Views on Mormonism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter walnutleviosa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There was NO baptism, for the dead in the early Church. Name the exact bible passage that actually says they baptized DEAD PEOPLE!
1 Corinthians 29:15

The Corinthians were familiar with the practice of performing baptisms for the dead. In Paul’s discourse on the resurrection, he explained to them that if there were no resurrection, there would be no reason for doing baptisms for the dead. Paul certainly would not have used an unknown or false practice to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection. Here are two English translations:

KJV: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Cor. 15:29)

NIV: Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptised for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all why are people baptised for them? (1 Cor. 15:29)
 
Hi, Mtolympus,

While Hosemonkey expressed this thought in different terms, the conclusion we have drawn is quite the same: getting a definitive answer on a doctrine is difficult at best. Additionally, when one views the requirement for plural marriage as necessary to avoid damnation (per J. Smith) and then when statehood is in the balance, this divine ordinance is effectively voided - is it any wonder that there is more than one skeptical view to this entire process.

God bless
Hi tqualey,

To really understand this you would need to understand revelation and the reason for having a living Prophet. Revelations may be for a specific period of time and the purpose for various revelations are seldom if ever given. However, one might reason that plural marriage was needed when the LDS were a small isolated group with many more women than men. It certainly wouldn’t make sense now that there are 14 million members. Abraham and Jacob were prophets of God with more than one wife. This also was for a limited time in biblical history. The twelve tribes of Israel came from four different mothers.
 
bz5

LDS.org on Abortion:
Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church.
Context,context,context!

Here is the rest of the page:
Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church.
Additional Information
In today’s society, abortion has become a common practice, defended by deceptive arguments. Latter-day prophets have denounced abortion, referring to the Lord’s declaration, “Thou shalt not . . . kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). Their counsel on the matter is clear: Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. Church members who encourage an abortion in any way may be subject to Church discipline.
Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer.
When a child is conceived out of wedlock, the best option is for the mother and father of the child to marry and work toward establishing an eternal family relationship. If a successful marriage is unlikely, they should place the child for adoption, preferably through LDS Family Services (see “Adoption”).
—See True to the Faith (2004), 4-5
 
1 Corinthians 29:15

The Corinthians were familiar with the practice of performing baptisms for the dead. In Paul’s discourse on the resurrection, he explained to them that if there were no resurrection, there would be no reason for doing baptisms for the dead. Paul certainly would not have used an unknown or false practice to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection. Here are two English translations:

KJV: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Cor. 15:29)

NIV: Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptised for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all why are people baptised for them? (1 Cor. 15:29)
Paul does not associate himself with those who are baptised for the dead. Notice he says “they” not “we”.
 
Abortion at any time is murder, if one thinks that life begins at conception. Be it a rape, incest, or whatever you propose as a potential exception. If one lives their life as a life that is totally submitted to the will of God, and if one believes in the 10 Commandments, to argue otherwise is self-deception. And if one believes in Jesus Christ, and takes His word as truth, woe to them who lead others astray.
Peace and God bless, and may Jesus Christ be at the center of your life.
 
1 Corinthians 29:15

The Corinthians were familiar with the practice of performing baptisms for the dead. In Paul’s discourse on the resurrection, he explained to them that if there were no resurrection, there would be no reason for doing baptisms for the dead. Paul certainly would not have used an unknown or false practice to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection. Here are two English translations:

KJV: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Cor. 15:29)

NIV: Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptised for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all why are people baptised for them? (1 Cor. 15:29)
It is by no means obvious that to be baptized for the dead means to be baptized as a proxy for a deceased persons. Not obvious. There’s a case to be made for that interpretation, to be sure, but it does not hold a monopoly on plausibility. For instance there is a way of reading it that actually implies a repudiation of such a possibility. Since the verse in Greek contains no punctuation, one could translate it this way:

*Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptised? [Is it] for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all why are people baptised? for them?
*
In this way, the verse could be read as presupposing the absurdity of such a baptism, and using that in the argument. While this is an admittedly offbeat reading, it has some real scholarly support, as was argued in a very intelligent doctoral dissertation by Bernard Foschini in 1951.

But even if we take the text as it stand in most translation (and I do incline to stick with the standard ways of translating it) there are still score of questions a serious person can ask: Does Paul refer to Christian baptism or to oblations in general? If he means baptism, does “for” even mean “for the sake of”? If it it does, does the benefit of such baptisms for dead people consist in them receiving the actual grace of baptism themselves? I could write a pretty long list of meaningful difficulties that exegetes have found in interpreting this text. That is not to say the Mormon position is not defensible, only that it does have an automatic claim to be preferred over others. Even the unlikely argument that Paul is speaking with disapproval of a non-Christian practice is a plausible contender. It would logically fit his argument if he is criticizing the practitioners of it for hypocrisy, saying something like, “They deny the resurrection, but their own practices make no sense apart from that.”
 
My LDS wife divorced me stating that is was due to our ‘religious differences’ and she was under full guidance of her bishop.

Now I fully understand that a bishop WOULD NOT give such guidance in accordance with the CHI and I really would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during some of their conversations. I believe she remained in good standing with the church during the civil divorce and she is now actively looking for her LDS Temple-worthy husband.
You and your wife sound like two wonderful people in a heart breaking situation. An LDS bishop will not encourage divorce except perhaps in a very abusive situation. A member may chose divorce if there doesn’t seem to be a better solution. I know this is different than Catholic teaching on divorce. However, the LDS teaching is more focused on fidelity in marriage and no sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. What I meant to say was that the church will not change their moral standards. One recent example of this was the suspension of a BYU basketball star for violating his honor code agreement of no sexual relations outside of marriage.
 
You and your wife sound like two wonderful people in a heart breaking situation. An LDS bishop will not encourage divorce except perhaps in a very abusive situation. A member may chose divorce if there doesn’t seem to be a better solution. I know this is different than Catholic teaching on divorce. However, the LDS teaching is more focused on fidelity in marriage and no sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. What I meant to say was that the church will not change their moral standards. One recent example of this was the suspension of a BYU basketball star for violating his honor code agreement of no sexual relations outside of marriage.
Catholics don’t divorce, that is the Church’s teaching on that.
 
An LDS bishop will not encourage divorce except perhaps in a very abusive situation.
ahhh, no. I was counselor to two bishops in the 1980s. Both of them encouraged women to divorce “unworthy” husbands (aka non-members who refused to convert). They both cited the necessity of an LDS woman to be temple-married in order to achieve exaltation. As a result, several LDS women filed for civil divorce from their unworthy husbands so they could seek a temple-worthy husband.

The family-centered church? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
Paul does not associate himself with those who are baptised for the dead. Notice he says “they” not “we”.
However, the term “they” does not necessarily disassociate Paul from the practice. The thing that associates Paul is the fact that he used “baptism for the dead” as and example to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection.
 
However, the term “they” does not necessarily disassociate Paul from the practice. The thing that associates Paul is the fact that he used “baptism for the dead” as and example to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection.
Actually the opposite, he asked “because of the resurrection why do they baptize for the dead?”. Paul was saying that they’re practice was in vain.

Also, Jesus stated elsewhere that God is God of the living.
 
Hi, Mtolympus,

Please go back to post #773 where mwok provides the context to back up the previous statement.

The Catholic Church condemns abortion - period. Essentially the reasons given are most of those already recognized in society, except for sex selection. Now, as Planned Parenthood can demonstrate - any reason and at any tme the pregnancy can effect the ‘health of the mother’ so an abortion is just fine with them - and definitely adds to their financial bottom line.

Yes, LDS is pro-chastity and had put out some really great material that is teen-focused and teen-friendly. The group (and especially their graphics department) is to be congratulated for this excellent work! And, yes, those who are chaste are less likely to be contemplating an abortion. But… none of that really addresses the issue about the Mormon organization really going along and agreeing to abortion (back to the context of #773). Not to put too fine a point on it, but it does appear that you really side-stepped the issue with this chastity item… 😉

What I would appreciate you doing is going back to #773 and commenting on this context.

Thank you and God bless
The LDS church is pro-chastity which itself is anti-abortion.
 
Hi, Mtolympus,

I think this is why there are so many difficulties that people of good faith encounter when trying to interpret scripture on their own. What is really needed is another way to look at what it is that is actually going on. And, this would be a way that is much closer to the source and not invented in the 1820’s.

Remember the Canon of Sacred Scrpture - the Bible - was not developed until about 400AD - so, we have to wonder just did those early Catholics use to keep their focus on Christ and sprad the Gospel. The answer is Sacred Tradition (as opposed to the traditions of men).

Then take a look at the history of the Catholic Church from about 33AD to 500AD where the writings of the Early Church Fathers - especially in combating the heresies that sprang up with a certain frequency - are so important.

Neither Sacred Tradition or the Early Church Fathers have any favorable comments about ‘baptism of the dead’. Rather, like Paul, this practice is seen as outside the teachings of Christ and His Church. Actually, even with all of the divisions amongst the 40,000+ Protestant groups - none of them to my knowledge has anything like a ‘baptism for the dead’. I submit, this is idea that was totally imagined and developed by Joseph Smith and his followers.

God bless
However, the term “they” does not necessarily disassociate Paul from the practice. The thing that associates Paul is the fact that he used “baptism for the dead” as and example to illustrate the truthfulness of the resurrection.
 
Hi, Mwok,

Excellent posts … 👍

God bless
Actually the opposite, he asked “because of the resurrection why do they baptize for the dead?”. Paul was saying that they’re practice was in vain.

Also, Jesus stated elsewhere that God is God of the living.
 
Bz5

We name our children after “dead” saints, yes. They are our heroes in the faith but who said they were DEAD? Are they not the CLOUD of WITNESSES? (see John Martignoni’s website) They are more ALIVE than ever!

Re: abortion fight

Catholic laypeople have been at the forefront fighting abortion since day 1. I seem to remember the LDS girls I worked with said abortion was allowed in cases of rape… ???

One of the most beautiful efforts to help the post-abortive women (and men need healing too) is RACHEL’S VINEYARD. Countless groups worldwide reach out to unwed moms - Catholic Charities, Knights of Columbus to mention 2 have spent thousands of man hours & millions of dollars in this endeavor.

I heard the former Texan abortion clinic manager speak in my city last spring & she has joined the true Church mostly because of the Catholics witnessing at the fence of her clinic for months. David will eventually defeat the planned parenthood juggernaut Goliath.

Christian denoms have failed in interpretation of scripture (keep in mind the 5th Commandment & sin of Onan) & thereby allow abortion even if limited & artificial birth control (some bc causes very early abortions just the same). Catholicism is one group for sure that historically that allows none of it - maybe the Orthodox included - See the brilliant 'HUMANE VITAE" by Pope Paul VI. These who would rail at Holy Mother Church for standing FIRM need to ask one question in their heart: “What would Jesus do?”
Context,context,context!

Here is the rest of the page:
We’ve been through this. I"ll ask you the same question I asked another who didn’t answer it. Do you think it’s worse to recognize the horror of abortion and still allow it at all, or to really believe the fetus is nothing but a bunch of cells and let a woman have free ‘choice’ over what to do with it?
 
You and your wife sound like two wonderful people in a heart breaking situation. An LDS bishop will not encourage divorce except perhaps in a very abusive situation. A member may chose divorce if there doesn’t seem to be a better solution. I know this is different than Catholic teaching on divorce. However, the LDS teaching is more focused on fidelity in marriage and no sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. What I meant to say was that the church will not change their moral standards. One recent example of this was the suspension of a BYU basketball star for violating his honor code agreement of no sexual relations outside of marriage.
Mtolympus, Catholic teaching is as Jesus taught, and that is a person who divorces and marries again is committing adultery. How does the LDS teaching on fidelity and marriage align to what Jesus taught?

Blueadept has posted that he is remaing faithful to his marriage vows, and will not be remarrying, yet his wife is actively seeking another to marry. Who is following the teachings of Jesus, and why?
 
It is by no means obvious that to be baptized for the dead means to be baptized as a proxy for a deceased persons. Not obvious. There’s a case to be made for that interpretation, to be sure, but it does not hold a monopoly on plausibility. For instance there is a way of reading it that actually implies a repudiation of such a possibility. Since the verse in Greek contains no punctuation, one could translate it this way:

*Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptised? [Is it] for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all why are people baptised? for them?
*
In this way, the verse could be read as presupposing the absurdity of such a baptism, and using that in the argument. While this is an admittedly offbeat reading, it has some real scholarly support, as was argued in a very intelligent doctoral dissertation by Bernard Foschini in 1951.

But even if we take the text as it stand in most translation (and I do incline to stick with the standard ways of translating it) there are still score of questions a serious person can ask: Does Paul refer to Christian baptism or to oblations in general? If he means baptism, does “for” even mean “for the sake of”? If it it does, does the benefit of such baptisms for dead people consist in them receiving the actual grace of baptism themselves? I could write a pretty long list of meaningful difficulties that exegetes have found in interpreting this text. That is not to say the Mormon position is not defensible, only that it does have an automatic claim to be preferred over others. Even the unlikely argument that Paul is speaking with disapproval of a non-Christian practice is a plausible contender. It would logically fit his argument if he is criticizing the practitioners of it for hypocrisy, saying something like, “They deny the resurrection, but their own practices make no sense apart from that.”
The Mormon response is, of course…they are so much more blessed than everyone else because they have revelation which clarifies this for everyone…all you have to do is believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and you’ll be blessed too.
 
Yes, God allowed the OT prophets to have multiple wives. Jesus transforms & cements everything into place. The glorious 7th Covenant, which is of Christ alone, is pure perfection; He fulfills the previous 6 covenants of the OT. What is concealed in the Old (Testament) is revealed in the New (Testament). He blows the doors off everything else.

For LDS to allow plural marriage is a giant step backwards ignoring or rejecting an important principle relating to Christ: I AM the Bridegroom, you (the Church) are the Bride. Jesus could/would never have more that ONE BRIDE (contrary to the drivel of the DUH Vinci Code etc.). It is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE. Jesus cannot “seven” himself (see Dr. Scott Hahn). That torpedoes the concept of Plural Marriage.

Doctrine & Covenants, Section 101, 1835 Edition had this to say early in LDS history:

“4 All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare the we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again…”

This was deleted in the Doctrine & Covenants 1876 Edition.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top