Views on Mormonism?

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When I said document from the early church, I was not
referring to the bible. I was talking about the Didache or another
document like it describing the early church.

And nice try, but Augustine lived after the
Church supposedly “apostasized”. I also seriously
doubt he supported multiple wives!
 
No offense meant, but just because a phrase is catchy does not mean it isn’t true. For example, “Common sense isn’t all that common” is catchy & true.
sallybutler,
If you are convinced the person was not ‘proof-texting’ then I urge you to show it being taught to our members. You can search all the recent general conference talks at lds.org/general-conference/conferences?lang=eng.

If you can’t find it being taught, then please don’t resort to emulating Jack Chick, the master of proof-texting, half-truths and innuendo.
 
sallybutler,
If you are convinced the person was not ‘proof-texting’ then I urge you to show it being taught to our members. You can search all the recent general conference talks at lds.org/general-conference/conferences?lang=eng.

If you can’t find it being taught, then please don’t resort to emulating Jack Chick, the master of proof-texting, half-truths and innuendo.
I was raised in Utah and LDS from 1973-2008, seminary, mission, magnified callings, temple marriage, more magnified callings, etc. The works. I still attend church with my LDS wife and sons. I only say that to establish that I’m just as ‘expert’ in Mormonism as the typical life-long Mormon sitting next you during sacrament meeting in any ward, anywhere.

With that out of the way, my patriarchal blessing states that if I remained faithful (I know, I know, I didn’t), I “would be tutored by the Lord himself in the creation of worlds.” That’s a direct quote. What do you think about that statement in my blessing, Tony888? Doctrinal or not doctrinal?
 
This is all true, but I’d like to add some specifications. When we speak about “natures” there a number of different possible meanings. The one that matters for the Catholic doctrine of God is the meaning indicated by the Greek word “physis,” which occurs in the New Testament, most importantly at 2 Pet 1:4, and which has a very definite meaning. The *physis *of an object is that principle of its existence that can be cited in answer to the question “What is it?” For instance, “dog, tree, aluminum, man” can all answer such a question by reference to some kind of nature, namely, “dogness, treeness, aluminumness, manhood.”

The nature of a thing might therefore be defined as “the formal principle of a thing’s existence.” By formal, I mean something distinct from matter. For example, there is no material object “manhood,” although manhood as a form exists in a large number of material objects. While all human beings are made of different material, they all have the same nature because the from of “manhood” is common to all, and all people are made of some matter.

By “element of existence” I mean that a nature is not necessarily the only thing that goes into making a being exist. For instance, we have just seen that human nature is not material, and yet there needs to be some material for the form to be in. In fact, the very notion of form implies matter. (There is no such thing as “manhood,” as a separate being, apart from real, existing men.)

But while nature is a form without specified matter, it does not follow that all forms are natures. For instance, having blue eyes is a form, but cannot answer the question “What is it?” when asked about a man. All forms that do not answer to “What is it?” are accidents, not natures.

Now, before someone objects that this is all so much Greek philosophy, let me remind you than I am not philosophizing about nature, but am defining a biblcal term, which has a meaning in the language it was written in. In modern parlance, we are wont to use “nature” in ways that are very foreign to the meaning of physis. For instance, when we say that a person is “good-natured,” we mean that the person is kind in his personal habits and disposiiton. But personal habits and dispositions are not natures, but accidents. The same man can be virtuous at one time in his life and vicious at another, but that does not amount to a change in his physis, but in his additional, accidental attributes. A physis is the thing that remains static at all times in a being’s existence. That is why it can answer the question “What is it?”

Now, I doubt that the above paragraphs will be very exciting or easy for anyone to read. It was a bit dull even to write it all out. But it matters, bigtime. The reason is that on the Mormon account of exhaltation, the “divine nature” that we come to acquire is not a tranformation in terms of what we are. We already belong to same species as heavenly Father, who is the same kind of thing as we are and have always been. That is to say, Mormon theology denies a difference between the divine *physis *and human physis. What we acquire in exhaltation, therefore, are additional attributes, accidental properties, like moral perfection, power and dominion. These things elevate our status and dignity, but they are not transformations in physis, and cannot be, by definition. Consquently, it is utterly improper to describe Mormon exhaltation as “becoming partakers of the divine physis,” since on the Mormon, materialist account, God’s perfections are distinct from his physis. It is only if we overlook the historical meaning of the Greek word and lighting upon a secondary, modern, improper meaning of “nature” that this text seems to support Mormonism. In reality, to become a partaker of the divine *physis *can only make sense on the presupposition that human physis is something different from God’s, and thus Mormonism falls before its own favorite proof-text.
Thank you so much Soren1. I almost feel guilty reading your posts as it is like taking a theology or philosophy class and not paying for it. It took me a couple of reads before I could put it together but you make, in my mind, an irrefutable point and one that completely escapes both Mormon theology and anthropology.

Thanks again.
 
But as SteveVH pointed out above, when Jesus Christ was on the Earth, the roles of those who previously received revelation on behalf of the people were not in effect as Jesus Himself revealed it. The discussion was not over authority/social position/hierarchical position within the church leadership etc. It was solely to do with who would receive revelation.
What part of “new and everlasting Covenant” do you not understand? This has nothing to do with “roles” of men, but with truth revealed to mankind from God. The truth revealed by the prophets did not cease to exist; rather it pointed to the one who is Truth himself. The New Testament was hidden in the Old Testament and the Old Testament is revealed in the New. The fulness of truth was revealed to mankind in the person of Jesus Christ. What possible “new revelation” could be needed if the fulness of truth has already been revealed? While the truth of God was partially revealed by the various prophets prior to the incarnation of Jesus, it was then fully revelealed by God himself, not men, in the person of Jesus.
 
With that out of the way, my patriarchal blessing states that if I remained faithful (I know, I know, I didn’t), I “would be tutored by the Lord himself in the creation of worlds.” That’s a direct quote. What do you think about that statement in my blessing, Tony888? Doctrinal or not doctrinal?
I do not doubt your blessing may have said that to you, but it is merely speculation based on doctrine.
  • If Christ created the worlds and we partake of the divine nature, then one can logically speculate we can create worlds.
  • In fact, a Catholic could make the same logical deductions based on Catholic doctrine (VERY UNLIKELY that any Catholic would ever make this speculation, but it’s theoretically possible).
As I’ve said elsewhere, I believe teaching people to focus on the perceived position and power of being next to God in the hereafter is fundamentally prideful and not Christ-like.

My only guess is people think painting a wonderful picture of the afterlife will keep the spiritually developing focused on remaining obedient. Sadly, all religions have teachers who dangle the carrot & snap the stick, attempting to guide their members like a dumb beast. I should have expanded on this point with sally, that there can be sperattion between Church doctrine and what a body of members perceive as doctrine.

Back to the LDS, there is a reason many LDS conference talks have focused on the sin of Pride.
 
Jharek,
It is not suprising that the RCC has sound guidance on the perils of this particular subject. 👍
CCC 398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279
 
Hi, Naf623,

I really think you have stepped over the line with this comment, and I think you should back off and recompose your message. This is totally inappropriate for a CAF post. Or, do you think the Mod should handle this?

God bless
And the fact that it takes so many failed attempts for your ‘so called leaders’ who you claim are led by God, to pick a new chap to wave his hand around in the vatican shows that your claims to any revelations are a joke.
Each and every member of the church should be counselling with God, and finding for themselves the truth of their leader’s teachings. Faith cannot, by definition, be blind: nor ought we to be led like sheep - this was (/is) the intentions of Satan, that we be robbed of our eternal right and ability to make choices.

Hardly.
I’m sure I have seen Parker make a much better response than I suspect I will, but I can’t find it offhand.
You are attibuting doctrines to us, but providing no place that this is held or taught by us as doctrine. We have repeatedly pointed out that it is not our teaching or doctrine, and this being the case we have nowhere to show you. If you provide us with doctrine that we teach, and have question regarding it, then we would have opportunity to explain, but how can we explain something which we do not hold as doctrine?

Because we rely on the word of the Lord, the revelations of His Holy Spirit, and the personal confirmation of truth.
 
I have one. It comes across as fact, but is mere general speculation
🤷 I’m beginning to think Mormons don’t know the meaning of the word prophecy. Seems to me for them prophecy is synonymous with speculation.
 
🤷 I’m beginning to think Mormons don’t know the meaning of the word prophecy. Seems to me for them prophecy is synonymous with speculation.
These are the sort of problems that arise when you have a man-made “religion” that was derived from “visions” in a hat. Joseph Smith really did not think it out too well, in his rush to get his scam out on the street. A lot of stuff needed to be revised and tweeked and it is still going on today, under the name of “continuing revelation.” I am convinced that that is the reason that you simply cannot get a straight answer when you ask a mormon about “Doctrine.” I do not think that they know themselves.
 
I do not doubt your blessing may have said that to you, but it is merely speculation based on doctrine.
Lol, yea, that’s what I thought you’d say. Too bad my stake patriarch wasn’t inspired by the Holy Ghost. I guess all of the PBs my still active church pals received from that same patriarch are similarly speculative an uninspired. I’m sure they’d be shocked to find that out. I’ll be sure to tell them that you said so. But, I understand. You MUST adopt that belief, as Mormon prophets have said many wacky things over the years and they need to flip flop as the need arises, just like any slick politician running a well-oiled PR machine. That’s how the church maintains its relevance as it continues to go mainstream. When Mormon prophets’ doctrinal pronouncements become inconvenient, just have the new prophet declare them to be speculative. Easy peasy! One day, I fully expect a Mormon prophet to say “I don’t know that we teach that” when referring to the Book of Mormon’s historicity.
 
Lol, yea, that’s what I thought you’d say. Too bad my stake patriarch wasn’t inspired by the Holy Ghost. I guess all of the PBs my still active church pals received from that same patriarch are similarly speculative an uninspired. I’m sure they’d be shocked to find that out. I’ll be sure to tell them that you said so. But, I understand. ** You MUST adopt that belief, as Mormon prophets have said many wacky things over the years and they need to flip flop as the need arises, just like any slick politician running a well-oiled PR machine. **

That’s how the church maintains its relevance as it continues to go mainstream. When Mormon prophets’ doctrinal pronouncements become inconvenient, just have the new prophet declare them to be speculative. Easy peasy! One day, I fully expect a Mormon prophet to say “I don’t know that we teach that” when referring to the Book of Mormon’s historicity.
Over to you,mormons.🍿
 
👍
Thank you so much Soren1. I almost feel guilty reading your posts as it is like taking a theology or philosophy class and not paying for it. It took me a couple of reads before I could put it together but you make, in my mind, an irrefutable point and one that completely escapes both Mormon theology and anthropology.

Thanks again.
👍
 
I cannot wrap my mind around some of their beliefs. Comments?
Seriously! 😛

I have a co-worker who has picked up on how arrogant a former independent contractor to our office was and I let her know that he was a Mormon, so it makes sense that he would be arrogant since his theology teaches him that he will become a “God” over another planet and that one of their mottos is: “Man is what God once was”. If you truly believe that you’re going to be a God, it only makes sense to be arrogant.

This Mormon theology ideas are so left field that she laughed, looked me straight in the eyes and told me that she just doesn’t believe me. I don’t make this stuff up. 🤷

At Mass this morning, I picked up a Lighthouse Catholic Media cd “From Mormon Missionary to the Catholic Church” by Thomas Smith who can trace his family’s Mormon lineage back 7 generations and asked if she’d believe him. I hope that Thomas Smith discusses his former Mormon beliefs in that cd because I’ve not yet listened to the cd myself. My co-worker agreed to listen to his cd as I had previously given her another Lighthouse Catholic Media cd that she really liked and told me today that she still listens to on occasion.

On a Side Note: My co-worker is a fallen away Catholic. Please pray for her reversion to her Catholic Faith.
 
Hi, CH2R,

I only have one comment on one item … “…it only makes sense to be arrogant…”. As I understand the term it is based on a exaggeration of one’s own worth - it is an illusion to begin with. God is the Supreme Being - and that is no illusion. If this individual was in the process of inflating his ego (think puffer fish - here are some pictures: google.com/search?q=puffer+fish&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=XrPBTrHECIi3sQLe9vmnBA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=588&sei=ZLPBTurnLbP3sQLkz9TLBA ) then he has certainly fallen far from the model given to us by Christ- Matt 11:29 “Take my yoke upon you for I am meek and humble of heart”.

So, let me see if I have this straight, Hosemonkey … we have prophets who speculate and gods who are arrogant, missing tablets of gold, the advantage of statehood winning over a revealed ‘speculation’ … and a choir that can really do justice to Handle’s “Messiah” year after year…youtube.com/watch?v=skgrFTu6KTI&feature=related. Looks like 1 out of 5 to me… 😉

My wife and I will be praying for your co-worker’s return to the Catholic Church. 🙂

God bless
Seriously! 😛

I have a co-worker who has picked up on how arrogant a former independent contractor to our office was and I let her know that he was a Mormon, so it makes sense that he would be arrogant since his theology teaches him that he will become a “God” over another planet and that one of their mottos is: “Man is what God once was”. If you truly believe that you’re going to be a God, it only makes sense to be arrogant.

This Mormon theology ideas are so left field that she laughed, looked me straight in the eyes and told me that she just doesn’t believe me. I don’t make this stuff up. 🤷

At Mass this morning, I picked up a Lighthouse Catholic Media cd “From Mormon Missionary to the Catholic Church” by Thomas Smith who can trace his family’s Mormon lineage back 7 generations and asked if she’d believe him. I hope that Thomas Smith discusses his former Mormon beliefs in that cd because I’ve not yet listened to the cd myself. My co-worker agreed to listen to his cd as I had previously given her another Lighthouse Catholic Media cd that she really liked and told me today that she still listens to on occasion.

On a Side Note: My co-worker is a fallen away Catholic. Please pray for her reversion to her Catholic Faith.
 
Hello,
From what I have discussed with my Mormon friends, their god is a material being (not a spirit) who was a good mormon human on another planet that achieved the state of godhood for his devotion.

This version of a god (I say “a” god because there are many, many gods according to mormon religion) directly contradicts the true Christian God who is eternal (Deut 33:27) and who created the cosmos. Ultimately, our Christian God is infinitely more powerful than the mormon version of a god.

The mormon god was granted power unto him by his own god.
Our God IS power and NO ONE gave him power.
Our God is “I AM” (Ex 3:14)
Our God is truly the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8)

When I was talking to my Mormon friends and they finally revealed to me that they believed they could become gods of their own planets, a heated discussion followed thereafter.

I couldn’t understand why they felt accepting worship from other beings would not be a grave sin, even as a “god parent” of their “spirit children”.

They claimed if they became gods, it would only bring more glory unto God the Father because God the Father would then be a God of GODS. Not just a God of humans…

But then I asked them whether their spirit children would ultimately worship THEM or worship God the Father…the answer they gave was that the children would ONLY worship them…not God the Father.

Is there anything untrue here? Or do I have the gist of it?
 
Hello,
From what I have discussed with my Mormon friends, their god is a material being (not a spirit) who was a good mormon human on another planet that achieved the state of godhood for his devotion.

This version of a god (I say “a” god because there are many, many gods according to mormon religion) directly contradicts the true Christian God who is eternal (Deut 33:27) and who created the cosmos. Ultimately, our Christian God is infinitely more powerful than the mormon version of a god.

The mormon god was granted power unto him by his own god.
Our God IS power and NO ONE gave him power.
Our God is “I AM” (Ex 3:14)
Our God is truly the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8)

When I was talking to my Mormon friends and they finally revealed to me that they believed they could become gods of their own planets, a heated discussion followed thereafter.

I couldn’t understand why they felt accepting worship from other beings would not be a grave sin, even as a “god parent” of their “spirit children”.

They claimed if they became gods, it would only bring more glory unto God the Father because God the Father would then be a God of GODS. Not just a God of humans…

But then I asked them whether their spirit children would ultimately worship THEM or worship God the Father…the answer they gave was that the children would ONLY worship them…not God the Father.

Is there anything untrue here? Or do I have the gist of it?
PuerCuriosus,

Latter-day Saints do believe that Heavenly Father, who is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, did live on an earth at one time eons ago just as Jesus Christ lived on this earth as God the Son, with a body. Latter-day Saints are taught that when we were spirits living in pre-mortal life, we viewed gaining a body as a tremendous step in our progression as we saw Heavenly Father’s glorious, resurrected body and His supreme joy.

Some Latter-day Saints take a couple of statements of Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snow and use those statements to support a belief that is somewhat like the second statement in your first sentence, but others take the full teaching of Joseph Smith in what is called his “King Follett Discourse” and consider that Heavenly Father “lived on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did” and thus was perfect when He lived on an earth, just as Jesus Christ was perfect when He lived on this earth before He was resurrected, and that both were also perfect in their pre-mortal lives. So that would of course have a significantly different meaning than what your friends speculated.

As an active member all of my life, I have not heard the topic discussed very much at all, but in reading the King Follett Discourse I always concluded that Heavenly Father lived in perfection when He lived on an earth, and have heard that as the belief of some other members. They (we) do believe that Heavenly Father desires to share His power and glory through our becoming one with Him through the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, and through learning to be completely selfless and infinitely loving and patient. Those qualities are some of the major reasons for living this life with all its trials, sorrows, and difficulties that lead toward becoming more compassionate and more patient.

Latter-day Saints believe “I AM” is Jehovah, who is God the Son, Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah whom the Jewish leaders rejected when He lived on earth.

Latter-day Saints believe both God the Father and Jesus Christ are “Alpha and Omega”.

As to whether becoming like Jesus Christ means “becoming a god of a planet earth”, that is commonly believed by some Latter-day Saints, but what that means in terms of how it compares with this earth and how it compares with our relationship on this earth with Heavenly Father, is just guessing since we don’t know and it is not doctrinally stated one way or the other. We do know that progressing through repentance and sanctification through the power of the Holy Ghost are extremely important and vital, and that there will be a nearly infinite amount of learning, growing and preparing to do in the next life, in order to become “one” with Jesus Christ and to share in His glory.

I think it is clear from Latter-day Saint teachings that those who do share in becoming “one” with Jesus Christ will continue to worship Heavenly Father, and will never reach a point of not needing and wanting and expecting to worship Him, so that’s where my thoughts go when thinking about the kinds of things your last few comments explored. I look at the concept of having “spirit children” as that they will worship Heavenly Father just as we do on this earth, but it isn’t a settled doctrine one way or the other how those relationships will be, and we don’t know enough about it to do more than speculate.

Have a good day.
 
When I was talking to my Mormon friends and they finally revealed to me that they believed they could become gods of their own planets, a heated discussion followed thereafter.

I couldn’t understand why they felt accepting worship from other beings would not be a grave sin, even as a “god parent” of their “spirit children”.

They claimed if they became gods, it would only bring more glory unto God the Father because God the Father would then be a God of GODS. Not just a God of humans…

But then I asked them whether their spirit children would ultimately worship THEM or worship God the Father…the answer they gave was that the children would ONLY worship them…not God the Father.

Is there anything untrue here? Or do I have the gist of it?
Hello, I was raised Mormon and spent 35 of my 46 years as a baptized, tithe-paying church member. I’ve had this very same conversation with my dad several times over the years (he’s a former bishop). The topic sometimes comes up whenever I happen to be visiting my folks on a Monday and I’m invited to participate in Family Home Evening with he and my mom, just like old times. My folks are both fourth generation Mormons, going back to the first wave of English converts who crossed the plains with wagons and handcarts. On certain of these FHE visits, my dad happened to teach about the “The Plan of Salvation”. The former (and current) Mormons posting here will know exactly what that is. The easel and poster board comes out and dad draws a picture depicting the Plan: first, there’s a circle (or square) depicting the Pre-Earth Life, a squiggly line representing the Veil, another circle representing our Earth Life, another for the Spirit World (divided into Paradise and Spirit Prison), something about the Resurrection and Judgement, and finally three circles (typically ordered vertically) with the words Celestial Kingdom, Terrestrial Kingdom, and Telestial Kingdom written within. Sometimes, a circle or box off to the side is included to represent Outer Darkness. This kind of graphic is typical of Mormon lessons found within church manuals, missionary discussions, etc. Here’s an example of a fairly fancy one: scripturecompanion.com/images/Plan_of_Salvation2.jpg

Dad usually teaches each step of the Plan as he draws the circles. By the time he gets to the Celestial Kingdom, he goes into the standard tripartite division thought to exist within that kingdom and then spends the rest of his lesson focusing on what it means to be exalted, i.e. to inherit the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom (earned by receiving the ordinances of baptism, temple endowment, and temple marriage and enduring to the end). Dad’s eyes begin to mist, his voice takes on an awed tone, and he describes what he fully expects to happen to him if he remains faithful. He will be deified, be tutored by God in the creation of worlds, will be given his own corner of the universe to manage, and will populate those worlds with his own spirit children created with my mom who will worship and glorify him, just as we worship and glorify our own Father in Heaven. When asked how those spirit children will be created, dad says “we don’t know; that knowledge has yet to be revealed.”

I’m sure Tony888 (and as ParkerD just indicated) will say that this is all speculation based on doctrine. The funny thing is, when my dad teaches this lesson, he bears his testimony with tears in his eyes stating that he knows these promises are sure and available to anyone who wishes to avail themselves of the opportunity. He states that he acquired this knowledge by adhering to the prophets’ words and that the Holy Spirit has born personal witness to him time and again that everything he just said is the truth. I’d love to get my dad and Tony888 in a room together so Tony can tell my dad that he’s only speculating based on doctrine. Clearly, my dad’s testimony did not emerge out of a vacuum. Any good Mormon bases what he believes and prays about on the teachings of LDS prophets.

How 'bout it Tony (and ParkerD)? Has the spirit born witness to you that the belief that faithful Mormons will not create their own worlds and populate them with spirit children of their own is merely speculation based on doctrine? As guys keep saying, every Mormon is required to verify the teachings of the prophets through the witness of the Holy Spirit. My dad and many other Mormon men of my generation and earlier (mission companions, uncles, grandfathers, church leaders and teachers) who I know personally have done just that and have the exact same testimony that they will be world-creating, spirit-populating gods in their own right. Whose testimony really is spirit-based in this regard? Theirs or yours? Or have you not yet prayed about this matter? If not, perhaps you should. You, too, can be the god of some corner of the universe, with your own spirit children praying to you as their Heavenly Father on their very own earth that you create yourself through the power of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
 
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