Views on Mormonism?

[tqualey]

Hi, RebeccaJ,

Thanks!

God bless

The Crickets and the Seagulls

The pioneers were eager to harvest their spring crops, but late spring frosts killed some of the crops, and a drought killed more of them. Then crickets came and began eating everything that was left. The pioneers did everything they could think of to fight these insects. Some people tried to frighten the crickets away by making loud noises; others tried to shake them off the plants. Some chased the crickets into piles of straw and set fire to them, and some chased the crickets into ditches filled with water to drown them. No matter what the pioneers did, however, the crickets kept coming. They were everywhere—on the trees and fences and in the houses, beds, and clothing.

The pioneers were very worried. If the crickets ate all the crops, the people would have nothing to eat and would die from starvation. For two weeks the people fought the crickets and prayed for Heavenly Father to help them. The stake president finally asked the Saints to hold a special day of fasting and prayer. Susan Noble Grant, who was sixteen years old at the time, described what then happened (display the picture of the miracle of the seagulls as you relate this account):

“The answer to our fasting and prayers came on a clear summer afternoon.

“We were fearfully alarmed, for all of a sudden, circling above our … fields, appeared great flocks of screaming gulls. ‘A new plague is descending upon us,’ was our first thought. Down the gray and white birds swooped in hundreds, then in thousands, uttering shrill … cries as they pounced upon [the crickets]. … Then a strange thing happened. As soon as they had gorged themselves, they sailed over to a nearby stream, took a few sips of water, disgorged [vomited] and returned to join their screaming companions. All our people stood in wonderment! Our prayers were answered” (quoted in Grant, p. 446).

The seagulls came back day after day for about three weeks. They ate crickets until all the crickets were gone. The Saints knew their prayers had been answered in a miraculous way. They were grateful that their crops and their lives had been spared.

In August 1848 the Saints had a feast to celebrate the harvest. They displayed their crops and had speeches, music, and dancing. They were grateful to Heavenly Father for helping them harvest a good crop.

…this is from a lesson that is taught to 8-11 year olds in the Mormon church.

As for whether or not you think it is a miracle…probably not, but as you can see, Mormon children to this day are taught that it was.

There are different accounts, ranging from no seagulls to isolated incidence of seagulls, but the story has been a part of Mormon folklore as long as there have been Mormons in Utah.

 

[stokemeister]

In the early 1970’s, my wife (Catholic) and myself (Mormon at the time, now happily a Catholic, too) attended my grandmother’s funeral. I was one of the pallbearers. My wife, unknowingly, wore a pants suit to the funeral (I had no clue that it was not allowed in the Mormon church) and she was made to leave the church. We had to rush home to have her change, hoping to make it back in time for the end of the funeral ceremony so I could get back to be a pallbearer. I was so angry at the time and full of resentment, but my wife, fortunately, taught me that I must forgive. Which I have done.

I second Tony888, sorry to hear your story and shame on whoever told your wife that pants suits were “not allowed” in the Mormon church, there is no such doctrine in Mormonism.

Clothing in general is a cultural thing, I personally would like to see the church lose the exclusive white shirt cultural norm. Principles are modesty, cleanliness and honor to the Almighty.

 

[stokemeister]

Mormon wards still have that clone look as far as the dress goes. This was always a hard point on the mission. “oh yes, come to church but make sure you wear the right clothes” people were already uncomfortable enough being new to the church that sometimes the “dress code” was too much

I agree. I served a mission with Cambodian refugees in the US and often felt the culture shock was distracting to the point that it shut down the growth of faith in Christ. Tragic. I have challenged such cultural norms on my blog if you are interested:

ldsartsandculture.blogspot.com/2008/06/mormons-and-their-neckties.html
ldsartsandculture.blogspot.com/2008/07/ties-should-not-be-mandatory-for-all.html
ldsartsandculture.blogspot.com/2008/07/jesus-shaves-in-latest-ensign.html

 

[TheExorcist]

I second Tony888, sorry to hear your story and shame on whoever told your wife that pants suits were “not allowed” in the Mormon church, there is no such doctrine in Mormonism.

Clothing in general is a cultural thing, I personally would like to see the church lose the exclusive white shirt cultural norm. Principles are modesty, cleanliness and honor to the Almighty.

I would be willing to bet it was cultural backlash from the late 60s/early 70s. If my wife would not give me so much trouble, I would wear colored shirts with my suit every week. Im ward chorister and I think it would give the Bp fits. As it is I showed up with 4 days growth (intending to grow it out) and he gave me static yesterday. I told one of his counselors when he starts paying me to lead the music he can dictate my physical appearance. My wife is the Primary Pres and has had a couple runs ins in the last couple months with him and we’re both about fed up with his dictatorial ways…

 

[stokemeister]

Isn’t there another faith promoting story about a Mormon wagon train traveling from Illinois to Utah that was starving and received a covey of quail in answer of their prayers (or something like that)?

Here are two quotes for the journals of Mormon pioneers describing the day:
mormonhistoricsitesfoundation.org/USA/iowa/montrose/stories/montrose2.htm
sandrabrast.blogspot.com/2011/04/quail.html

Here are Mormons discussing it in light of Hurricane Katrina:
timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/09/quail-and-the-superdome/

 

[RebeccaJ]

I would be willing to bet it was cultural backlash from the late 60s/early 70s. If my wife would not give me so much trouble, I would wear colored shirts with my suit every week. Im ward chorister and I think it would give the Bp fits. As it is I showed up with 4 days growth (intending to grow it out) and he gave me static yesterday. I told one of his counselors when he starts paying me to lead the music he can dictate my physical appearance. My wife is the Primary Pres and has had a couple runs ins in the last couple months with him and we’re both about fed up with his dictatorial ways…

TE, I worked with a devout Mormon who told me he showed up to church with four days growth every now and then in order to never be considered as a candidate for bishop.

 

[TheExorcist]

TE, I worked with a devout Mormon who told me he showed up to church with four days growth every now and then in order to never be considered as a candidate for bishop.

That is awesome, and of course will help (or would it be hurt) my cause also to not be Bishop. Our current Bp is scheduled to be released next year and so I’d like to spread that NOMish karma into the universe as much as possible.

:coffeeread:

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is awesome, and of course will help (or would it be hurt) my cause also to not be Bishop. Our current Bp is scheduled to be released next year and so I’d like to spread that NOMish karma into the universe as much as possible.

:coffeeread:

Well then, when it is closer to that time, wear a colored shirt to church, just once, but not at the same time as not being clean shaved and preferaby when the stake high council is visiting.

The old Bishop will be on his way out, so the negative fallout has a possibility of being low. While simultaneously sending out more of those I’m-not-quite-mormon-enough vibes.

 

[mtolympus]

Sorry I’m so late with this post. Just catching up on my reading from yesterdays post. About alcohol, when my daughter was sick, she took lots of Nyquil, which she use to tell me that Nyquil is loaded with alcohol. Funny isn’t it. Last night we celebrated my daughters birthday at a place called the Melting Pot. They give you 2 large pots of melted chocolate with dippers. I think the rules only apply when it is convenient. Sorry.

Have a wonderful day and thank the Lord for it’s beauty.

Michelle G 55

Hi Michelle,

Hot chocolate has never been forbidden in the Word of Wisdom. Only alcohol, tabacco, tea and coffee and illeagle drugs. Caffeinated soft drinks are never served at church functions but members can chose whether or not to drink these. I’m not sure why these were not banned but I assume it was becuase Cola drinks became popular later. Joseph Fielding Smith was an Apostle who was greatly opposed to drinking Cola drinks. Some members of the church worried that if Joseph Fielding Smith ever became President that Coca-cola and other colas would be forbidden as part of the WOW code. Smith did become President in 1972 but no changes were made.

 

[mtolympus]

While serving on the High Council in one of my talks in a Sacrament Meeting I told following true personal experience. It got quite a laugh from the congregation. The point of this story was that attending Church is more important than what you wear.

Two weeks ago my wife and I flew to Nebraska to attend my wife’s High School reunion. Before going to bed I looked in the phone book to see if there was a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in town. I found there was. I went to bed and that night I had a dream. I dreamed I was back home going to my early morning Stake High Council meeting. But, when I got to the Stake Center (church building) I realized that I had forgotten to get dressed. I also realized that it would not be appropriate to attend the High Council meeting this way! So- I started looking through all the closets in the Stake Center building to see if I could find something to wear. I couldn’t find anything and just as I was becoming totally frustrated, I woke up.

When my wife woke up, I told her I would call to see what time Sacrament Meeting started. She told me we couldn’t go.

“Why not?” I asked.

“Because,” she said, “we didn’t bring anything to wear.”

I told her: “We brought a lot more than I could find at the Stake Center!”

We dressed the best we could and went to Sacrament Meeting.

 

[stokemeister]

Hi Michelle,

Hot chocolate has never been forbidden in the Word of Wisdom. Only alcohol, tabacco, tea and coffee and illeagle drugs. Caffeinated soft drinks are never served at church functions but members can chose whether or not to drink these. I’m not sure why these were not banned but I assume it was becuase Cola drinks became popular later. Joseph Fielding Smith was an Apostle who was greatly opposed to drinking Cola drinks. Some members of the church worried that if Joseph Fielding Smith ever became President that Coca-cola and other colas would be forbidden as part of the WOW code. Smith did become President in 1972 but no changes were made.

I disagree with my LDS friend, alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee or illegal drugs are not explicitly forbidden in the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom although those substances have certainly come to be the official interpretation and current standard. Caffeinated soft drinks are often served at church functions as many are potlucks. I would say the church goes out of its way to not take a position on it specifically but instead focuses on the principles of good health, proper care for the body, and abstinence from addictive substances. I have never heard of members worrying about colas being forbidden with a change in presidency, although different apostles certainly have had different personal opinions on the issue but the church takes no position on it.
fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Cola_drinks_and_caffeine

As a public health professional seeing the problems associated with obesity I would certainly say there is ‘wisdom’ in the counsel and practice of abstaining from cola products though. So a tip of the hat to those who choose that path. But a wag of the finger if they turn their personal conviction into a sermon to others or otherwise claim it as the doctrine of the church.

In general the cola question is such a fringe issue that anyone who gets caught up arguing about it has certainly lost sight of the essence of the gospel.

 

[mtolympus]

In general the cola question is such a fringe issue that anyone who gets caught up arguing about it has certainly lost sight of the essence of the gospel.

I agree, however this whole tread has been about discussing LDS fringe issues.

I disagree with my LDS friend, alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee or illegal drugs are not explicitly forbidden in the revelation known as the Word of Wisdom although those substances have certainly come to be the official interpretation and current standard.

The revelation known as the Word of Wisdom (Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants) was given not by commandment but for “a principle with a promise.” This revelation is very broad and if used as a guide has many health benefits. Later on, the official interpretation and current standard became a principle of obedience. This principle excludes alcohol, tabacco, tea, coffee and illegle drugs. If you tell your bishop in a temple recommend interview you are living the WOW, you are considered in compliance if you do not use these substances. The spirit of the WOW of course is to follow the revelation as a health guide.

Caffeinated soft drinks are often served at church functions as many are potlucks.

This comment is very surpising to me as I have been around almost 70 years in Utah and California and never seen caffeinated soft drinks at a church sponserd social. (It may be true that some members bring some for themselves.) Also, vending machines at BYU and the Church family history center only contain caffine free colas and other soft drinks. It is true the church leaves this as an individual choice, as I mentioned.

I have never heard of members worrying about colas being forbidden with a change in presidency, although different apostles certainly have had different personal opinions on the issue but the church takes no position on it.

You may not have heard it, but in the 1960’s some members were worried about Joseph Fielding Smith becoming president for that reason. Their worries were unfounded.

I hope this make my comments more understandable. I do completely agree with you and Tony888 about the dress standards issue. (see entry #974) Visitors are welcome to come to church and especially funerals to dress as they feel comfortable.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yet, the part about eating meat sparingly is ignored, completely.

I worked for many years at a LDS-owned corporation that didn’t have coffee in the office. So, a fellow heathen friend and I would sneak coffee into work. Very clandestine stuff here folks. People who we worked with viewed coffee as the slippery slope to worse things. Coffee today, murder tomorrow.

All that aside, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and creating laws in imitation of the Old Covenant is rather telling, IMNHO.

At the time the WoW came into being, dietary fads were in place that match to what the Mormons implemented as “divine commandment”. I’m surprised it hasn’t faded out with the fad it was modeled after.

 

[mtolympus]

Yet, the part about eating meat sparingly is ignored, completely.

Neverthrless, good advice for those who follow the WoW as a health guide.

I worked for many years at a LDS-owned corporation that didn’t have coffee in the office. So, a fellow heathen friend and I would sneak coffee into work. Very clandestine stuff here folks. People who we worked with viewed coffee as the slippery slope to worse things. Coffee today, murder tomorrow.

My first job out of high school I worked for a catering service in Salt Lake City owned by a former Mormon bishop. Of course he provided coffee to customers. He tasted ever batch of coffee to make sure it was good. I don’t doubt your story but thought I would share one to show everyone is not that stiff.

 

[RebeccaJ]

mtolympus, The rules are different for business people, I know because I grew up in an Mormon entrepreneurial family and then worked for over 25 years in the Mormon business world. Mormon business people break all the rules, and I mean, ALL of them.

 

[JHow]

…Of course he provided coffee to customers. He tasted ever batch of coffee to make sure it was good. I don’t doubt your story but thought I would share one to show everyone is not that stiff.

The only time I visited Provo in the late 1980’s I tried to find coffee at the local breakfast joints (Shoney’s, etc.) and could only get Postum. I’m glad to hear Utah is more liberal with coffee now.

 

[blueadept]

The only time I visited Provo in the late 1980’s I tried to find coffee at the local breakfast joints (Shoney’s, etc.) and could only get Postum. I’m glad to hear Utah is more liberal with coffee now.

Finding a Starbucks in Utah isn’t that difficult… They’re not on every corner like in some cities but that’s not too surprising.

 

[TheExorcist]

The only time I visited Provo in the late 1980’s I tried to find coffee at the local breakfast joints (Shoney’s, etc.) and could only get Postum. I’m glad to hear Utah is more liberal with coffee now.

And the stores are all open on Sunday now too!!

 

[Telstar]

I agree. I love coffee, so I decided to visit a new Starbucks when it opened in a nearby city. It was nasty, too strong and tasted like it was sitting there for about 6 hours before they poured me a cup. BLECCCHHHH!! :dts:

 

[TheExorcist]

I agree. I love coffee, so I decided to visit a new Starbucks when it opened in a nearby city. It was nasty, too strong and tasted like it was sitting there for about 6 hours before they poured me a cup. BLECCCHHHH!! :dts:

Starbucks isn’t for coffee!! Starbucks is for espresso and espresso-like drinks. Their regular coffee for the most part is horrible!