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BlueShadow123
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Obviously we just see things differently.
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Timothy17
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Alright. But may I kindly ask you to acquiesce, in the spirit of Christian charity, that a Catholic can reasonably maintain the Blessed Virgin’s virginity, seeing as you, yourself, admitt that there is “no proof she didn’t” (copulate) with St Joseph (by this I presume you mean specifically any Biblical evidence, independent of the testimony of Christian tradition), but equally at the same time there is also no definitive evidence stating, in that same source, that she positively did ?
Pax,
(And thank you for reading my reply to your post,)
Tim
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BlueShadow123
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Correct. There is nothing that says she did or that she didn’t. Well there is the verse that talks about how joseph knowed her after her firstborn son.
Some would see this as having sex with him and then having other kids which are mentioned in the bible, but some think they are just cousins. Either way, it really doesn’t matter if she did or didn’t have sex. She was married, so she was never in the wrong to do so.
Besides, back then it was expected to have sex during marriage to have kids. Thats just how it was.
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MartinJordan
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Luke 1 : 35 And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Exodus 40: 35 Then the cloud covered the meeting tent, and the glory of the LORD filled the Dwelling.
36 : Moses could not enter the meeting tent, because ** the cloud settled down upon it** and the glory of the LORD filled the Dwelling.
Ezekiel 44 :
1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed.
2 He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.
Jesus’ virgin birth, was certainly not a usual situation for married couples even in those days.
Early Church writings attest to Mary’s Virginity and her continued chastity. Plus scriptual reference to St. Joseph’s honorable attribute and righteousness.
Note: Emphasis added mine.
MJ
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Timothy17
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Thank you, BlueShadow, for being most fair with us.
While I am not sure if you are already aware of the Catholic Scriptural position for our view (Martin Jordan, posting above, gives us a glimpse), it helps when we both recognize something and, moving on from that point, can then discuss possibilities or alternatives in order to come to further agreements in Christian unity and charity.
May I suggest, restricting ourselves purely to Scripture - which we both recognize as an authority - that we produce and compare verses that lend weight to one position or another, until we can come to another agreement, perhaps about what we can safely say Scripture does (or does not) positively say or lend its weight to on this issue ? I believe such a discoures may be fruitful and edifying for both parties
Thank you, once again, for reading my reply,
Pax,
Tim
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BlueShadow123
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You cant possibly be kidding me. You think THOSE verses prove she stayed a virgin?
Ridiculous.
I think you need to understand that I really couldn’t care less if she did or didn’t remain a virgin. There is no proof either way. She isn’t mentioned that much in the bible, because it isn’t about her. Its about God. There is no proof wether she did or didn’t remain a virgin, and why do you care anyways? Its not like she was in the wrong to do so. Its natural for a married couple to have kids and have sex. So how about we just drop this, and leave Marys sex life alone. Like its really any of our business anyways. Its sad how we are debating about somebodys sex life. You can respond, but I’m done on this thread. Sorry.
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CEM5
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Hi BlueShadow,
Those others mentioned as brothers and sisters of Christ were His relatives. When one carefully writes down the names of those others mentioned along with their parents’ names, you see that all of those mentioned had other mothers and fathers. None were ever mentioned as belonging to Mary or Joseph: only Jesus.
If you need proof, I can submit it.
thank you and blessings of God,
CEM
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CEM5
Guest
Hi BlueShadow,
Re: Mary’s virginity and the use of the word “until”, this word doesn’t mean that after she had Jesus she then had marital relations with Joseph. Until was used to describe the fact that she was a virgin - yet pregnant!! --and gave birth as a virgin. Something miraculous indeed, - that Christ had no earthly father - to show the divinity of Christ. No where in the Scriptures does it ever state that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. And believe me; the Bible is quite free in letting us know who had sexual relations with whom!! (i.e. David and Bathsheba, Rahab, Tamar, to name a few).
When we read 2 Samuel 6:23: ‘And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.’ Are we to assume from this that she had children after she died?
Or how about 1 Corinthians 15:25: ‘For He (Christ) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.’ Are we to assume that Christ’s reign will end? Of course not for in Luke 1:33 it states, ‘He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.’”
Furthermore, Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant - as described in Rev. 11:19, which immediately follows with Rev 12 which describes Mary, giving birth to Jesus (thus our Church through Jesus). The OT ark carried three sacred items: The 10 commandments, (which in NT is Jesus - the Word made flesh); Manna, (which in NT, John 6:31-33, Jesus is the true manna from heaven); and the rod of Aaron, who was the High Priest, (and Jesus is our true High Priest, Heb. 3:1). If anyone in the OT touched the ark, they would die, as seen in 1 Sam. 6:19 and 2 Sam. 6:7).
Now, Mary is more than an object made from wood and gold: She is the sinless flesh, pure and full of grace, who carried and gave birth to God incarnate. She remained the Mother of God (for after all, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and therefore, God, hence, Mary is the Mother of God through Jesus). Mary is more sacred than any wooden ark, and Joseph knew this. What man in their right mind would even consider having sexual relations with the New Ark of the Covenant??? Joseph, because of his holiness was picked among all other men, by God, to be the foster father of Jesus and this held an extremely high honor for Joseph and his “job” was to provide for, and safeguard, the mother of the infant God, Jesus. It wasn’t to “beget” more children upon Mary!! Mary and Joseph’s only duty was to the child Jesus. There were no other offspring from Mary. Jesus was the only child she gave birth to.
Furthermore, in Luke 1:35, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” - this passage has been said to show that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and since God is the Father, it shows that Mary is spiritually the spouse through this miraculous event. Again, do you think a holy man such as Joseph would dare “cheat” on God with Mary (commit adultery)?? I think not.
blessings,
CEM
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