Views on Mormonism?

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JHow said:
I thought the original prohibition was on “hot drinks” ?
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That’s what I was told a few years ago on another forum, when the subject of no coffee or tea came up. It seemed to most non-Mormons that it was due to caffeine, especially since they also refrain from drinking colas and other cold caffeinated drinks. Then, I asked them why it was OK for them to drink hot chocolate (or even bouillon) that they seem to be obsessed with, if it just referred to ‘hot drinks’. They couldn’t really give me an answer, other than, “we don’t really know”. One of them even tried to suggest that it was because when the WoW was written, hot chocolate wasn’t really available yet (false) and Joseph Smith didn’t include it in the list. I guess God didn’t think it was as bad as that evil coffee and tea. :rolleyes:

Personally, I think it’s because the women were the ones that drank coffee and tea. When Emma (and the other women) gave Joe a hard time about all of his drinking buddies sitting around, being obnoxious in her house (or wherever they happened to be) every night, his response was to ban drinking alcohol, to shut the women up, and included coffee & tea to thumb his nose at the women. 🤷
 
Hi tqualey,
there is definitely LDS community pressure to dress nicely and modestly. While some people see this as a negative, it reminds me of my Catholic youth, wearing a school uniform weekdays and a clip-on tie on Sundays. When young, I liked it when the dress code relaxed. As an adult, I better appreciate the purpose.

I’m with you in that I see no problems with alcohol being inherently evil. I don’t drink but use wine for cooking and keep some beer in the refridgerator for guests. Not drinking alcohol is a covenant I’ve made with God.
tqualey said:
Hi, Tony888,

This may be a first … but … I am in agreement with you concerning dressing nicely as a sign of respect. And, while it is not the only way to show respect - and reverance - I did not think you were trying to be all inclusive in your post.

And, while, “…wine gladdens the heart…” Psalm 104, Ecclesiastes 10 and as you know, Christ used real wine (as opposed to grape juice) that He miraclously transformed into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity - abuse of alcohol (drunkeness) is a problem both morally and physically. So, I think the word that most of us work with is: moderation although voluntarily abstaining from anything that is lawful is appropriate. That would be up to the individual - as opposed to the group.

Respect is good… 🙂

God bless

Search ResultsPsalm 104:15 wine that gladdens the heart of … - Online Parallel Biblebible.cc/psalms/104-15.htmCached - Similar
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That he may make the face cheerful with oil: and that bread may strengthen man’s heart. Darby Bible Translation And wine which gladdeneth the heart of man; …
Ecclesiastes 10:19 A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life …bible.cc/ecclesiastes/10-19.htmCached - Similar
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Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything. … King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) … Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible …
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Telstar,
Just because some members don’t understand all the purpose or motivation behind specific doctrines doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Aren’t Catholics also taught to be obedient to authority rather than ‘do as you wish’ until you comprehend the true purpose

the WoW is about treating your body as a temple, and avoiding addictive substances. We are hardley perfect in following this guidance (too much fast food)
Telstar said:
That’s what I was told a few years ago on another forum, when the subject of no coffee or tea came up. It seemed to most non-Mormons that it was due to caffeine, especially since they also refrain from drinking colas and other cold caffeinated drinks. Then, I asked them why it was OK for them to drink hot chocolate (or even bouillon) that they seem to be obsessed with, if it just referred to ‘hot drinks’. They couldn’t really give me an answer, other than, “we don’t really know”. One of them even tried to suggest that it was because when the WoW was written, hot chocolate wasn’t really available yet (false) and Joseph Smith didn’t include it in the list. I guess God didn’t think it was as bad as that evil coffee and tea. :rolleyes:

Personally, I think it’s because the women were the ones that drank coffee and tea. When Emma (and the other women) gave Joe a hard time about all of his drinking buddies sitting around, being obnoxious in her house (or wherever they happened to be) every night, his response was to ban drinking alcohol, to shut the women up, and included coffee & tea to thumb his nose at the women. 🤷
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JHow said:
I thought the original prohibition was on “hot drinks” ?
Click to expand...
Yes it was. That’s why I said “official interpretation” because the official version in the Doctrine and Covenants is so broad. It also says that barley is useful for “mild drinks”, which if you visit a NOM board you can see a fair bit of discussion on whether this includes beer.
 
Tony888 said:
Telstar,
Just because some members don’t understand all the purpose or motivation behind specific doctrines doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Aren’t Catholics also taught to be obedient to authority rather than ‘do as you wish’ until you comprehend the true purpose

the WoW is about treating your body as a temple, and** avoiding addictive substances**. We are hardley perfect in following this guidance (too much fast food)
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If this is the case against coffee and tea then the proscription should include other caffeinated foods and beverages, such as soda, energy drinks and chocolate.
 
The Blood of Christ, the Consecrated Wine is the sign of the NEW Covenant. My daughter’s LDS friends tried to tell her the “wine” was actually grape juice. NO WAY. For one thing, ancient peoples had no way to refrigerate grape juice and due to the extreme heat, it would mold & spoil. At that time the only way to preserve the “fruit of the vine” , any VINTNER will tell you, is via FERMENTATION which during aging creates alcohol while stored in airtight animal skins (bags). I believe they did not determine how to create wine without alcohol, therefore anytime they crushed grapes once a year @ harvest, they made wine or got nothing at all.

If you do not drink my Blood (The Fruit of the Vine) you shall not have life in you (Eucharist or Thanks Offering). See CD on the 4th Cup by Dr. Scott Hahn. The Passover has the 4 cups the Jews drank: The Blessing Cup, 3rd cup Sang the Little Hallel & the Big Hallel. Jesus did not drink the 4th cup until on the Cross.

Also, in the Book of Sirach “Does he really live who lacks the wine which was created FOR HIS JOY???”

Out of the Bible we get wine: good for the stomach, to be drunk in joyful conditions, It is fruit of the wine and work of human hands, it is our spiritual drink, MOST IMPORTANTLY; is the Blood of Christ which transforms the accident of wine into the body blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ - it looks like wine but it is the Lord’s Precious BLOOD

Jesus’ first miracle due to His Mother’s request “Do as He tells you” = Changes the water to WINE not grape juice and the BEST wine at the Wedding celebration - Jesus always give US HIS BEST!!! 😃
 
Cora Evans Story was beautiful - REDUCED me tears. THANK YOU SO MUCH!
 
Tony888 said:
Telstar,
Just because some members don’t understand all the purpose or motivation behind specific doctrines doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Aren’t Catholics also taught to be obedient to authority rather than ‘do as you wish’ until you comprehend the true purpose

the WoW is about treating your body as a temple, and avoiding addictive substances. We are hardley perfect in following this guidance (too much fast food)
Click to expand...
Being obedient to authority in the Catholic Church really doesn’t involve banning people from eating or drinking anything in particular, forever. Everything is fine to eat or drink, as long as we use a little self restraint and do it in moderation. It’s a way for us to teach ourselves to know when to stop. If you’ve never had something because it’s ‘banned’, you’ll never really miss it, so the actual effects of the ‘sacrifice’ are nonexistent. The only thing even similar in Catholicism, is the practice of not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, but that’s a form of abstinence that’s only required one day a week. At other times during the year, we are still obliged to practice some type of penance for our sins on Fridays. Even when we give something up as a form of penance (like all during Lent), then we really are making a true sacrifice, because normally we are not restricted from having or doing it. Jesus even called the Pharisees hypocrites for their insistence on following their strict dietary laws, while ignoring the more important things, like really worshiping God and caring for the poor.
Matthew 15:[10] And having called together the multitudes unto him, he said to them: Hear ye and understand. [11] Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Joseph Smith was trying to make his religion more like the old Jewish practices that Christians abandoned in order to follow the New Law of Jesus. He hated all Christian churches and didn’t want his new religion to be anything like them, because he thought they were all wrong. That’s why he created the WoW and brought back the ideas about the Jewish ’ temple’. Unfortunately, he didn’t have any clue what any of those things really meant, or why they were done, so he made it all up as he went along. The LDS Temple is nothing at all like a Jewish Temple, but is much more like Masonic temples, including all of it’s rites and rituals which mock Christianity.
 
TheExorcist said:
Yes it was. That’s why I said “official interpretation” because the official version in the Doctrine and Covenants is so broad. It also says that barley is useful for “mild drinks”, which if you visit a NOM board you can see a fair bit of discussion on whether this includes beer.
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Wasn’t the WoW just a suggestion at first, much less strict than now?
 
I understand that Mormons only accept the Bible “as it is correctly translated.” (One missionary told me, for example, that Matthew 16:18 must be a mistranslation). Joseph Smith started a new translation of the Bible, did he not? Why do you suppose, if it were God’s idea, and not Joseph Smith’s, that no other LDS prophet finished the job? Also, would it be hard for you LDS members to accept a new Bible translation, one that perhaps made clearer peculiarly LDS teachings?
 
telstar,
I was talking about the need for obedience before there is understanding. So why do you try make it a compettion, or compare LDS to Pharisees (really?)

Not sure why you posted Matthew 15. LDS fully agree with the importance of said passage…

I urge you to study more on the Masons - they are certainly not anti-Christian since most members are Protestant. Incidently the Protestants were not fond of JS and the LDS church

bz5
It may shock you but LDS and all Protestant denominations are fine with Matthew 16:18
We just have a different interpretation
 
Tony888 said:
bz5
It may shock you but LDS and all Protestant denominations are fine with Matthew 16:18
We just have a different interpretation
Click to expand...
Why would I be shocked? I am interested in an answer to my question, though.
 
Hi Michelle. Thanks for kind words about my post. When it comes to understanding God and religion, “wir sind alle bettler” (we’re all beggars) ~ Martin Luther. I am so thankful that God worked through His words and I came to truly understand, accept, and love “the gospel.” It really is good news and the friends that I have that converted from LDS also feel the lift of the weight of the law. As explained in scripture, the law is necessary to bring about the need for forgiveness from God and from each other (through love which is from God anyway). That is my only worry for your daughter. She is surrounded by good people who believe deeply in God. It could be worse. It was because their culture is so comfortably focused on seeking God that I eventually found my way. Had I not had a reason to spend so much time in God’s word, I may not have come to love it, then eventually understand it.

The rules: shopping on Sunday, jewelry, coffee (Word of Wisdom), clothing, etc., is all “law.” “;and as many as have sinned under the law, shall be judged by the law.” Rom: 2:12. My translation of that verse: If we subject ourselves to a “code of conduct” that pleases God, we will ultimately fail in keeping that law. LDS founder Joseph Smith was very heavily influenced by Methodist revivals in the area. He admits that of all the denominations, he preferred them the most. He studied with them for years. Methodism proclaims a “method” for achieving God’s favor. Smith was also focused heavily on the OT writings, also known as “the Law and the Prophets.” In fact, he proposes that the Native Americans were really descendents of a Hebrew group that were led out of Israel and reached the new world. In short, he was very immersed in the idea of keeping God happy through proper behavior and “law.” All religions have guidelines for descent behavior, after Christ did not come to replace the law, but to fulfill it. We are all guilty because the law stands and is still valid. The judge has already made the verdict, the case is closed. There is a valid law (Commandments for instance) and we are unable to keep it (concupiscence). The LDS, in my opinion, believe very much in pious living and put too much faith in their ability (with the help of God) to keep the law.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the new beliefs your daughter has adopted. They are, for the most part, aligned with the virtues. Being “well covered” in church is a kind act for the men in the congregation. There is enough temptation all around us, as it is. It’s nice when the pews do not contain so many distractions. I would instead worry about the guilt your daught may feel in not being able to keep the LDS “commandments” or behavioral norms or whatever we want to call what their heirarchy promulgates as behavioral guidance. Christ died for our sins; “it is finished.” Being virtuous is by grace alone, through faith alone, and is born out of the love of God. It is not something we do in order to gain something, like entrance to the highest glory of God, what the LDS call the celestial kingdom. Rooms in that part of our Father’s mansion are reserved for the most well behaved, pious LDS. What a yoke to carry! Don’t let her drift from a faith that Christ died for her sins. The law has a way of causing us to stumble away from that fact.
 
Tony888 said:
telstar,
I was talking about the need for obedience before there is understanding. So why do you try make it a compettion, or compare LDS to Pharisees (really?)
Click to expand...
OK, tony. Then, could you point out even one of those instances in the Catholic Church that might exemplify your statement? And yes, I am comparing the LDS observance of their dietary laws to the same kinds of superficial laws that Jesus was referring to when He was calling the Pharisees hypocrites. It’s not what goes into the mouth that is evil, but what comes out of the mouth. In other words, it’s not the things that we might eat that make us evil, but the evil words that we speak that are not from God (just in case your interpretation isn’t the same as mine).

I’m surprised that you’d think the LDS and the Catholic Church wouldn’t be in a ‘competition’ for souls. Haven’t you heard? There’s a war going on in Heaven, to win souls for God.
Tony888 said:
Not sure why you posted Matthew 15. LDS fully agree with the importance of said passage…
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Read it, think about it, pray about it. I’m sure it will come to you, eventually.
Tony888 said:
I urge you to study more on the Masons - they are certainly not anti-Christian since most members are Protestant. Incidently the Protestants were not fond of JS and the LDS church
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I don’t need to ‘study’ the Masons any further. I’ve read a lot about them and their rituals. If you really want me to be even more specific, their rituals are much more than just anti-Christian, they’re actually more anti-Catholic than anything else, which would explain why they’re so easily accepted by most Protestants and LDS. Is that better?
Tony888 said:
bz5
It may shock you but LDS and all Protestant denominations are fine with Matthew 16:18
We just have a different interpretation
Click to expand...
This is my shocked face: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/Telstars/Smilies/huh2.gif
 
Tony888 said:
telstar,
I was talking about the need for obedience before there is understanding. So why do you try make it a compettion, or compare LDS to Pharisees (really?)

Not sure why you posted Matthew 15. LDS fully agree with the importance of said passage…

I urge you to study more on the Masons - they are certainly not anti-Christian since most members are Protestant. Incidently the Protestants were not fond of JS and the LDS church

bz5
It may shock you but LDS and all Protestant denominations are fine with Matthew 16:18
We just have a different interpretation
Click to expand...
I am shocked that you define Protestant denominations and LDS as separate entities. I am further shocked that you then speak for “we”. Am I to understand that you speak for all LDS and all Protestants? This is shocking.

I also find it difficult to understand that to suggest that you are “fine” with it is to say…

Well the 10 commandments say thou shalt not kill and we just don’t see abortion and birth control as murder or violating that commandment. We just have a different interpretation of it.

Pelagius, Arius and the like also had different interpretations. It is all about interpretation and understanding that cause someone to practice one way or another.
 
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