becoming “like Christ”.

When Peter lost a measure of faith as Christ had asked him to walk on the water to come out to where he was on the water, then it ought to be pretty obvious to a student of the Bible that God has a plan that is greater for humankind than that which humankind presupposes with their natural mind and mortal expectations–but it requires a level of trust in the Savior, who is the Good Shepherd, that most people aren’t willing to give Him.

Peace to all readers.

 

[ParkerD]

Young said…

Heuchler,

Here is the statement you have completely misquoted, which says nothing of what you included as the erroneous deception of the people placing errors on the internet for the consumption of persons such as yourself:

page 218
Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.
When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever.
To you who are prepared to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son, what I am now telling will eventually be no more strange than are the feelings of a person who returns to his father’s house, brethren, and sisters, and enjoys the society of his old associates, after an absence of several years upon some distant island. Upon returning he would be happy to see his father, his relatives and friends. So also if we keep the celestial law when our spirits go to God who gave them, we shall find that we are acquainted there and distinctly realize that we know all about that world.
Tell me that you do not know anything about God! I will tell you one thing, it would better become you to lay your hands upon your mouths and them in the dust, and cry, “unclean, unclean.”
Whether you receive these things or not, I tell you them in simplicity. I lay them before you like a child, because they are perfectly simple. If you see and understand these things, it will be by the Spirit of God; you will receive them by no other spirit. No matter whether they are told to you like the thunderings of the Almighty, or by simple conversation; if you enjoy the Spirit of the Lord, it will tell you whether they are right or not.
I am acquainted with my Father. I am as confident that I understand in part, see in part, and know and am acquainted with Him in part, as I am that I was acquainted with my earthly father who died in Quincy, Illinois, after we were driven from Missouri. My recollection is better with regard to my earthly father than it is in regard to my heavenly Father; but as to knowing of what species He is, and how He is organized, and with regard to His existence, I understand it in part as well as I understand the organization and existence of my earthly father. That is my opinion about it, and my opinion to me is just as good as yours is to you; and if you are of the same opinion you will be satisfied as I am.
I know my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, and this is eternal life. And if we will do as we have been told this morning, if you will enter into the Spirit of your calling, into the principle of securing to yourselves eternal lives, eternal existence, eternal exaltation, it will be well with you. But if, after being put into a carriage and placed upon the road, after having everything prepared for the journey that infinite
page 219

 

[adrift]

such thing as a “Mormon friend”. There is only a Mormon who has targeted you for conversion.

The technique is known officially as “friendshipping” - making friends with someone to lure them into the LDS church.

Hi-ho.

I must admit that I am shocked. I thought until now that I had Mormon friends for the past forty years. I mean more than one family too. I haven’t know each family for thirty years just one. The other two I have known for tirty and ten years. I really thought of them as friends.

 

[Heuchler]

Heuchler,

Here is the statement you have completely misquoted, which says nothing of what you included as the erroneous deception of the people placing errors on the internet for the consumption of persons such as yourself:

page 218
Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.
When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. The principle of eternal lives is an eternal existence, eternal duration, eternal exaltation. Endless are His kingdoms, endless His thrones and His dominions, and endless are His posterity; they never will cease to multiply from this time henceforth and forever.
To you who are prepared to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son, what I am now telling will eventually be no more strange than are the feelings of a person who returns to his father’s house, brethren, and sisters, and enjoys the society of his old associates, after an absence of several years upon some distant island. Upon returning he would be happy to see his father, his relatives and friends. So also if we keep the celestial law when our spirits go to God who gave them, we shall find that we are acquainted there and distinctly realize that we know all about that world.
Tell me that you do not know anything about God! I will tell you one thing, it would better become you to lay your hands upon your mouths and them in the dust, and cry, “unclean, unclean.”
Whether you receive these things or not, I tell you them in simplicity. I lay them before you like a child, because they are perfectly simple. If you see and understand these things, it will be by the Spirit of God; you will receive them by no other spirit. No matter whether they are told to you like the thunderings of the Almighty, or by simple conversation; if you enjoy the Spirit of the Lord, it will tell you whether they are right or not.
I am acquainted with my Father. I am as confident that I understand in part, see in part, and know and am acquainted with Him in part, as I am that I was acquainted with my earthly father who died in Quincy, Illinois, after we were driven from Missouri. My recollection is better with regard to my earthly father than it is in regard to my heavenly Father; but as to knowing of what species He is, and how He is organized, and with regard to His existence, I understand it in part as well as I understand the organization and existence of my earthly father. That is my opinion about it, and my opinion to me is just as good as yours is to you; and if you are of the same opinion you will be satisfied as I am.
I know my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, and this is eternal life. And if we will do as we have been told this morning, if you will enter into the Spirit of your calling, into the principle of securing to yourselves eternal lives, eternal existence, eternal exaltation, it will be well with you. But if, after being put into a carriage and placed upon the road, after having everything prepared for the journey that infinite
page 219

I don’t see anything real different in what I had quoted and this. “The Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me.” Essentially, once again God the father came down and had sex with Mary to provide Christ “with a tabernacle”. There is nothing in there that indicates that Mormons don’t believe that God had sex with Mary.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t see anything real different in what I had quoted and this. “The Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me.” …

So then I can’t help you with your misunderstanding of the English language. 'Bye.

 

[jediliz]

Mary most likely knew how babies were made. She also may have been a CONSECRATED VIRGIN…And she was asking how this **FUTURE CONCEPTION **would take place if she wasn’t planning on HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH A SPOUSE! God DID NOT come down and have Physical SEX with her! That betrays what Christianity has taught from the very beginning. It also denies the VIRGIN BIRTH!

She was engaged/betrothed to Joseph and could have been stoned for Adultery! If Joseph hadn’t been visited by the Angel who told him not to fear taking Mary as his spouse…

There is NOTHING in the bible that said that “you will conceive a son in your womb the natural old fashioned way”. The Angel told her that the Holy Spirit would overshadow her.

Jesus is the ALPHA and the OMEGA. The beginning and the end. He has always been and will always be!

JESUS is NOT the brother of Satan! Satan/Lucifer was a fallen angel who wanted to be TOO MUCH like GOD! He is the father of lies, the prince of darkness.