Views on Mormonism?

[Stephen168]

And we still are.

We are called many things. Saints, the Body of Christ, a royal nation, a holy people, prophets, priests and kings. They are all speaking of the same thing, Christ’s Church, which is much more than a social organization of like-minded believers.

Perhaps you are unaware, today (Nov. 1) is All Saints Day. Our priest gave a beautiful homily at mass earlier this evening. Reminding us that when the waters of baptism were poured over us, we were called then to be saints.

I think our priest gave the same homily:thumbsup:

 

[SteveVH]

If we don’t stick to the four gospels as Christ real and only teaching we open the door to any kind of doctrine just because we feel it is true.

Which is exactly why there is no need for “modern revelation”. Christ is the fulfillment of God’s revelation to mankind. All Mormons need to ask themselves the question: Is Christ not sufficient? How many times do we need to be warned not to accept another gospel, even if given to us by an angel of God? The doctrines and beliefs of Mormonism are the perfect example of what happens when we do. God is then made in the image of man, to the point that he even looks like us, acts like us, consists of the same substance as us, is limited in his power by the laws of nature, is dependent upon pre-existing matter and intelligences in order to create, etc., etc… God has been reduced to a being which can be contained within the human intellect. Any talk of God as mystery, something beyond our ability to grasp, is rejected. God’s power, glory and majesty are reduced to the human ability to understand, making him no greater than us. They, indeed, believe in another God, in fact, an infinite regression of Gods, and have bought into the lie first told to man by Satan.

 

[mtolympus]

Where in the Bible can I find that early Christians were called saints?

Paul often began his epistles with a greeting to the saints of the various cities. For example, to the members of Colosse he opened: “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.” (Col. 1:2); and “to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Phillippi” (Phil 1:1) and “to the saints which are at Ephesus” Eph 1:1)
Paul told the newly baptized members at Ephesus that they were “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” (Eph. 2:19) Paul told the Romans “But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints” (Rom 15:25) Apostles and Prophets and other church officers were given to the church “For the perfecting of the saints.” (Eph 4:12), and many other references.

 

[Miriam1947]

He certainly wasn’t talking about LDS here. Just sayin’.

 

[Telstar]

He certainly wasn’t talking about LDS here. Just sayin’.

What many people fail to realize when they read those references to the early Christians as ‘saints’, is that at that point in time, the immensely strong faith of many of those very holy individuals was very much the same as the faith of those that the Catholic Church recognizes in modern times as Canonized Saints, especially the Apostles and those that were most closely associated with them. They performed amazing miracles of healing, conversion, etc., on a daily basis. I have no doubt that they often saw visions and communicated with Heavenly beings, such as angels and other Saints that were already in Heaven.

They lived extremely holy lives of perfect purity of mind, body and intention, and did not fall back into their previous lives of sin, once they were converted and Baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ. Since they were so very close to Jesus, Himself, they were unmovable in their faith in Him, and in what He had taught them. Therefore, they were actual living saints in the truest sense of the word. They had already reached such a high level of perfection and sanctity, that nowadays is almost impossible to find in any living Christian, no matter how holy they might seem to be (except in very rare cases like Padré Pio), that they were, in fact, true ‘saints’ while they were still walking the earth.

Our faith is like the tiniest speck of dust compared to theirs, that was more like the size of a mountain. There may have been others that were more like us, but they were among the regular congregation. The leaders of the Churches that many of those letters were addressed to, were the holiest amongst the holy people that followed Jesus. The word ‘saint’ is much more than just a title that we might want to apply to ourselves in order to make us feel ‘special’. It has a much deeper meaning in the eyes of God, and there are very few of us that could ever live up to that title, that are alive, today.

 

[mwok]

Paul often began his epistles with a greeting to the saints of the various cities. For example, to the members of Colosse he opened: “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse.” (Col. 1:2); and “to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Phillippi” (Phil 1:1) and “to the saints which are at Ephesus” Eph 1:1)
Paul told the newly baptized members at Ephesus that they were “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” (Eph. 2:19) Paul told the Romans “But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints” (Rom 15:25) Apostles and Prophets and other church officers were given to the church “For the perfecting of the saints.” (Eph 4:12), and many other references.

Are you looking in the KJV? Because I looked up your reference in the New Jerusalem Bible and where your reference says saints the NJB says holy people of God.

 

[mtolympus]

Yes, I know, but a half truth is not uplifting or positive. The Downer is that Mormons here try so hard to make their religion look like something it is not, all the while seeking to undermine the faith of Christians.

Even though we have a somewhat different understanding of the word martyr, we both agree that Stephen was a martyr. That is not a half truth.

I believe that you are a Christian because you believe in Christ. How does my quoting from the Bible to defend my status of as a Christian undermine your faith? The original definition of a Christian came from the people of Antioch where they first called the disciples “Christians.” If the disciples of Christ are Christians, then the following words of Jesus perhaps may tell us the true definition of the term “Christian”: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:35)

 

[mtolympus]

We don’t expect any other church to recognize our baptism. We are perfectly fine with this.

 

[Miriam1947]

We don’t expect any other church to recognize our baptism. We are perfectly fine with this.

I’m so glad to hear this. Will you now stop baptizing our priests and Pope John Paul II, who has now been baptized SIX times into your religion?

Your religion even baptizes our Saints!! Outrageous.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Even though we have a somewhat different understanding of the word martyr, we both agree that Stephen was a martyr. That is not a half truth.

I believe that you are a Christian because you believe in Christ. How does my quoting from the Bible to defend my status of as a Christian undermine your faith? The original definition of a Christian came from the people of Antioch where they first called the disciples “Christians.” If the disciples of Christ are Christians, then the following words of Jesus perhaps may tell us the true definition of the term “Christian”: “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:35)

You have more than a somewhat difference in belief. Errors, that are outside of Christain belief. It is why Mormon baptisms are not valid, which is why Mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christ has one Body. We are baptized into the Life of the Holy Trinity, through the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ. A Mormon baptism does not do this by the fact that Mormonism rejects Who God is.

This is not to say many Mormons do not seek to follow Christ. You are just not fully aware of Who He is and reject the truth about Him.

As for quoting scripture, you do it with a Mormon intent and a Mormon interpretation, warping the Word of God to one purpose, which is to undermine truth and replace it with what is false.

 

[Stephen168]

Members of Jesus’ Church were called Saints at the time the people of Antioch called the disciples “Christians” and this is before they were called Catholics.

The greek word used means “devoted to the gods”. The word saint comes from the Latin ‘sanctus’ for sacred, so the earliest Christians did not call themselves saints (noun). They were Christians, members of the Catholic Church with catholic teachings.

 

[KathleenGee]

The new thread, ‘Theosis’, Soren goes back to Judeo-Christianity’s belief on the One, True God.

In the second post, follow-up, he then explains the Mormon position…

Frankly, as he explains in his posts here, the Mormon sophist is essentially full of errors, but does not recognize his errors as such.

He is in the process of becoming god, there never was a god that created this world…

It is better Mormons follow the Book of Mormon and leave Judeo-Christianity alone. It does not good claiming it for Mormonism beginnings and end. It is like stealing.

I also remember a Mormon response to the Vatican after all universal parishes were directed not to allow the Mormons to gain access to our sacramental records for their baptisms …the reason you see Mormon temples open day and night. People are earning their temple recommend by baptising the dead. A Mormon exclaimed that their religion had discovered a ‘treasure trove’ of – no less-- priest and religious sacramental records going back a thousand years! and they were using them for baptism of the dead.

Just to do that to those souls consecrated to Christ…through their own free will…and a calling by the Lord Himself, shows a very, very serious lack of integrity and a most profound spiritual blindness in that.

I am seeing Mormonism as a man made religion…man the beginning and man the end ‘using God’ as the means to fulfill that end…all very self-contradictory…

I now propose to the Mormons to quit accessing reference to God…when they don’t believe God created this world…and that they themselves will become gods according to their temple recommends and sealings. You don’t need God. Why keep referencing Him? Why dabble and manipulate and even bother with religion that you consider corrupt? Religion to us deals with God.

Can we say that Mormonism is the religion of the Forbidden Fruit?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The greek word used means “devoted to the gods”. The word saint comes from the Latin ‘sanctus’ for sacred, so the earliest Christians did not call themselves saints (noun). They were Christians, members of the Catholic Church with catholic teachings.

Sanctus, which is translated as holy.

Mormons have a similar concept to holiness in their belief of ‘perfection’…similar, but as with all things Mormon, not the same.

But, they have a view that comes from 19th century American Protestantism, which has lost its memory of everything that is kept in Christ’s Church. They have no memory, so they pretend they do by using ours.

Mormons just make stuff up, making claims like no Christian knows disciples of Jesus are called to holiness, which is the very definition of what it means to be a saint. They just think ‘saint’ is a title, and if you don’t call yourself this title in the name of your church, then your church is false.

No one has taught holiness, or lived it more, than Christ’s Body, the one, holy, catholic apostolic church. No one brings the world into the communion of saints, but the one, holy, apostolic church. Mormons have no memory or knowledge of true saints.

 

[mtolympus]

What many people fail to realize when they read those references to the early Christians as ‘saints’, is that at that point in time, the immensely strong faith of many of those very holy individuals was very much the same as the faith of those that the Catholic Church recognizes in modern times as Canonized Saints, especially the Apostles and those that were most closely associated with them. They performed amazing miracles of healing, conversion, etc., on a daily basis. I have no doubt that they often saw visions and communicated with Heavenly beings, such as angels and other Saints that were already in Heaven.

They lived extremely holy lives of perfect purity of mind, body and intention, and did not fall back into their previous lives of sin, once they were converted and Baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ. Since they were so very close to Jesus, Himself, they were unmovable in their faith in Him, and in what He had taught them. Therefore, they were actual living saints in the truest sense of the word. They had already reached such a high level of perfection and sanctity, that nowadays is almost impossible to find in any living Christian, no matter how holy they might seem to be (except in very rare cases like Padré Pio), that they were, in fact, true ‘saints’ while they were still walking the earth.

The early Christians who joined the church were sinners just like everyone else in the world (except Jesus). When they were baptised they became saints by being made Holy through the blood of Jesus.

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Rom 6:3-4)

 

[mtolympus]

You have more than a somewhat difference in belief. Errors, that are outside of Christain belief. It is why Mormon baptisms are not valid, which is why Mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christ has one Body. We are baptized into the Life of the Holy Trinity, through the second Person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ. A Mormon baptism does not do this by the fact that Mormonism rejects Who God is.

This is not to say many Mormons do not seek to follow Christ. You are just not fully aware of Who He is and reject the truth about Him.

As for quoting scripture, you do it with a Mormon intent and a Mormon interpretation, warping the Word of God to one purpose, which is to undermine truth and replace it with what is false.

A least I try to back up what I say with biblical scripture. You may chose to believe what you want.

 

[truthsave]

A least I try to back up what I say with biblical scripture. You may chose to believe what you want.

We have to be careful to find justification in biblical scripture. The heart of the scripture is more important that the words itself.
The devil when tempted Jesus also based his saying in biblical scripture.

 

[Stephen168]

I will never be a Christian according your definition because I am not a Catholic nor a Trinitarian, that is fine. But I am a Christian according to Webster Dictionary and according to the Bible, Acts 11:26. It is a matter of who is difining the term. I don’t think that is so hard to understand.

To be a Christian is to be a Trinitarian. You could dress up in green and call yourself a Boy Scout but that would not make it so. Just as WOSM gets to decide who is a Boy Scout, the Catholic Church decides who is Christian. Mormonism started out as a Christian cult but followed Joseph Smith into apostasy. You can’t reject who Christ is and still be Christian. (John 1:1-14).

 

[andrewstx]

The new thread, ‘Theosis’, Soren goes back to Judeo-Christianity’s belief on the One, True God.

In the second post, follow-up, he then explains the Mormon position…

Frankly, as he explains in his posts here, the Mormon sophist is essentially full of errors, but does not recognize his errors as such.

He is in the process of becoming god, there never was a god that created this world…

It is better Mormons follow the Book of Mormon and leave Judeo-Christianity alone. It does not good claiming it for Mormonism beginnings and end. It is like stealing.

I also remember a Mormon response to the Vatican after all universal parishes were directed not to allow the Mormons to gain access to our sacramental records for their baptisms …the reason you see Mormon temples open day and night. People are earning their temple recommend by baptising the dead. A Mormon exclaimed that their religion had discovered a ‘treasure trove’ of – no less-- priest and religious sacramental records going back a thousand years! and they were using them for baptism of the dead.

Just to do that to those souls consecrated to Christ…through their own free will…and a calling by the Lord Himself, shows a very, very serious lack of integrity and a most profound spiritual blindness in that.

I am seeing Mormonism as a man made religion…man the beginning and man the end ‘using God’ as the means to fulfill that end…all very self-contradictory…

I now propose to the Mormons to quit accessing reference to God…when they don’t believe God created this world…and that they themselves will become gods according to their temple recommends and sealings. You don’t need God. Why keep referencing Him? Why dabble and manipulate and even bother with religion that you consider corrupt? Religion to us deals with God.

Can we say that Mormonism is the religion of the Forbidden Fruit?

To tell the truth Mormons when conversing with each other, never use the word God. It is “heavenly father”.

They only use the wrod God in their attempts to proseletize people away from Christianity to Mormonism.

They never recognise the baptism of others since they lack the supposed “priesthood authority”. They re-baptise all converts without exception.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Re: The Fall

Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) p. 100 #398 on Man’s first sin

"In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Created in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted “to be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God.”

#399 "Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

#400 " The harmony in which they had found themselves, thank to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay.” Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground,” for out of it he was taken."

"Death makes its entrance into human history.

Due to the Fall, it a sinful state:

A & E now have a distorted image of God & are now afraid of Him.
Original justice is destroyed
Soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered.
Man vs. Women now deals with Lust & Domination
Harmony broken
Creation is now subject to It’s bondage to decay
Sin is universal since

CCC continues #405 "By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a person sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.

We contract original sin through birth, not by personal sin or by commission

Yes, the CCC says “divinized” but this does not mean we will be bestowed with a “divine nature” as in God’s Nature, contrary to the lure of the tempter “You shall be as gods”

#373 "…Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original state of holiness was “to share in…divine life.”

Divine life is the original condition of Adam & Eve, NOT Divine nature.

 

[Doxiemom]

I would include the Church of Latter Day Saints to be within the family of Christianity. It is not a cult nor is it satanic.( although there can be cult-like groups formed within LDS and RCC)(or the church up the street for that matter).

Does it appear to me that they have some “strange” beliefs? Yes. But no more strange than trying to explain the consumption of the actual Body and Blood of Jesus; or,keeping a golden box containing a saint’s heart for veneration.

Please understand,I am not trying to make mockery of either the Mormon church nor the Catholic Church.

What is held sacred just should not be made fun of or trivialized. Boy, does that kind of talk bother me. It is just plain wrong, if not sin, to belittle a person’s faith and understanding of this whole idea we call “faith”.

I will accept a person’s word if they say that they are a Christian. I can think that they are befuddled, errant, heretic, even dumb, Chrsitians, but yet under the wings of Christ’s prayer shawl.

God will provide a time and place for evangilizing. The Holy Spirit will provide the words. If it is to be for His Purpose .