Virginity and marriage.

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Xantippe said:
Starship is a whole whopping 24 years old (or so).

I strongly suspect that his “nice guy” phase was not very lengthy.
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Not long at all, just 6 or 7 years. Was in denial about the Red Pill until recently. Perhaps I should have waited until my 30’s after having made some money when women discover the benefits of a nice walle- er I mean guy. The wise man learns from watching other people screw up, in this case, a cousin of mine.
 
Xantippe said:
My husband and I have been through the start-acting-like-ourselves phase of our marriage.

I was speaking from experience. In my experience, our relationship has gone through three phases.

Step 1 (courtship): You are AMAZING. Let me do ALL the THINGS for YOU.

Step 2 (parenthood): So tired! Waaaah! I can’t help you with the things! Why don’t you help ME with the things?

Step 3 (mature marriage): Learning to be fair to each other, to be liberal with affection and praise, to speak clearly, and to have self-control. (It’s a work in progress.)
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Well, it probably won’t mean anything to you that I just say so, but, though I might be ‘lazy’ about starting habits, once I do, they become normal. Put it in the routine and it just keeps happening without thought. Example: one New Years I decided it would be cool to keep a diary.

For the next SIX YEARS I recorded every single boring, monogamous day of my life. Every night before bed, and if I missed a day or two, I caught it all up the next time I wrote. It became so ingrained, it felt wrong not to write before bed. I finally gave it up when I realized I couldn’t even stand to go back through it, and no one else would ever want to read it, because it never said anything new. Recently, I burned all these notebooks.

My point being: phase one becomes habit, becomes normal, simply continues. Obviously not all the time for everything, obviously, hard things may break the pattern, obviously, stress may disrupt the habit, BUT default for me is pretty strong. I do my entire job these days on auto-pilot while my mind wanders to topics like these because I’ve had the job long enough that I can just do it. And it only took about six months to get to that point.

So phase one becomes habit and phase two barely matters because one and two merge. And please don’t tell me it’s impossible to live through phase one expecting (and forestalling) phase two and intending phase three throughout.
 
LethalMouse said:
And it is possible that like your poor skinny husbamd he turns into rich James Bond Ward Cleaver though right?

Or is there only one man no mentally ill on earth?
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Ha! But he is currently neither skinny, poor, nor pathetic. He’s grown-up, established, and in a good provider role 😛
 
starshiptrooper said:
Not long at all, just 6 or 7 years. Was in denial about the Red Pill until recently. Perhaps I should have waited until my 30’s after having made some money when women discover the benefits of a nice walle- er I mean guy. The wise man learns from watching other people screw up, in this case, a cousin of mine.
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I met my husband when he was–coincidentally–24. At that point he had never ever taken a girl out or kissed a girl. (I had kissed a boy or two.)

We got married less than a year later, have been married 18 years and have three lovely children.
 
Xantippe said:
Here’s another issue.

It’s a problem that in the manosphere, there’s so much chatter about getting a virgin bride, in that they talk as though that’s all there is to successful marriage. I see a lot of issues with that:
  1. Virginity is something that has to be taken on faith, so it doesn’t even make sense to treat it as the end all be all, when it’s something you can’t be 100% sure of the way you can be that the person is an RN or that they have a comfortable home and make great waffles and that they go to church every Sunday, rain or shine.
So, why not put more weight on the facts that you can be more sure of?
  1. Virginity by itself is not going to make a great marriage–it’s nice, but just the beginning. It is possible to marry a virgin bride and be such a screw up that the relationship implodes.
Oh, and for Starshiptrooper:

Why should nice girls keep being nice, if the reward is that they get to be old maids while the guys their age go hang around with prostitutes?

I personally think that chastity is its own reward, but on your terms (which don’t seem to be much informed by your Catholic faith), why should “nice girls” keep being nice? Chastity not infrequently means foregoing a shot at motherhood, which is a big deal for “nice girls.”
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I’m not just the technical virgin; I agree that doesn’t mean much.

I’m the full-on virgin - born Catholic, raised knowing and agreeing with the rules, not damaged by past relationships, no lackadaisical attitude toward sex, no man-hating bitterness, no (ahem) acquired diseases, no scheming plot to hitch myself to a meal ticket and drink him dry.

I say this not to brag, but to point out that perhaps these are the positives they’re thinking of when they say ‘I want a virgin.’ (This is also not to say that those who fell and then got serious about their faith can’t have all these positives too; I just had them by default.)

Not in technicality but in totality. The way it used to be more often. Sadly today you have people of both sexes pushing every limit they can and still claiming technical virginity. That obviously doesn’t come with the same positive associations.
 
starshiptrooper said:
Not long at all, just 6 or 7 years. Was in denial about the Red Pill until recently. Perhaps I should have waited until my 30’s after having made some money when women discover the benefits of a nice walle- er I mean guy. The wise man learns from watching other people screw up, in this case, a cousin of mine.
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Are you going to continue to ignore the posts I took time and thought to compose in response to you? Possibly because I don’t fit your scheming woman stereotype?
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Are you going to continue to ignore the posts I took time and thought to compose in response to you? Possibly because I don’t fit your scheming woman stereotype?
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I am currently working 10-12 hour days and typing most responses on my phone. I was not capable of giving your post the time and effort it deserves. I will give you the short version. You seem like a smart lady with realistic expectations and a working knowledge of your own limitations. I hope you are happy.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Well, it probably won’t mean anything to you that I just say so, but, though I might be ‘lazy’ about starting habits, once I do, they become normal. Put it in the routine and it just keeps happening without thought. Example: one New Years I decided it would be cool to keep a diary.

For the next SIX YEARS I recorded every single boring, monogamous day of my life. Every night before bed, and if I missed a day or two, I caught it all up the next time I wrote. It became so ingrained, it felt wrong not to write before bed. I finally gave it up when I realized I couldn’t even stand to go back through it, and no one else would ever want to read it, because it never said anything new. Recently, I burned all these notebooks.

My point being: phase one becomes habit, becomes normal, simply continues. Obviously not all the time for everything, obviously, hard things may break the pattern, obviously, stress may disrupt the habit, BUT default for me is pretty strong. I do my entire job these days on auto-pilot while my mind wanders to topics like these because I’ve had the job long enough that I can just do it. And it only took about six months to get to that point.

So phase one becomes habit and phase two barely matters because one and two merge. And please don’t tell me it’s impossible to live through phase one expecting (and forestalling) phase two and intending phase three throughout.
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Well, even if that was 100% true of you, there would still be your guy to consider–it would be very, very unusual if both of you were like that.

This transition is typical enough that C.S. Lewis talks about it in the Eros chapter of The Four Loves (great book, by the way).

What’s happened in our family is that in the initial courtship/newlywed phase, there really wasn’t a lot of work at home–it was just the two of us in a small apartment. Plus, not being parents, even though our income was small, there was proportionately a lot of disposable income.

As the family grows and the home itself gets bigger and the couple becomes homeowners, the base level of work that needs to happen for basic survival rises and rises–it’s not just a question of 10-20 minutes of chores a day anymore. Little babies, for example, are known to eat every two hours, round the clock, week after week. And that’s just one thing. And each child or life transition (a move, a new job) can add to the load. Plus, with each additional child, the slice of the pie available for mom and dad fun gets smaller and smaller. (I believe I last went and saw a movie with my husband nearly two years ago.) “Date night” is prohibitively expensive for parents, even if it’s just fast food and a movie–that’s a $50 night out once you pay a sitter.

Both my husband and I do way, way more housework and childcare work day-to-day than we did in our let-me-do-all-the-things-for-you phase. That’s why additional spousal requests are often resented in Step 2–because each member of the couple is already working REALLY hard, and they may each feel like they are already doing all the things, and their spouse is being selfish by imposing more.

And back to the main topic of the thread, that’s why the virginity mania is so weird and stupid–the obstacles of young parenthood are huge, virgin bride or not a virgin bride–and being a virgin bride will not keep your baby from colic or clear up a tummy bug faster or make a dental bill cost less.
 
starshiptrooper said:
I am currently working 10-12 hour days and typing most responses on my phone. I was not capable of giving your post the time and effort it deserves. I will give you the short version. You seem like a smart lady with realistic expectations and a working knowledge of your own limitations. I hope you are happy.
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Thank you both for the response and the explanation.
 
starshiptrooper said:
I am currently working 10-12 hour days and typing most responses on my phone. I was not capable of giving your post the time and effort it deserves. I will give you the short version. You seem like a smart lady with realistic expectations and a working knowledge of your own limitations. I hope you are happy.
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So assuming she speaks truths, why not find one like her instead of spinning plates or prostitution or whatever variance thereof.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Seriously? SERIOUSLY? :tsktsk:

FIGHT ME THOU KNAVE, THOU DOST NOT INSULT MINE KNIGHT! :slapfight:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Hey I just give conteary possibilities. Note I said “might”

No insult 🙂

And like I said to Xantippe, I figure he will be you Bond Cleaver 😃

Though personally I wouldn’t Bond much.

I kinda think I like more the Will Smith in Men in Black maybe mixed with the Boondock Saints guys lol. I dont think I want the seriousness of Bond as my personal thing.
 
Xantippe said:
Well, even if that was 100% true of you, there would still be your guy to consider–it would be very, very unusual if both of you were like that.

This transition is typical enough that C.S. Lewis talks about it in the Eros chapter of The Four Loves (great book, by the way).

What’s happened in our family is that in the initial courtship/newlywed phase, there really wasn’t a lot of work at home–it was just the two of us in a small apartment. Plus, not being parents, even though our income was small, there was proportionately a lot of disposable income.

As the family grows and the home itself gets bigger and the couple becomes homeowners, the base level of work that needs to happen for basic survival rises and rises–it’s not just a question of 10-20 minutes of chores a day anymore. Little babies, for example, are known to eat every two hours, round the clock, week after week. And that’s just one thing. And each child or life transition (a move, a new job) can add to the load. Plus, with each additional child, the slice of the pie available for mom and dad fun gets smaller and smaller. (I believe I last went and saw a movie with my husband nearly two years ago.) “Date night” is prohibitively expensive for parents, even if it’s just fast food and a movie–that’s a $50 night out once you pay a sitter.

Both my husband and I do way, way more housework and childcare work day-to-day than we did in our let-me-do-all-the-things-for-you phase. That’s why additional spousal requests are often resented in Step 2–because each member of the couple is already working REALLY hard, and they may each feel like they are already doing all the things, and their spouse is being selfish by imposing more.

And back to the main topic of the thread, that’s why the virginity mania is so weird and stupid–the obstacles of young parenthood are huge, virgin bride or not a virgin bride–and being a virgin bride will not keep your baby from colic or clear up a tummy bug faster or make a dental bill cost less.
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My motto is forewarned = forearmed.

Secondly, there is no small easy apartment phase. I’d be walking into a fully established household and mini farm AND a preexisting child. Sure, having my own child(ren) will increase the load, but I’ll not be jumping from easy street to adulthood in the way you describe. It’s going to be work from the outset.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
My motto is forewarned = forearmed.

Secondly, there is no small easy apartment phase. I’d be walking into a fully established household and mini farm AND a preexisting child. Sure, having my own child(ren) will increase the load, but I’ll not be jumping from easy street to adulthood in the way you describe. It’s going to be work from the outset.
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Well in a sense any romance on his part could be temporary.

And he is established but you are not, so you will be essentially thrust into his life. Could be stressful.
 
LethalMouse said:
Well in a sense any romance on his part could be temporary.

And he is established but you are not, so you will be essentially thrust into his life. Could be stressful.
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It WILL be stressful.

Good thing his mere presence is innately soothing. :rolleyes:
 
LethalMouse said:
If the chemicals fade? O.o
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Then willpower prevails.

I may lack some virtues but loyalty makes up for it. I don’t have the energy for grudges. And did you miss what I said about routine? Was it chemicals that kept me writing a diary for six years? Nope. :dts:
 
SilverShadow22 said:
My motto is forewarned = forearmed.

Secondly, there is no small easy apartment phase. I’d be walking into a fully established household and mini farm AND a preexisting child. Sure, having my own child(ren) will increase the load, but I’ll not be jumping from easy street to adulthood in the way you describe. It’s going to be work from the outset.
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If you guys get to engagement, make sure you have very clear shared ideas about what your role will be with the kid and the mini-farm.

My mom was a farm kid and my dad is (among many other things) a rancher, but my mom has successfully avoided 95% of ranch work for at least the last 35 years that I know of (she’ll very occasionally feed the cows when my dad is away). My dad loves it and he does it, but it’s his thing, not my mom’s thing. My grandparents have been a bit different (grandma was much more involved with the farm), but this is something to be decided very individually.

If the mini-farm isn’t something you feel passionate about, I would not feel compelled to go 50/50 on it, especially as new babies arrive. (One of the top 10 things on my list a pregnant lady should not have to do–throwing 50 pound hay bales around.)
 
Xantippe, I think many of the manosphere types mean, when they say “I want to marry a virgin” also that they assume a “nice girl who is a virgin” also automatically ticks the boxes when it comes to being a “traditional” or “submissive” wife who will happily provide them with sex on demand, carry out 99% of the household chores and childrearing duties, and essentially make for the “perfect marriage” that doesn’t require any maintenance or sacrifice at all.

Because they somehow deserve such a perfect wife and marriage as a reward, for being a religiously devout man who managed to fight off those terrible God-given red-blooded male sexual temptations, and God would be a big meanie if he didn’t reward such sacrifice.

Notably, many such men also prefer younger women, even those who are still living with their parents, they often they will claim this is because they are statistically more likely to be virgins and be not “corrupted” by the world. But I doubt it’s a coincidence that there is an obvious power imbalance between a 20 year old “girl” who hasn’t even been to college because her parents saw no need as she’s just going to grow up to be a wife and mom, and a 30 year old man who’s holding down a job.
 
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