Violence permitted?

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JJR1453

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Hello all,

I am rather new to this forum, its great by the way, and was wondering if any of you smarties:) could explain to a confused soul such as myself to the particulars that surround Just War Doctrine. Or rather the scriptural backing of such a doctrine.

Christ tells us to turn the other cheek in the Sermon on the Mount, but Paul also legitamizes the governing body as minister of God and says that the state does not bear the sword in vain. (Romans 13:4)

Is it ever “just” to wage war and violence? And if so is there scripture to back this up?

Thanks in advance

God bless,

JJR
 
Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, because they were turning it into a den of theives, the Lord is just so his actions too must have been.

St Matthew 21:
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves:
 
All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven.
A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted.
A time to kill, and a time to heal.
A time to destroy, and a time to build.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh.
A time to mourn, and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather.
A time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
A time to get, and a time to lose.
A time to keep, and a time to cast away.
A time to rend, and a time to sew.
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak.
A time of love, and a time of hatred.
A time of war, and a time of peace.
  • Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
 
PinoyCatholic said:
All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven.
A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted.
A time to kill, and a time to heal.
A time to destroy, and a time to build.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh.
A time to mourn, and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather.
A time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
A time to get, and a time to lose.
A time to keep, and a time to cast away.
A time to rend, and a time to sew.
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak.
A time of love, and a time of hatred.
A time of war, and a time of peace.
  • Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
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Great OT reference but we live by the teachings of Jesus.
 
“If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword” -Jesus

It doesn’t get much clearer then that, if Jesus doesn’t want us to defend him with the sword then we shouldn’t.
 
VociMike said:
But does he tell us to do nothing when others are being harmed?
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Turning the other cheek has to do with equalily. You would slap slaves in that time, only with your right hand. Nothing was ever done in public with your left. So if you turn your cheek, they either have to slap you with their left (which no one would ever do) or punch you in the face. You only punch equals in the face, not slaves. Its about human dignity. Try this on for size, after someone hits you, look them straight in the eye and say “I love you” and see if they hit you again.
 
mahoneyt said:
“If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword” -Jesus

It doesn’t get much clearer then that, if Jesus doesn’t want us to defend him with the sword then we shouldn’t.
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Cool.

So what’s your address and bank acount number. I’d like your house, all your belongings and all of your money now.

I’m also planning on taking your family members and selling them into slavery.

It would be wrong of you to do anything to stop me from taking them correct?

Chuck
 
Grace & Peace!
clmowry said:
Cool.

So what’s your address and bank acount number. I’d like your house, all your belongings and all of your money now.

I’m also planning on taking your family members and selling them into slavery.

It would be wrong of you to do anything to stop me from taking them correct?

Chuck
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Let’s not be too ridiculous here.

I don’t think the issue is “no one can do anything to stop violence.” The issue is that violence is not an option for Christians. There are other ways to deal with conflict resolution. Are you to have us believe that violence is the best? Or that even if violence must be resorted to in whatever evil hour, that it is not still an evil in itself? A just war (even if necessary) is still an evil.

Also, your example is predicated in part on the overvaluation of property and is largely ignorant of the witness of the saints and martyrs when it comes to facing overwhelming, bloodthirsty, and evil odds. They did not resort to violence, but they have the victory.

Are you suggesting a resort to violence is appropriate for one who believes in the God who bids us lay up treasure in heaven and hate mother and father to follow him? If so, you are giving the lie to your beliefs and indicating where your values truly lie.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
mahoneyt said:
“If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword” -Jesus

It doesn’t get much clearer then that, if Jesus doesn’t want us to defend him with the sword then we shouldn’t.
Click to expand...
Clear? Actually I don’t think it’s clear at all. In the first place, a just war is not “living by the sword”. In the second place, what you quoted cannot be understood as a prohibition against justified force in defense of the innocent. In the third place, just because Jesus did not want to be defended doesn’t mean that we have no obligation to defend others who need and want defending.
 
Deo_Volente said:
Let’s not be too ridiculous here.
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Hopefully I was being obviously ridiculous in order to make the point.

Just to be clear, no I don’t plan on robbing someone and selling their family into slavery.

That said, what’s so ridiculous about the scenario? Violent crimes are being committed against people as we type.
I don’t think the issue is “no one can do anything to stop violence.” The issue is that violence is not an option for Christians.
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So we should make sure we keep plenty of non-Christians around to protect Christian rights?

How pray tell do you stop me from taking everything I want without resorting to the “violence” that you say is not an option?
There are other ways to deal with conflict resolution. Are you to have us believe that violence is the best? Or that even if violence must be resorted to in whatever evil hour, that it is not still an evil in itself? A just war (even if necessary) is still an evil.
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Where did I say violence was best or always necessary?

So I’m back at your house now: I have a gun I want your things and I want to harm you and your family.

You are going to reason with me. Good for you.

OK so you try that and in response I shoot one of your children, do you continue to reason with me or do you try and take my gun?

If you try and take my gun is that evil?

Is it holy to turn the other cheek while I knock off the rest of your family?

That’s what you are telling me correct?
Also, your example is predicated in part on the overvaluation of property and is largely ignorant of the witness of the saints and martyrs when it comes to facing overwhelming, bloodthirsty, and evil odds. They did not resort to violence, but they have the victory.
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Well actually I used both “stuff” and “family” for a reason. Some small percentage of people “might” argue that it’s appropriate to simply let me take their stuff with no effort to resist me, few to none of them would, however, let me harm their family. Most Christians would of course feel justified in trying to protect both.

I don’t know of many Christians that are proposing the disbandment of the police department that protects their stuff and their persons in favor of turning the other cheek to criminals, but when it becomes an issue of war (usually affecting someone else of course) all of a sudden neither people nor property should be defended.
Are you suggesting a resort to violence is appropriate for one who believes in the God who bids us lay up treasure in heaven and hate mother and father to follow him? If so, you are giving the lie to your beliefs and indicating where your values truly lie.
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Yes I am. I actually like having the right to worship my God in the way I see fit and I thank God for the men who died to give me and maintain that right for me.

And like most people; I am overly attached to having a place to live and food to eat and being free from the constant threat of death by those wishing to do violence against me.

I’m glad you’re beyond all that. I’m sure the charities were very grateful for having received all your belongings.

Chuck
 
mahoneyt said:
Great OT reference but we live by the teachings of Jesus.
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So you’re saying the teachings of Jesus are completely incompatible with the OT?

Whatever happened to:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.”

- Jesus, Matthew 5:17-18.​

Jesus was not a pacifist.
 
Luke 14:31 – Jesus acknowledges the legitimacy of war in this parable.

Luke 19:27 – Jesus says “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.” Jesus teaches that not all killing is intrinsically evil.

Luke 22:36 – Jesus says “let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.” Jesus encourages the legitimate defense against an aggressor.

Rom. 13:3-4 – Paul commends us to those in authority, and exalts a man who “does not bear the sword in vain.” Paul calls such a man “the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”

Obviously there is plenty of scripture emphasizing God’s desire to avoid war and conquer evil with good. There is nothing in Scripture says that legitimately defending oneself or one’s country which results in the killing of another is an intrinsically evil act.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
No one even of the rank of bishop or pope can handle this problem. Pope Benedict himself fought on the side of evil in Nazi Germany and has never proven that he can handle this question.

Catholic priests and bishops have told people that it is God’s will that Catholics fight on the side of evil.

The moderators of Catholic Answers Forum may disagree and they cannot prove me wrong.

Let’s hear any bishop, and I know bishops read this forum (because one quoted in a sermon what I posted in this forum).

Why was it ok to kill innocent people in support of Nazi Germany and wrong to kill guilty abortionists in support of innocent children?

I challenge Pope Benedict or any bishop to answer this question.

Before you reply. I give my real name. Do you have the courage to give yours?
 
clmowry said:
Cool.

So what’s your address and bank acount number. I’d like your house, all your belongings and all of your money now.

I’m also planning on taking your family members and selling them into slavery.

It would be wrong of you to do anything to stop me from taking them correct?

Chuck
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The funny thing is you think violence is the only way to stop that. Question? How many Jews died in Denmark during the years of 1933-1945. When the Germens marched in took everything, as you say. Figure that out and get back to me, its funny to me that you don’t even see the message that Jesus was trying to show. Jesus’ dying for us isn’t only a gift but a way of showing us a third path that isnt violence. Without that I see no value in my Catholic faith, I am merely another animal. Its either fight or flight, no more then a mouse.
 
Pete said:
Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple, because they were turning it into a den of theives, the Lord is just so his actions too must have been.

St Matthew 21:
12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves:
Click to expand...
Turning table over and hitting people with table are two very different things. Jesus in no way is using violence here againist another human. A student made that mistake in a class of mine thinking that Jesus struck someone, I was amazed to see how fast the other students corrected her on her error.
 
PinoyCatholic said:
All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven.
A time to be born and a time to die.
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted.
A time to kill, and a time to heal.
A time to destroy, and a time to build.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh.
A time to mourn, and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather.
A time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
A time to get, and a time to lose.
A time to keep, and a time to cast away.
A time to rend, and a time to sew.
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak.
A time of love, and a time of hatred.
A time of war, and a time of peace.
  • Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
Click to expand...
Context, Context, Context. Who is this written by? What was the time period? Was it an example to be followed? Or an example of what not to follow? Becuase there are a few other things in Ecclesiastes that you don’t believe do you? I think you know the verses I speak of.
 
VociMike said:
Clear? Actually I don’t think it’s clear at all. In the first place, a just war is not “living by the sword”. In the second place, what you quoted cannot be understood as a prohibition against justified force in defense of the innocent. In the third place, just because Jesus did not want to be defended doesn’t mean that we have no obligation to defend others who need and want defending.
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Im sorry but who are these others? “What you do for the least of these you do for me” I understand the inclination to want to help those who are weak and being killed. Violence begats violence. But think about Pope Leo riding out to Attilia the Hun as his people were being killed. Pope Leo looked at Attilia and said “if you value your salvation you will leave my people alone”. When Polycarp, was being burned alive and he pointed to each Roman soldier who was there and said “i forgive you” in systematic order. When Oscar Romero was shot giving mass and he called upon Priests not to take up arms as their parishes were being “kidnapped” in the night never to be seen again. He called Jimmy Carter out on his Christianity for sending guns to El Slavador. The power of Jesus to the way of non-violence has only touched the surface of what we can do.
 
PinoyCatholic said:
So you’re saying the teachings of Jesus are completely incompatible with the OT?

Whatever happened to:

“Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.”

- Jesus, Matthew 5:17-18.​

Jesus was not a pacifist.
Click to expand...
So are we going to stone are children to death? Lets get serious. Don’t throw my statements into the wrong rings, making brash rude statements isn’t a conversation. First of all Ecclesiastes is not the law, those are the first 5 books of the Bible. When law is refered to in the old testament, they are not talking about the whole Bible. Please then show me this claim, that you say Jesus was not a pacifist. I need evidence not statements.
 
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