Virginal Childbirth

[Faith1960]

I just learned that the CC teaches that the Blessed Mother wasn’t just virginal by not having had sexual intercourse but also that during childbirth, she physically remained a virgin. I’m wracking my brain and wonder if there are any ideas on how our Lord was born?

I’ve also been wondering if there’s any record of a regular women, at any time, though rare, having remained physically virginal during childbirth?

 

[carmichael2359]

Some years ago, when I was assistant editor at out diocesan newspaper, I read an “apocryphal” account that the midwife, Abigail, who attended our Blessed Mother during childbirth, saw that she was intact before giving birth and, that after the birth of Our Lord was accomplished, that her body became “intact” again. What I’m trying to say is that the hymen appeared to not have ruptured inn the process. There have been all sorts of Treatises written that say our Blessed Mother didn’t actually go through labor pains, as those were the curse God put on Eve for punishment due to her unfaithfulness in the Garden of Eden; and, as Mary was conceived without this Original Sin, there wouldn’t have been any reason for her to have experienced this painful childbirth.
P.S. You have the same favorite Scripture verse as I do!! Way to go!

 

[Bob4BVM]

Try this:
“because God willed it so”

We are Catholics. By our very nature, we accept the absolute possibility of miracles.

Is it harder to believe that Our Lady remained a virgin, than to believe that a piece of bread becomes Jesus Christ in our very midst ?

What we call “miracles” are just the everyday work of God. His holy will be done !

There was a time when i often felt a need to rationalize things like this too. Having experienced a profound and undeniable miracle in my own life, by the grace of God, i no longer feel any need for explanations of such things.

So, be patient with yourself and trust God. He enlightens us all, each according to our need, which He knows better than we do.
If something is really troubling you, ask Him about it. Then listen, listen…

And don’t forget that the BVM can also speak to our hearts as well. Another special grace which God has granted to her. So you can ask her too !

God bless you!

 

[DavidFilmer]

The Church has always discretely avoided direct references to Our Lady’s “private parts,” but (pardon my bluntness) I have always assumed that the teaching was that her hymen was intact before and after childbirth. This is possible in modern times with surgical procedures, but in ancient times (and not-so-ancient times) it would be a miracle.

But that’s pretty small potatoes compared with the Incarnation itself. Or the creation of Creation. A little flap of tissue is nothing compared to these miracles.

 

[LaSainte]

What I want to know is, why on Earth would it be a teaching that she had to remain “intact” through childbirth in order to maintain her “virginity” in the strictest sense? Sounds like a bunch of patriarchal nonsense to me. I mean, a girl can rupture her hymen just by riding a horse (or a donkey!). It doesn’t make her not a virgin. Why anyone would even come up with this idea, how they could even possibly know this, and what possible difference it would make one way or the other seems more to have to do with men’s obsession with physical “virginity” than anything else.

I could of course be wrong and God could have actually arranged it this way, but I find this teaching borderline offensive.

 

[Evan]

What I want to know is, why on Earth would it be a teaching that she had to remain “intact” through childbirth in order to maintain her “virginity” in the strictest sense? … I mean, a girl can rupture her hymen just by riding a horse (or a donkey!). It doesn’t make her not a virgin. Why anyone would even come up with this idea, how they could even possibly know this, and what possible difference it would make one way or the other seems more to have to do with men’s obsession with physical “virginity” than anything else.

I could of course be wrong and God could have actually arranged it this way, but I find this teaching borderline offensive.

I agree with you, and I don’t know the official Church teaching on this. I’ve always assumed that those who express such thought do it out of piety and respect for the Blessed Virgin rather than from any revealed doctrine of the Church.

 

[Faith1960]

I looked this topic up in my copy of Catholicism Answer book, it says “Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. This is known as the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. By the miraculous event of the Annunciation, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived and bore a Son, named Jesus. Though this is a mystery, it is totally logical to conclude this theological point. A mystery is a divine truth that is revealed but not fully explainable. The chief reason it is not fully explainable is because of language. When we speak of divine truths which are infinite, we have only finite language to explain them. The very fact it is finite indicates a limit. We can explain divine truths at times only by analogy because of this limitation.”

What does the author mean by “…divine truths which are infinite?”

 

[Faith1960]

I looked this topic up in my copy of Catholicism Answer book, it says “Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. This is known as the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. By the miraculous event of the Annunciation, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived and bore a Son, named Jesus. Though this is a mystery, it is totally logical to conclude this theological point. A mystery is a divine truth that is revealed but not fully explainable. The chief reason it is not fully explainable is because of language. When we speak of divine truths which are infinite, we have only finite language to explain them. The very fact it is finite indicates a limit. We can explain divine truths at times only by analogy because of this limitation.”

What does the author mean by “…divine truths which are infinite?”

Anyone?

 

[KendraDZ1902]

What I want to know is, why on Earth would it be a teaching that she had to remain “intact” through childbirth in order to maintain her “virginity” in the strictest sense? Sounds like a bunch of patriarchal nonsense to me. I mean, a girl can rupture her hymen just by riding a horse (or a donkey!). It doesn’t make her not a virgin. Why anyone would even come up with this idea, how they could even possibly know this, and what possible difference it would make one way or the other seems more to have to do with men’s obsession with physical “virginity” than anything else.

I could of course be wrong and God could have actually arranged it this way, but I find this teaching borderline offensive.

I agree. Just because your hymen breaks, doesn’t make you any less virgin. The fact that her hymen did or didn’t break doesn’t make me think less of her, or question her virginity.

 

[Faith1960]

I agree. Just because your hymen breaks, doesn’t make you any less virgin. The fact that her hymen did or didn’t break doesn’t make me think less of her, or question her virginity.

Me neither, but according to the CC, she remained a virgin in the physical sense.

 

[Faith1960]

Isn’t there anyone who can answer my question?

 

[SweetLambs]

I read/heard somewhere that a saint (and I apologize, but I cannot remember his name), believed that Our Lord was in the Blessed Mother’s womb one moment and in her arms the next, “as a light passes through a crystal”. That is, He did not need to navigate the birth canal as babies must in order to be delivered (except via C-section, which was not practiced in those days). It would have been a miraculous, painless “delivery”.

I tend to believe that whether this is true or not, her delivery would have been painless, and given the miraculous nature of her pregnancy, a supernatural method of delivery is no less believable. I’m saying this as a scientist-student who is at this moment wondering how the fetal membranes would be expelled or even if they were. Maybe those would have miraculously disappeared too. But I don’t think any of this is that important, and at least during our time here, we really won’t know.

And just because a girl ruptures her hymen horseback riding doesn’t make her any less a virgin. However, being intact is the physical sign of virginity and as such I can see the emphasis on it, especially in those days.

I do not see how it would be possible to deliver a child and physically remain a virgin (hymen intact) in the natural realm. But I am not an OB/GYN and my knowledge of reproduction is mainly limited to livestock. I suppose “technically” you could have a “virgin” ewe if you artifically inseminated her (as a maiden, never bred) laparoscopically (which is how AI is typically done in sheep for reasons that I will not get into here) and then delivered the lambs via C-section. Obviously AI is a grave sin if performed on human beings and I do not know how it is done…but I still think that would violate the spirit of virginity even if the hymen was not ruptured during the process and the child was delivered via C-section.

 

[davidv]

I read/heard somewhere that a saint (and I apologize, but I cannot remember his name), believed that Our Lord was in the Blessed Mother’s womb one moment and in her arms the next, “as a light passes through a crystal”. That is, He did not need to navigate the birth canal as babies must in order to be delivered (except via C-section, which was not practiced in those days). It would have been a miraculous, painless “delivery”.

I tend to believe that whether this is true or not, her delivery would have been painless, and given the miraculous nature of her pregnancy, a supernatural method of delivery is no less believable. I’m saying this as a scientist-student who is at this moment wondering how the fetal membranes would be expelled or even if they were. Maybe those would have miraculously disappeared too. But I don’t think any of this is that important, and at least during our time here, we really won’t know.

And just because a girl ruptures her hymen horseback riding doesn’t make her any less a virgin. However, being intact is the physical sign of virginity and as such I can see the emphasis on it, especially in those days.

I do not see how it would be possible to deliver a child and physically remain a virgin (hymen intact) in the natural realm. But I am not an OB/GYN and my knowledge of reproduction is mainly limited to livestock. I suppose “technically” you could have a “virgin” ewe if you artifically inseminated her (as a maiden, never bred) laparoscopically (which is how AI is typically done in sheep for reasons that I will not get into here) and then delivered the lambs via C-section. Obviously AI is a grave sin if performed on human beings and I do not know how it is done…but I still think that would violate the spirit of virginity even if the hymen was not ruptured during the process and the child was delivered via C-section.

Virgin is defined:

1. a person who has never had sexual intercourse.

The physical condition of the female person does not determine if one is a virgin. It is strictly dependent on whether they had intercourse.

 

[SweetLambs]

Virgin is defined:
The physical condition of the female person does not determine if one is a virgin. It is strictly dependent on whether they had intercourse.

I think we are all aware of this; however, the OP was asking about whether it was possible to be physically intact during and after childbirth. Obviously Catholics believe that Our Lady is indeed a virgin- but how she could remain physically intact after a natural delivery was the OP’s question.

As far as I am aware, there’s no other way to “prove” virginity other than an intact hymen. Therefore I suspect that the fact that she remained a physical virgin is important. And I do not see how that could happen after childbirth except through miraculous means, or a miraculous method of delivery.

 

[carmichael2359]

Isn’t there anyone who can answer my question?

I agree with everyone who says it’s somewhat indelicate, nay crass, to dwell on this physical subject. I always shied away from thinking about it, because, as so many pointed out, the real miracle is the Incarnation itself. I do, remember, however, that bit of info I gave you from my research days. I don’t want to misquote a source, but it was in a Pseudepigraphal account. There were so many of those in the early Church that it’s why the Council of Hippo decided, in 393 A.D. which books were canonical, and which ones were not. The Council of Tent formally canonized all the traditional books in 1546. Some of the. “Lost Books” were kind of wild. As you can imagine, all sorts of legends sprang up during the early Church. But that’s the legend/info I got, that when Our Blessed Mother was delivered of Christ, the midwife was flabbergasted to see that she was a virgin before and after.

 

[Evan]

I agree with everyone who says it’s somewhat indelicate, nay crass, to dwell on this physical subject. I always shied away from thinking about it, because, as so many pointed out, the real miracle is the Incarnation itself. I do, remember, however, that bit of info I gave you from my research days. I don’t want to misquote a source, but it was in a Pseudepigraphal account. There were so many of those in the early Church that it’s why the Council of Hippo decided, in 393 A.D. which books were canonical, and which ones were not. The Council of Tent formally canonized all the traditional books in 1546. Some of the. “Lost Books” were kind of wild. As you can imagine, all sorts of legends sprang up during the early Church. But that’s the legend/info I got, that when Our Blessed Mother was delivered of Christ, the midwife was flabbergasted to see that she was a virgin before and after.

I have never heard of the midwife present at the birth of our Lord.

 

[carmichael2359]

Isn’t there anyone who can answer my question?

Yeah, the story is out there. As I said, it’s not canonical. If you really want to freak out, read a book called The infancy Narratives by Brown. It’s a Catholic book based pnn old historical accounts. But you’d better have a great faith base first. It’s difficult to get through if u don’t.

 

[catholicmom2010]

You may be referring to the Protoevangelium of James which is not canonical but can be found in the Catholic Encyclopedia. I too, used to get caught up in wanting answers to these types of questions, but if God wanted us to know the details, he would have given them to us. We will know the answers when we get to heaven (although as someone once said to me- at that point I will either know, or it won’t matter anymore).

 

[marymary1975]

I read/heard somewhere that a saint (and I apologize, but I cannot remember his name), believed that Our Lord was in the Blessed Mother’s womb one moment and in her arms the next, “as a light passes through a crystal”. That is, He did not need to navigate the birth canal as babies must in order to be delivered (except via C-section, which was not practiced in those days). It would have been a miraculous, painless “delivery”.

I tend to believe that whether this is true or not, her delivery would have been painless, and given the miraculous nature of her pregnancy, a supernatural method of delivery is no less believable. I’m saying this as a scientist-student who is at this moment wondering how the fetal membranes would be expelled or even if they were. Maybe those would have miraculously disappeared too. But I don’t think any of this is that important, and at least during our time here, we really won’t know.

And just because a girl ruptures her hymen horseback riding doesn’t make her any less a virgin. However, being intact is the physical sign of virginity and as such I can see the emphasis on it, especially in those days.

I do not see how it would be possible to deliver a child and physically remain a virgin (hymen intact) in the natural realm. But I am not an OB/GYN and my knowledge of reproduction is mainly limited to livestock. I suppose “technically” you could have a “virgin” ewe if you artifically inseminated her (as a maiden, never bred) laparoscopically (which is how AI is typically done in sheep for reasons that I will not get into here) and then delivered the lambs via C-section. Obviously AI is a grave sin if performed on human beings and I do not know how it is done…but I still think that would violate the spirit of virginity even if the hymen was not ruptured during the process and the child was delivered via C-section.

I am almost positive that what you relate is from Saint Faustina’s diaries. I am pretty much sure Jesus told her that in the same miraculous way he came in, same miraculous way he came out. I think the diary mentioned that saint Joseph turned his head around one minute to get something and when he turned back the virgin had the child already in her arms. Also, don’t forget we are talking about God, God created the entire universe, God created human beings, he made miracles, brought people back from death. Obviously, a virgin birth for God can be quite easy.

 

[carmichael2359]

Sounds great to me!