Virginity and marriage.

[SilverShadow22]

If you guys get to engagement, make sure you have very clear shared ideas about what your role will be with the kid and the mini-farm.

My mom was a farm kid and my dad is (among many other things) a rancher, but my mom has successfully avoided 95% of ranch work for at least the last 35 years that I know of (she’ll very occasionally feed the cows when my dad is away). My dad loves it and he does it, but it’s his thing, not my mom’s thing. My grandparents have been a bit different (grandma was much more involved with the farm), but this is something to be decided very individually.

If the mini-farm isn’t something you feel passionate about, I would not feel compelled to go 50/50 on it, especially as new babies arrive. (One of the top 10 things on my list a pregnant lady should not have to do–throwing 50 pound hay bales around.)

Considering that I’m coming FROM a mini farm (chickens) this is actually one of my areas of specialized knowledge. I’ve butchered chickens AND a cow, for instance, and he has not. Again, I’m not jumping out of my depth.

 

[SilverShadow22]

Xantippe, I think many of the manosphere types mean, when they say “I want to marry a virgin” also that they assume a “nice girl who is a virgin” also automatically ticks the boxes when it comes to being a “traditional” or “submissive” wife who will happily provide them with sex on demand, carry out 99% of the household chores and childrearing duties, and essentially make for the “perfect marriage” that doesn’t require any maintenance or sacrifice at all.

Because they somehow deserve such a perfect wife and marriage as a reward, for being a religiously devout man who managed to fight off those terrible God-given red-blooded male sexual temptations, and God would be a big meanie if he didn’t reward such sacrifice.

Notably, many such men also prefer younger women, even those who are still living with their parents, they often they will claim this is because they are statistically more likely to be virgins and be not “corrupted” by the world. But I doubt it’s a coincidence that there is an obvious power imbalance between a 20 year old “girl” who hasn’t even been to college because her parents saw no need as she’s just going to grow up to be a wife and mom, and a 30 year old man who’s holding down a job.

… And why do you characterize this as an all or nothing proposition?

Can’t a woman help her man without being a slave? Can’t she be ‘untainted’ without being a foolishly naive child? Can’t she use to her advantage not being used to seeking only her own good and her own will without being a helpless pushover?

An older man and younger woman makes sense for fertility AND stability. Are you going to call it a ‘power imbalance’ because I’m 25 and he just turned 31? Is it wrong for me to like the idea of a mature, established man with his act together, and is it wrong to see it as a positive that it’ll be easier for me to fit in if I don’t have my own fully-formed life to abandon?

And I am the one who saw no need for college, as I’m going to become a wife and mother. My parents supported me either way. However, I never stopped reading and learning and I’m currently enrolled online in classes. So. I’d appreciate it if BOTH sides would stop with the false dichotomies.

 

[Jimbay]

And back to the main topic of the thread, that’s why the virginity mania is so weird and stupid–the obstacles of young parenthood are huge, virgin bride or not a virgin bride–and being a virgin bride will not keep your baby from colic or clear up a tummy bug faster or make a dental bill cost less.

The “virginity mania” may just be a response to the promiscuity in western culture that is becoming commonplace, though it(the mania) can get out of hand. Your points that follow are true of course, but I’m not sure they are necessary. Men have always conferred a higher level of respectability on the female virgin. They won’t always say it but it’s there.

 

[SilverShadow22]

The “virginity mania” may just be a response to the promiscuity in western culture that is becoming commonplace, though it(the mania) can get out of hand. Your points that follow are true of course, but I’m not sure they are necessary. Men have always conferred a higher level of respectability on the female virgin. They won’t always say it but it’s there.

If a girl can use that as part of the incentive for keeping her virginity, I count it a good thing.

 

[LethalMouse]

Xantippe, I think many of the manosphere types mean, when they say “I want to marry a virgin” also that they assume a “nice girl who is a virgin” also automatically ticks the boxes when it comes to being a “traditional” or “submissive” wife who will happily provide them with sex on demand, carry out 99% of the household chores and childrearing duties, and essentially make for the “perfect marriage” that doesn’t require any maintenance or sacrifice at all.

Because they somehow deserve such a perfect wife and marriage as a reward, for being a religiously devout man who managed to fight off those terrible God-given red-blooded male sexual temptations, and God would be a big meanie if he didn’t reward such sacrifice.

Notably, many such men also prefer younger women, even those who are still living with their parents, they often they will claim this is because they are statistically more likely to be virgins and be not “corrupted” by the world. But I doubt it’s a coincidence that there is an obvious power imbalance between a 20 year old “girl” who hasn’t even been to college because her parents saw no need as she’s just going to grow up to be a wife and mom, and a 30 year old man who’s holding down a job.

I think too IF this is the case and with the disordered lot it probably is, the issue that I at least would want to see her propped up on her “own” at least to a degree because many times once set “free” men/women go buck wild lol.

TBH I am not sure how much I would trust sliding a woman straiggt from a house of her parents to mine. I have not the energy to “parent” so she would find herself all too free if she has any ability to go wild… and well that could end bad lol.

 

[LethalMouse]

The “virginity mania” may just be a response to the promiscuity in western culture that is becoming commonplace, though it(the mania) can get out of hand. Your points that follow are true of course, but I’m not sure they are necessary. Men have always conferred a higher level of respectability on the female virgin. They won’t always say it but it’s there.

Yeah, in a world where virgins run anbout 10/100 and many being scooped up early… idk what that number is for older types… but it is so rare it is like a precious metal. Supply/demand. They are rare and most things rare are inherently valued high regardless of what it is lol.

 

[Lea101]

Yeah, in a world where virgins run anbout 10/100 and many being scooped up early… idk what that number is for older types… but it is so rare it is like a precious metal. Supply/demand. They are rare and most things rare are inherently valued high regardless of what it is lol.

I always had the impression that men (in general) don’t want to be involved with a virgin…then girls lose their virginity so they aren’t seen as “prudes”. Then the guys want to settle down years later and want their women to be virgins smh! (To be fair, this is not the case for religious men but it’s kind of sad because I’m alr getting teased because I never had my first kiss yet LOL)

 

[Xantippe]

Considering that I’m coming FROM a mini farm (chickens) this is actually one of my areas of specialized knowledge. I’ve butchered chickens AND a cow, for instance, and he has not. Again, I’m not jumping out of my depth.

Very good!

It’s different when pregnant or with little children around to keep safe, though.

 

[pensmama87]

I think too IF this is the case and with the disordered lot it orobably is the miss that I at least would want to see her propped up on her “own” at least to a degree because many times once set “free” men/women go buck wild lol.

TBH I am not sure how much I would trust sliding a woman straiggt from a house of her oarents to mine. I have not the energy to “parent” so she would find herself all too free if she has any ability to go wild… and well that could end bad lol.

Well, it’s also true that you don’t really know how good you are at managing a home until you actually have to do it. I knew how to cook and clean, and do laundry and even shop with an eye for thrift and sales (that has been much more sharply honed since then). But I didn’t know much about paying utility bills and making a budget and small repairs and taking care of the car. Some of that I could have been better prepared for, but some of it is just stuff you learn when you are an adult and you have to be in charge of it.

My personal opinion is that it’s much wiser to learn some of that before you jump right into marriage and parenting. I’ve seen that some of the “red pill” folk really want a wife who isn’t well educated, either, and that seems like a recipe for disaster as far as household management. There’s a lot of skill involved to do it well. So unless you make enough to hire out all the essentials and your wife can truly just be your ornament (and that’s a LOT of dough, folks…) you’re not setting yourself up for marriage success.

(And it never seems to occur to them that there’s an element of self-fulfilling prophecy in there, either…)

 

[Xantippe]

The “virginity mania” may just be a response to the promiscuity in western culture that is becoming commonplace, though it(the mania) can get out of hand. Your points that follow are true of course, but I’m not sure they are necessary. Men have always conferred a higher level of respectability on the female virgin. They won’t always say it but it’s there.

Well, the guys I’m thinking of never seem to know or want to think about the obstacles of young marriage and parenthood.

It’s the underpants gnomes theory of marriage and family:

Step 1. Marry a virgin.

Step 2. ???

Step 3. Profit!

 

[Sarcelle]

The “virginity mania” may just be a response to the promiscuity in western culture that is becoming commonplace, though it(the mania) can get out of hand. Your points that follow are true of course, but I’m not sure they are necessary. Men have always conferred a higher level of respectability on the female virgin. They won’t always say it but it’s there.

You sure about that? About men conferring a higher level of respectability to female virgins?

I was accused of being a lesbian because I did not sleep around and kept myself chaste.

Usually by men and because I would not sleep with them. It’s more about virgins being unconquered territory.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I always had the impression that men (in general) don’t want to be involved with a virgin…then girls lose their virginity so they aren’t seen as “prudes”. Then the guys want to settle down years later and want their women to be virgins smh! (To be fair, this is not the case for religious men but it’s kind of sad because I’m alr getting teased because I never had my first kiss yet LOL)

I didn’t either until just a few weeks ago. Save it for when things are really serious and you’re way less likely to regret giving it away too soon. It means nothing (to not have done it.) My first kiss(es) were fantastic on the first try. No practice needed.

 

[LethalMouse]

I always had the impression that men (in general) don’t want to be involved with a virgin…then girls lose their virginity so they aren’t seen as “prudes”. Then the guys want to settle down years later and want their women to be virgins smh! (To be fair, this is not the case for religious men but it’s kind of sad because I’m alr getting teased because I never had my first kiss yet LOL)

Same farce of the women who date bad guys and then want good after they have slung around the mud a decade…

Bad players often dont want virgins.

Also guys who are scared dont want virgins. Think about it! If she is more “worthy” of proper treatment their conscience comes into play.

A “hoe” is a good sex toy with no remorse. If you are a decent guyconfused by society.

The same guy can’t justify using a virgin as a sex toy.

So only either a unconfused good guy can date a virgin

Or a really bad guy can nail a virgin for beagging.

They say they wont date the virgin because they are scared, scared of caring, scared of being held responsible, scared of well… being a man.

And that is part of the issue too, many dislike worthy women because they don’t wsnt the responsibility of being a real man.

So as a result some men value the virgin because the pine for a reason to be a real man. Not that a non virgin can’t do the same, but it is also direct rebellion agaisnt what they see as failed men.

If bad/weak men fear the virgin, then the virgin must be where to go if you are not bad or weak

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Xantippe, I think many of the manosphere types mean, when they say “I want to marry a virgin” also that they assume a “nice girl who is a virgin” also automatically ticks the boxes when it comes to being a “traditional” or “submissive” wife who will happily provide them with sex on demand, carry out 99% of the household chores and childrearing duties, and essentially make for the “perfect marriage” that doesn’t require any maintenance or sacrifice at all.

Because they somehow deserve such a perfect wife and marriage as a reward, for being a religiously devout man who managed to fight off those terrible God-given red-blooded male sexual temptations, and God would be a big meanie if he didn’t reward such sacrifice.

Notably, many such men also prefer younger women, even those who are still living with their parents, they often they will claim this is because they are statistically more likely to be virgins and be not “corrupted” by the world. But I doubt it’s a coincidence that there is an obvious power imbalance between a 20 year old “girl” who hasn’t even been to college because her parents saw no need as she’s just going to grow up to be a wife and mom, and a 30 year old man who’s holding down a job.

The RedPill world is full of contradictions. They want the lowest possible risk of divorce - and to marry an uneducated 18 year old with no job skills. They want a SAHW, but women who don’t work are entitled princesses living off the labor of men. They want to be respected as strong, capable leaders, but they don’t want to be expected to actually meet any sort of standards or be held accountable. Free, unearned respect is hardly real respect.

I’m actually relatively new to all of this (Xan actually showed me a few of the sites for the first time not too long ago), but it all strikes me as, well, crazy. Its built around delusions of grandeur, painful loneliness, and desperate attempts to reduce authentic human interaction to a simple math formula. When you get past the insults, language, and anger, it’s all very sad. (It also reminds me of Scientology in that it totally changes how its adherents speak and think to the point where communicating with outsiders becomes very difficult).

I showed some of it to my husband to get a man’s take and his theory is that men are bigger, stronger, faster, more successful, admired, and respected (on average), they make more money (on average), and they are the most visible and renouned people in most fields. But despite all of this, women still get to choose their partners. Being told “no, not interested” by someone who is “lesser” drives a certain subset of men crazy. That’s the one thing they can’t do over women - make women want them. I’m not sure if I agree with this theory or if it explains all of it, but I thought it was interesting and certainly plausable.

His other statement that totally cracked me up was in regards to the idea that if a woman is successful, she can’t or won’t be interested in her husband. Of course, the RP solution to this is keeping women locked away until early marriage and motherhood. Hubby’s solution was better though: “Have they ever considered just being better men?”

 

[Lea101]

I didn’t either until just a few weeks ago. Save it for when things are really serious and you’re way less likely to regret giving it away too soon. It means nothing (to not have done it.) My first kiss(es) were fantastic on the first try. No practice needed.

Is there even a guy who can actually wait for things to be serious before having a kiss?

But tbh i never really found kisses to be so important. Cute memory, yes, but I cannot imagine regretting a kiss?

I’m alone due to lack of opportunity

 

[LethalMouse]

Actually that is a good point I half made as I think about it.

The more someone is worth, the more responsible we are to them.

So since guys tend to value virginity, there are of course disordered virgin seekers… but…

The reason so many guys say they dont want a virgin boils down to a form of self martyrdom and lack of responsibility.

1. If things go south it is her fault bc she a hoe
2. If you lose her you lost nothing of value
3. You can be a lazy jerk bc she doesnt deserve anymore

(NOT saying it is true, but is some men’s thoughts)

Whereas with the virgin in theory

1. If things go south and she is good, it could be your fault
2. If you lose her good luck getting something that good again
3. She has brought maximum value as a woman so mustn’t you now bring maximum providing? Effort? Caring? Protection?

So if the last 3 are scary to you as a man, you have to choose to live in the top 3

 

[Xantippe]

I think too IF this is the case and with the disordered lot it probably is, the issue that I at least would want to see her propped up on her “own” at least to a degree because many times once set “free” men/women go buck wild lol.

TBH I am not sure how much I would trust sliding a woman straiggt from a house of her parents to mine. I have not the energy to “parent” so she would find herself all too free if she has any ability to go wild… and well that could end bad lol.

Male or female, I feel like there’s a lot to be said for a spouse having spent some time keeping house for themselves.

 

[SilverShadow22]

Is there even a guy who can actually wait for things to be serious before having a kiss?

But tbh i never really found kisses to be so important. Cute memory, yes, but I cannot imagine regretting a kiss?

I’m alone due to lack of opportunity

Well, yes he did. Being long distance we can’t measure seriousness in dates (only two total) but there’s been a massive amount of communication before, during, and after both of them (including video chat). He wanted to kiss me on that first meeting but I was too scared. So on the second date, I made up for it. and that’s the date where we became officially ‘serious’

ETA: well, if I had kissed anyone before him I could have regretted that he wasn’t my first one, especially if any prior experiences were in any way ‘bad’ or the subsequent breakup was hard.

 

[SilverShadow22]

Actually that is a good point I half made as I think about it.

The more someone is worth, the more responsible we are to them.

So since guys tend to value virginity, there are of course disordered virgin seekers… but…

The reason so many guys say they dont want a virgin boils down to a form of self martyrdom and lack of responsibility.

1. If things go south it is her fault bc she a hoe
2. If you lose her you lost nothing of value
3. You can be a lazy jerk bc she doesnt deserve anymore

(NOT saying it is true, but is some men’s thoughts)

Whereas with the virgin in theory

1. If things go south and she is good, it could be your fault
2. If you lose her good luck getting something that good again
3. She has brought maximum value as a woman so mustn’t you now bring maximum providing? Effort? Caring? Protection?

So if the last 3 are scary to you as a man, you have to choose to live in the top 3

You forgot ‘if you consume that valuable commodity but don’t keep her, you’ve just destroyed what can’t be restored.’

That means you either avoid virgins or do the much harder thing of not banging her before the honeymoon.

 

[LethalMouse]

Is there even a guy who can actually wait for things to be serious before having a kiss?

But tbh i never really found kisses to be so important. Cute memory, yes, but I cannot imagine regretting a kiss?

I’m alone due to lack of opportunity

Idk, even when being secular, I stuck to monogamous type hookup scenarios. Ie: long short term or so.

I will say yeah kissing a bit more lenient a few times but in general I preference to something at least with some interpersonal connection.

And I know alot of dudes like that so.