Virginity and marriage.

[LethalMouse]

I’m confused…first porn is addictive (at least for males), but now (for females, since the quoute was directed at a post regarding “mommy porn”) it’s “escapist media” and if it “gets to be too much…just shut the book”?

Everyone has a double standard.

But notably Starship was talking how society calls for men to be homogenous metro feminine men, while women still fantasize about alpha types.

Of course I would argue the interest in the 50 shades is a overcompensation to the disordered. In that the more the women seek Starship’s “beta” males, the more intense their fantasies.

Same for men in terms of fantasy versus what is available. When men see women in the real world as manly they seek a disordered version of femininity via rougher porn.

Which all goes to what I said earlier about what effects porn has verses what one can achieve in real life.

 

[LethalMouse]

You have all those girls saying they want a nice romantic beta guy who will treat them as equal, get affirmative consent, and then be a good Feminist/castrati. Then they turn around and buy a book about a 6’ billionaire who ties up women, dominates them, and does all manner of weird and freaky things to them.

Society and the like are sad indeed in this regard but it is not so black and white.

The things you read seek a disordered take on combating the wrongs.

There is a place to learn how to “be a man” one who can both be the alpha non feminist man AND not be into plate spinning or MGTOW or whatever insane bologna is out there.

It is when you figure out how to stand up on your own completely, I would say an often problem is assuming you identify as a “alpha” vs “beta” type… You are due to society and lack of example really a half an alpha.

The truth is there is much on your end to be that can allow you to step up and create a positive situation.

Not even some atheist feminist women who post on the topic:

" I am super powerful do what I want woman and never let a man do nothing! I just like that I found a man I respect and can defer to."

You see the contradiction? You see it with the 50 shades and it is there, but what you are missing is that you can command that respect because you deserve it.

That doesn’t mean every woman you date is going to work out, some just aren’t meant to be lol. But there is a responsibility on you.

You can’t be angry mean jerk guy, you can’t be soft ladylike. You are seeking to be both gentle and strong, wise and considerate, etc.

Since there is little example it is often hard to find the balance for young men, but I think there can be something said of finding God. And striving to be like Jesus.

Jesus who was no beta, but also was for sure no jerk.

 

[Lea101]

Everyone has a double standard.

But notably Starship was talking how society calls for men to be homogenous metro feminine men, while women still fantasize about alpha types.

Of course I would argue the interest in the 50 shades is a overcompensation to the disordered. In that the more the women seek Starship’s “beta” males, the more intense their fantasies.

Same for men in terms of fantasy versus what is available. When men see women in the real world as manly they seek a disordered version of femininity via rougher porn.

Which all goes to what I said earlier about what effects porn has verses what one can achieve in real life.

Yesssss. You got it lol

I’m a girl and I notice a LOT of my friends will want to be seen as 1000000% equal (not in terms of respect or worth and opportunity to succeed, which I’m all for, but equal in the sense that there are literally no difference between both sexes besides genitalia). But then you’ll see them RTing tweets like “when bae orders you to come here omg!!1!! So cute and possessive!!1!”. Meanwhile, guys rt stuff like “when your girl actually agrees with you without giving you an attitude”

I personally believe it comes from a place of vulnerability. We (I say we because I tend to slip into this) hate it when guys try to be authoritative and possessive because there’s always a possibility of the guy becoming a tyrant. And girls find it hard to accept that because there’s always a possibility of becoming a doormat. So when filth like 50 shades comes out-a dominant and a woman who is smart mouthed yet submits at times, they go crazy (I do remember a lot of feminists on social media boycotting it though, so at least they’re fighting for that instead of free contraception). Or in relationships, they go crazy for someone who has those qualities but use for issues they already agree on so it’s ‘safe to agree’. My 2 cents

Not that guys should demand women they know to submit, but you know what I mean

 

[Sarcelle]

Yesssss. You got it lol

I’m a girl and I notice a LOT of my friends will want to be seen as 1000000% equal (not in terms of respect or worth and opportunity to succeed, which I’m all for, but equal in the sense that there are literally no difference between both sexes besides genitalia). But then you’ll see them RTing tweets like “when bae orders you to come here omg!!1!! So cute and possessive!!1!”. Meanwhile, guys rt stuff like “when your girl actually agrees with you without giving you an attitude”

I personally believe it comes from a place of vulnerability. We (I say we because I tend to slip into this) hate it when guys try to be authoritative and possessive because there’s always a possibility of the guy becoming a tyrant. And girls find it hard to accept that because there’s always a possibility of becoming a doormat. So when filth like 50 shades comes out-a dominant and a woman who is smart mouthed yet submits at times, they go crazy (I do remember a lot of feminists on social media boycotting it though, so at least they’re fighting for that instead of free contraception). Or in relationships, they go crazy for someone who has those qualities but use for issues they already agree on so it’s ‘safe to agree’. My 2 cents

Not that guys should demand women they know to submit, but you know what I mean

Fifty Shades of Gray is porn for women.

I am glad I have not read it and do not intend to do so. I also do not have to read it to know it is junk.

I have never been enamored by possessive bad boy types.

Never have, never will.

Marriage to me is more like two complementary halves coming together as a team. My parents’ marriage comes to mind. Their marriage was not perfect but they worked together well as a team with my mother’s strengths complementing my father’s strengths.

 

[LethalMouse]

Yesssss. You got it lol

I’m a girl and I notice a LOT of my friends will want to be seen as 1000000% equal (not in terms of respect or worth and opportunity to succeed, which I’m all for, but equal in the sense that there are literally no difference between both sexes besides genitalia). But then you’ll see them RTing tweets like “when bae orders you to come here omg!!1!! So cute and possessive!!1!”. Meanwhile, guys rt stuff like “when your girl actually agrees with you without giving you an attitude”

I personally believe it comes from a place of vulnerability. We (I say we because I tend to slip into this) hate it when guys try to be authoritative and possessive because there’s always a possibility of the guy becoming a tyrant. And girls find it hard to accept that because there’s always a possibility of becoming a doormat. So when filth like 50 shades comes out-a dominant and a woman who is smart mouthed yet submits at times, they go crazy (I do remember a lot of feminists on social media boycotting it though, so at least they’re fighting for that instead of free contraception). Or in relationships, they go crazy for someone who has those qualities but use for issues they already agree on so it’s ‘safe to agree’. My 2 cents

Not that guys should demand women they know to submit, but you know what I mean

One cannot lead if they cannot follow.

Jesus was the leader and came to serve but not be served.

These tweets for example can happen in either ordered or disordered fashions.

Today mostly disordered

There is a question if Jesus when serving lost or gained power?

Also, not the battle cries of me me me from certain movements.

I am powerful hear me roar…

And yet Jesus said the first will be last.

So why then would they seek to be first?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This is a very insulting statement to male virgins.

Football star Tim Tebow recently was dumped by his so-called Catholic girlfriend because he would not give in to her desires for fornication. So there’s one example that disproves your statement. And I’d like to see those posters who are making the conection male virgin = porn addict accuse him of being a porn addict in person.

I don’t know what it is with virgins that threatens some of you people that you have to engage in calumny/detraction (or whatever the technical term for the false assumptions that are being made).

Most virgins don’t have Tebow’s looks, money, or opportunity. So often, the male virgins on this site are the same guys that complain that women won’t give them the time of day. It is very hard to look at the bitterness and entitlement of so many of the “I deserve a virgin” crowd and not think they’re deluding themselves that their lack of romantic and sexual prospects is actually a reflection of their self-control and virtue.

 

[Lea101]

One cannot lead if they cannot follow.

Jesus was the leader and came to serve but not be served.

These tweets for example can happen in either ordered or disordered fashions.

Today mostly disordered

There is a question if Jesus when serving lost or gained power?

Also, not the battle cries of me me me from certain movements.

I am powerful hear me roar…

And yet Jesus said the first will be last.

So why then would they seek to be first?

That is easier said than done tbh. I mean hey, guys here also complain about misandry!

Feminism started because society really needed it, and then feminists started finding weird solutions to problems we recognize (“men get praised for having sex while women are shamed for it??? Let’s have sex as much as we want and praise each other for it!!1!”). Of course they are doing some things that are right (eg fighting for women of other races to be represented respectfully, fighting against beauty standards etc) BUT you know what I mean.

I wouldn’t say that everyone should keep quiet because the last will be the first, I don’t think God will be upset if we as humans raise awareness for things that are against our faith (racism and sexism, for example). The problem is that humans really, really, really love extremism and they forget that they were fighting for equality, not superiority. Only a miracle will prevent this

 

[Xantippe]

I’m confused…first porn is addictive (at least for males), but now (for females, since the quoute was directed at a post regarding “mommy porn”) it’s “escapist media” and if it “gets to be too much…just shut the book”?

Well, this is the subjective experience.

Ditto for porn actually. Porn asks NOTHING of the viewer. Porn won’t ask you to take a shower, take out the trash, mow the lawn, help with the baby, remember it’s birthday, etc. And hence, it’s a very difficult medium for a flesh-and-blood woman to compete with. She has needs–it doesn’t.

(And for LM–yes there are plenty of men who choose porn over wives–in fact that’s one of the saddest complaints about it–that they aren’t interested in marital sex anymore.)

 

[Xantippe]

**But if we are strictly referring to 50 shades, people were “okay” with it bc the male protagonist, minus the bdam part of him, was very sensitive and protective. (Don’t judge me, I read the trilogy to see the hype. It’s trash, obviously. Didn’t get hooked on it, surprisingly). And in the 2nd and 3rd book he makes an effort to change for her, they get married, they communicate etc. It’s the ultimate fantasy girls have “Maybe I could change him” **
Him, being the bad boy. I would say it’s not the same as regular porn in general (as in why people like those books, but it’s definitely not ‘not porn’. Those books are fiiiilthy)

Lea–I’m glad somebody has actually read the book, because those were very helpful observations.

That dream of taming the bad boy is pure fantasy, too, but it’s not purely sexual fantasy.

 

[Xantippe]

To be fair…your statement did not disprove his statement. He didn’t say all male virgins are virgins who had no opportunity, he said that not all male virgins are virtuous men. Which is obviously true. So your example just shows that there are different types of virgins-those who choose to wait, those who would do it but cannot get a girl to do it with.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

Everyone has a double standard.

But notably Starship was talking how society calls for men to be homogenous metro feminine men, while women still fantasize about alpha types.

Of course I would argue the interest in the 50 shades is a overcompensation to the disordered. In that the more the women seek Starship’s “beta” males, the more intense their fantasies.

Same for men in terms of fantasy versus what is available. When men see women in the real world as manly they seek a disordered version of femininity via rougher porn.

Which all goes to what I said earlier about what effects porn has verses what one can achieve in real life.

Some do, some don’t.

Some women like skinny intellectual types. Some like androgynous boy band types. Some (unfortunately) even like 13-year-old boys–that’s one of the basic mistakes of the Red Pill, by the way, is the not noticing how varied people’s attraction can be.

And a good thing, too–otherwise we’d all die out like pandas.

 

[LethalMouse]

That is easier said than done tbh. I mean hey, guys here also complain about misandry!

Feminism started because society really needed it, and then feminists started finding weird solutions to problems we recognize (“men get praised for having sex while women are shamed for it??? Let’s have sex as much as we want and praise each other for it!!1!”). Of course they are doing some things that are right (eg fighting for women of other races to be represented respectfully, fighting against beauty standards etc) BUT you know what I mean.

I wouldn’t say that everyone should keep quiet because the last will be the first, I don’t think God will be upset if we as humans raise awareness for things that are against our faith (racism and sexism, for example). The problem is that humans really, really, really love extremism and they forget that they were fighting for equality, not superiority. Only a miracle will prevent this

That is the point! Lol

The only thing is finding the balance and there is much in the way of human denial. Also noting here you basically totally agree with me but you mentioned a few “positives” that are particularly near and dear to your heart. And more local centric.

Now the question is thise issues that mean so much to you, if they are fought for disordered, are you really equipped to see it?

I mean many from my posts on this topic probably half thought I was into this red pill stuff Starship is on about.

Clearly I disagree with him and them.

I have plenty of reasons available to have the same issues or more than he and they have. I have been on the butt end of much bad.

But luckily? Idk if that is the word LOL I am mildly unique in my level of denial skills. Therefore no matter how comforting what they say might seem to my existence I cannot ignore its falsehoods, pitfalls and slight (yes often the issues are hard to discern) but slight alterations on what is actually good.

Like a pope said on heresy, someone who speaks falsely is less dangerous than someone who speaks almost the whole truth with only a tiny falsehood. It is then like a drop of poison in a cup of good drink.

It is easy to see a cup of poison, but hard to see a drop of it in a cup of coffee

People need to drop their biases and selfishness and cast aside these drops.

We should all be working for eachother and not for “us” vs “them”

 

[LethalMouse]

Some do, some don’t.

Some women like skinny intellectual types. Some like androgynous boy band types. Some (unfortunately) even like 13-year-old boys–that’s one of the basic mistakes of the Red Pill, by the way, is the not noticing how varied people’s attraction can be.

And a good thing, too–otherwise we’d all die out like pandas.

It isn’t always that simple. But in most situations they seek if not disoreded (really hard to count anyone raised in our society as ordered lol)

But hard to tell, I mean one women on this or the other current thread used math skills as an examole.

Truth is the nerd girl tends to seek the bigger nerd as most often the gym girl seeks the bigger gym guy.

But like a box of gloves, one size rarely fits all, but still most. If it didnt fit most by numbers the company would go out of business…

Also in all things remember if we talk of exceptions we know of Angels right?

We know what they do and what they are.

We also know there are Angels that act contrary… not my role models

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Lea–I’m glad somebody has actually read the book, because those were very helpful observations.

That dream of taming the bad boy is pure fantasy, too, but it’s not purely sexual fantasy.

The taming the bad boy is a fantasy. It can be without sex. But this specific book and trilogy has lots of sex in it, and quite descriptive not just implied.

I’ve not read the entire book. I’m a married women for almost 20 years, so Christian Grey comes across as cartoonish, spoiled and stalkerish.

It bothers me that Lea is a teen and read these things.

Sex isn’t like that, men who are like that are criminal.

And I don’t think shutting the book ends it.

Once you get certain images in your mind, you cannot just will them away.

I know from my Romance Novel days, and subsequent erotica, what I remember from the books is not the plot (basically the same) but the variations of how descriptive the author could be while using euphemisms.

I actually do remember the plot of one of the books. It was about a wrongfully accused cowboy who was implicated in a robbery. The heroine helped clear his name and find the actual perpetrator.

I think my post is off topic by a bit.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think too much in the sense that it makes the reader feel uncomfortable at the idea of bdsm sex. Which is true. You want a sweet guy. You read the book. Don’t like it? Stop reading.

But IMO like regular porn, it’s the whole frog in the water analogy (you slowly heat up the water, the frog dies).

But if we are strictly referring to 50 shades, people were “okay” with it bc the male protagonist, minus the bdam part of him, was very sensitive and protective. (Don’t judge me, I read the trilogy to see the hype. It’s trash, obviously. Didn’t get hooked on it, surprisingly). And in the 2nd and 3rd book he makes an effort to change for her, they get married, they communicate etc. It’s the ultimate fantasy girls have “Maybe I could change him”
Him, being the bad boy. I would say it’s not the same as regular porn in general (as in why people like those books, but it’s definitely not ‘not porn’. Those books are fiiiilthy)

Not being judgmental, but you needed to read all three books to realize they were smutty?

I taught high school a number of years ago. The fantasy of changing the bad boy to good is dangerous.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well, this is the subjective experience.

It may be your experience but it is not that of mine, but of others such as Mary Gail 36. I know it is a stereotype that “women just don’t struggle with sexual sin the way men do” and while that is often used by men to demonize women who DO commit sexual sin as evil, it’s also been used by many women to minimize their own culpability for sexual sin, such as the one mentioned who stated she still felt like a virgin because she had never climaxed.

What I think is being lost here is that, just as all women are not the same when it comes to sexuality, some are more prone to sins of lust than others, that is the case for men, too. Not all men have the exact same libido.

In secular society, where there is little stigma to women indulging in porn, many women are frank about being turned on by porn themselves. The stereotype of women being “less visual” is just that, a stereotype, there are many women who do drool over shirtless muscular men who appear on TV, movies, etc.

As for Tim Tebow, I agree with **BEL **that most male virgins are not in Tim Tebow’s league in terms of what women consider alluring, but if the story of a woman dumping him for not having sex is true, then obviously his looks, celebrity, wealth, etc. were not enough to keep that particular woman around, or for all we know it was actually him who did the dumping.

Although if we’re mentioning star QBs who believe in chastity, I recall the QB Russell Wilson has also stated such a belief in chastity, yet he did marry a woman who already had a child out of wedlock, I don’t know if Wilson himself was a virgin at marriage, or one who wasn’t but repented, but either way he certainly didn’t hold the now-Mrs. Wilson’s past against her.

Ditto for porn actually. Porn asks NOTHING of the viewer. Porn won’t ask you to take a shower, take out the trash, mow the lawn, help with the baby, remember it’s birthday, etc. And hence, it’s a very difficult medium for a flesh-and-blood woman to compete with. She
has needs–it doesn’t.

Well, I’d say that in this case the fantasy many men indulge in via porn, also is not “purely sexual fantasy” either. Indeed, it makes sense that many men who view porn want not only a virgin wife, but a “traditional” or “submissive” one who will just give give give without actually asking for anything in return.

Lea–I’m glad somebody has actually read the book, because those were very helpful observations.

That dream of taming the bad boy is pure fantasy, too, but it’s not purely sexual fantasy.

Well, I haven’t read that particular book, knowing it was originally a Twilight fanfic was enough for me NOT to waste my money, but my sister did, she actually read all the books in the series, and she did think they were porn.

I guess the “are romance/erotica novels porn” discussion is somewhat of a tangent but I think it is still an example of double standards. It is a pet peeve of mine for men to hold women to double standards on sex, but that doesn’t make it right for women to do the same thing. And the idea that “men who view porn are lustful losers who aren’t fit for marriage” but it’s perfectly fine for women to indulge in written erotic works, to me IS a double standard.

 

[Strydersroom]

The whole point of this thread is quite moot imo. It’s funny how when people hear “Virginity” they immediately equate “Female.” But as mentioned before, virginity should have nothing to do with marriage. Past relationships/masturbation/partners etc should not matter if you fall in love with someone and want to marry them. Period. Male or female, gay or straight.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I would say that it depends on just how ‘bad’ he was to begin with.

Marriage is itself a form of salvation. Marriage is the ‘cure’ for concupiscence - which is why denying the marital debt is so grievous. It’s a place of safety for legitimizing sexual passions.

It is a ‘dangerous’ fantasy only when it is unrealistic or delusional. If she does indeed see him change in small, good ways for her, if she sees how she has ‘saved’ him in small but meaningful ways because they love each other - isn’t this exactly what Christian love, let alone married love, is supposed to do? Shouldn’t it change her, too? Because now they have to put each other first. They put themselves second but because they are each doing it, each are first.

If love doesn’t change you somehow, it isn’t love.

 

[LethalMouse]

Not being judgmental, but you needed to read all three books to realize they were smutty?

I taught high school a number of years ago. The fantasy of changing the bad boy to good is dangerous.

I think to use Jesus as an example what some women see is Jesus in the temple whipping and flipping. They then see his girlfriend “change” him.

Never realizing there is good “bad” and bad bad.

Essentially in simple form it is dating the gang guy instead of the cop that is the danger. The cop is actually tougher than the gang guy but he doesn’t walk with a hop, he walks slow and tactical.

 

[Lea101]

It bothers me that Lea is a teen and read these things.

I read the book because some feminists found it anti feminist bc of the abuse, the other retorted back that while the first book is ‘abusive’, the 2nd and 3rd shows character development and addressed his toxic view against women.

So I read all 3 books bc I wanted to form my opinion. It was torture lol. The sex ‘scenes’ were soooo awkward, it was so hard for me to be aroused. The non sex parts are also poorly written. But by looking at the plot, the women defending the book had a point (as in, both of them were right)

Basically the guy was abused as a child, his mother was a prostitute, he then watched her die and was trapped with her corpse for days (alone). Was then adopted. A family friend then sexually abused him when he was 15 (bdsm). He then got into the whole disgusting kink. He does it to brunettes because his mother was a brunette. He then met the female protagonist. He fell in love with her. She left him because she realized what a weirdo he was. He then begged her to come back and he started to change and boom, the bdsm started to be for her pleasure not punishment. He started to whine whenever he saw marks and bruises on her body after ahem-their sessions. Got married, had kids blah blah.

He was still a creep though. I don’t know if I’m just being a typical feminist and it is considered normal but he was having hissy fits over stuff like her wanting to keep her last name and wanting to buy over the company she was working for. CREEP. While you can argue that he still loves her and he would die for her in a heartbeat, he is still a creep and terrible writing aside, it bothered me when people gush over him.

Shame though, because the actor, Jamie Dornan is a wonderful actor in other shows and he has so much love for his wife (was watching interviews, he always finds a way to bring her up as if to remind his fans that he is taken) And Dakota Johnson seems like an amazing person. From the trailer I saw, his acting looked terrible, I’m NOT gonna watch it though. I don’t want to wash my eyeballs with holy water.

BUT I digress,

I would agree that erotica is trash and it can be a problem for women struggling with lust

50 shades was supposed to be a fanfiction for twilight. That explains a LOT lol! But you are right in the sense that the main focus was the sex, the plot, like other erotica, is there to retain readers and keep them reading for 3 books. It’s definitely not a story with sex scenes, it’s sex with a story.

I just wanted to bring up the point that the reason why it did so well wasn’t solely because of the sex but sex+the “maybe I can change him” fantasy