Virginity/Stoning

[mariahloves]

I’ve come across a Bible verse that deeply disturbs me:

“If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

So I’m assuming “proof of virginity” means an intact hymen and/or a bloody sheet on wedding night?

The hymen has nothing to do with virginity except usually if a hymen is intact, it indicates she has not had sexual intercourse. However a hymen not being intact doesn’t mean a woman has had sexual intercourse. It can broken by many non sexual, non sinful activities.

So if a woman’s hymen broke without sinning back in ancient Israel she would be stoned to death. Doesn’t God know hymens aren’t an indicator of virginity? Can someone help with this?

Also: do men get stoned if they’re promiscuous and how do we know if they were?

 

[rep140]

I’ve come across a Bible verse that deeply disturbs me:

That would disturb anyone. I think that you have to look at the culture at the time the bible was written. The authors had images of God and justice that reflected their society. The Catholic Church considers the bible an inspired work that contains truths needed for salvation. What you mention has no relation to salvation.

I think you should look at the Old Testament as written by a people trying to develop an understanding of what has been revealed to them. It is not until the Books of Wisdom
(Proverbs, Job, and a couple others) that you see the development of the concept of an afterlife. Proverbs especially provides guidance of how one should lead their life.

The quicker you get out of Deut. the better. The same with Leviticus.

 

[JVD]

I’ve come across a Bible verse that deeply disturbs me:

“If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

So I’m assuming “proof of virginity” means an intact hymen and/or a bloody sheet on wedding night?

The hymen has nothing to do with virginity except usually if a hymen is intact, it indicates she has not had sexual intercourse. However a hymen not being intact doesn’t mean a woman has had sexual intercourse. It can broken by many non sexual, non sinful activities.

So if a woman’s hymen broke without sinning back in ancient Israel she would be stoned to death. Doesn’t God know hymens aren’t an indicator of virginity? Can someone help with this?

Also: do men get stoned if they’re promiscuous and how do we know if they were?

I wouldn’t get too worried or upset here. You also need to remember that in the ancient Jewish times women did not do the heavy labor nor were athletically active as are modern women. None rode a horse or engaged in activities where they would be at much risk of compromising their physical virginity. They also often married much younger - in early to mid teens which also mitigates the probability of accidents. If a young woman lost her physical virginity it was a pretty safe bet that she was abused or involved in an illicit union of some kind. I suspect that some women who were in this situation elected not to marry and remain single to prevent the shame from becoming public.

I am no scholar of Jewish tradition and law but imagine that this entire scenario only came into play if the husband actually made the charge after the the wedding night. I think we can assume that if a young woman had an unfortunate accident in her youth where her status as a virgin was made suspect that her mother would be privately told and her mother would investigate. The young woman’s parents who were traditionally match makers would have likely already had arrangements to have her married to young man from the days of her childhood. So her parents would probably elect to make these facts know to the parents of their betrothed parents and discussions made on how to prevent a scandal.

It would be up to the judgement of the betrothed young man’s parents to discern if there was a deception to cover up an illicit activity or even a rape (in which case there would be a serious charge made against who ever defiled the betrothed - a criminal act). As an aside I’d be curious to talk to a Jewish historian to find out out what the conventions were for Jewish rape victims and how society dealt with them - did they ever marry or were they outcasts or given special exceptions?

Again, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the two betrothed families knew each other well enough to know from the disappointment on the face of the young woman (being a virgin was a source pride to young Jewish women) and their life circumstances and character if it was completely an innocent accident or not. This information would be kept confidential among the betrothed and either accepted or else the betrothal would be cancelled. A rabbi might even be counseled to interview the woman and he might determine that the woman was innocent and suitable for marriage.

I have no historic insight to draw on here but suspect that dowries may have been increased to make such unfortunate things more acceptable to a young man and his family to compensate for the disappointment since being able to show the proof viz the marital sheets was a Jewish custom (I am told). Here we can only imagine how many Jewish marriages had false evidence prepared on the eve of the big event and why slaughtered livestock was so popular at the wedding feasts .

We really need to get a Jewish expert historian to comment here to get more insight. But I really doubt very many Jewish women were stoned to death. Why would a woman marry into her own death sentence? It makes no sense to marry if the laws were 100% strict and if one could not produce the evidence. This is probably where the term “settle” came from and I bet a lot of ugly-duckling Jewish young men got a lot of beautiful young Jewish brides by “settling” and taking an extra chicken or two for a dowery.

James

 

[Rence]

I’ve come across a Bible verse that deeply disturbs me:

“If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

So I’m assuming “proof of virginity” means an intact hymen and/or a bloody sheet on wedding night?

The hymen has nothing to do with virginity except usually if a hymen is intact, it indicates she has not had sexual intercourse. However a hymen not being intact doesn’t mean a woman has had sexual intercourse. It can broken by many non sexual, non sinful activities.

So if a woman’s hymen broke without sinning back in ancient Israel she would be stoned to death. Doesn’t God know hymens aren’t an indicator of virginity? Can someone help with this?

Also: do men get stoned if they’re promiscuous and how do we know if they were?

No, men were not stoned if they were promiscuous, because the rules didn’t apply to them.

About the hymen thing: a young muslim girl had to have surgery in a hospital I worked in years ago. I don’t remember exactly what the procedure was because it’s been a few years. But I do remember that the surgery could be done vaginally, or through the abdominal wall. The doctor was told that because this muslim girl had to be able to prove she was a virgin on her wedding night, that the procedure had to be done via the abdominal wall. Evidently, the doctor forgot and did it vaginally And a big hooplaa resulted and the president of the hospital was notified and a big deal was made. And the end result was that a letter had to be drawn up and notarized explaining that the doctor performed the surgery vaginally and therefore broke an intact hymen. I don’t know what ever came of that girl, and granted, this was not a Jew or Catholic, but Muslim laws dictate over women’s chastity very harshly.

I think that’s why when Joseph found out that Mary was pregnant and they weren’t married yet, that he decided to divorce her quietly rather than bring her to the authorities to be stoned. Then of course, the angel appeared to him in a dream and told him not fear marrying Mary…you know the rest of the story.

I’m sure women were brought up on charges of adultery and promiscuity, they didn’t have a very good understanding of anatomy and physiology at the time. And women did do heavy labor…buckets of water and milk are indeed heavy and were carried wherever they needed to be…just to give one example. I think that the words in the Gospel saying that Joseph was a “just man” and decided not to bring her to the authorities kind of speaks for itself that it did indeed happen

 

[mariahloves]

The quicker you get out of Deut. the better. The same with Leviticus.

I know right? These two books are the hardest to cope with. Definetely hard to explain.

Rence

No, men were not stoned if they were promiscuous, because the rules didn’t apply to them

That seems unfair, doesn’t it? I can tell you’re not really defending this though. Does it bother you too?

 

[Luke_K]

Also: do men get stoned if they’re promiscuous and how do we know if they were?

No, men were not stoned if they were promiscuous, because the rules didn’t apply to them.

That is totally false. Read the immediate following verses (the rest in the chapter). The men got stoned, too.

rep140:

The quicker you get out of Deut. the better. The same with Leviticus.

I actually liked Deuteronomy. After all, Jesus himself quoted from it in response to Satan’s temptations in the desert.

 

[rwoehmke]

Those things were a part of the Mosiac or Noahide Law that became obsolete with the birth of Christianity. They find their echo in the Sharia Law of Islam today. The only portions of the Old Testament Law that remained in effect for Christians were those items based on Natural law, for example, the Ten Commandments. The Jews were not the only culture with some rather inhumane laws in those times, a prime example was Crucifixion as practiced by the Romans or perhaps impalement, practiced in the Slavic territories. It is only in contemporary Western society that some worry about cruel and unusual punishments for violation of the mores of society.

 

[mariahloves]

The point is not a woman would be stoned for sinning, but that they used the hymen as a sign of virginity but it’s unreliable. God knows this. Why would God’s inspired Word instruct people to use this a method of determining virginity or lack thereof?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The point is not a woman would be stoned for sinning, but that they used the hymen as a sign of virginity but it’s unreliable. God knows this. Why would God’s inspired Word instruct people to use this a method of determining virginity or lack thereof?

but you were the one who spoke about the hymen. there are other ways to determine.

So I’m assuming “proof of virginity” means an intact hymen and/or a bloody sheet on wedding

the verse states proof, not proof by intact hymen,

 

[mariahloves]

but you were the one who spoke about the hymen. there are other ways to determine.

the verse states proof, not proof by intact hymen,

So what way did they use to prove if a female was a virgin or not?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, I found this on The Jewish Women’s Archive site:

*WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND CLINICAL DETAILED DESCRIPTION

It should be noted that the claim of not finding the woman to be a virgin is not simple from a physiological point of view. Some women do not have a hymen and sometimes the blood supply to the hymen is minimal, which results in very little blood available to be shown as evidence of virginity. The two signs given in the Shulhan Arukh (E.H. 68:3) for the virgin: blood flowing after the first act of intercourse and the pressure needed for penetration, are not necessarily universal and are quite subjective. The fact that adult men were marrying pubescent girls or girls just prior to puberty makes it more likely that the so-called proof of virginity was actually evidence of a vaginal tear because sufficient hormonal stimulation to the vaginal mucosa was not yet available to allow vaginal expansion during arousal to accommodate penetration without injury. It is also very likely that there were cultural aspects to virginity that added to the proof of virginity (e.g. cries of pain). Moreover, there is also a long history of deception in regard to virginity, including using the blood of an animal on the bedding.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You also haven’t noted the context around this verse.

In Jewish law, if a girl is attacked and there is nobody else around, it is considered a rape (and therefore, she would not be subject to the law about virginity. Rather, her attacker rapist would be punished, often with death).

If she is attacked and there are people around but she does not cry out, it is considered consent.

You have to realize, that they did not ‘line up girls’ the day after a wedding and start barking, “Did she bleed? No? Well, there is no proof of virginity–stone her”

Because most girls did indeed come to marriage as virgins.

But in the rare cases where there was a question–for the peace of mind of both man and woman, there were certain legal procedures etc. to follow.

Should there be no ‘proof’. . .then the question might be,“were you attacked?”
And if so. . .well, if she was attacked out in the fields and nobody saw. . .it would be considered a rape. And she would not be stoned because she was raped.

If she says she was not attacked, well, then, she will probably be watched very carefully, but she won’t just be thrown out because “she didn’t bleed” as if there was nothing else for people to do after a marriage but to 'check for proof of virginity and to punish any woman who wasn’t ‘pure.’

 

[mariahloves]

Well, I found this on The Jewish Women’s Archive site:

*WARNING EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AND CLINICAL DETAILED DESCRIPTION

It should be noted that the claim of not finding the woman to be a virgin is not simple from a physiological point of view. Some women do not have a hymen and sometimes the blood supply to the hymen is minimal, which results in very little blood available to be shown as evidence of virginity. The two signs given in the Shulhan Arukh (E.H. 68:3) for the virgin: blood flowing after the first act of intercourse and the pressure needed for penetration, are not necessarily universal and are quite subjective. The fact that adult men were marrying pubescent girls or girls just prior to puberty makes it more likely that the so-called proof of virginity was actually evidence of a vaginal tear because sufficient hormonal stimulation to the vaginal mucosa was not yet available to allow vaginal expansion during arousal to accommodate penetration without injury. It is also very likely that there were cultural aspects to virginity that added to the proof of virginity (e.g. cries of pain). Moreover, there is also a long history of deception in regard to virginity, including using the blood of an animal on the bedding.

Um, that’s even worse. That’s disgusting…did God condone that?

 

[juliamajor]

Any death sentence case required the testimoney of three eyewitnesses.no eyewitness to fornication-no death penalty.Hearsay was not allowed,nor was physical evidence.Many of these laws seem unduly harsh but in reality the application of death was rare due to the rarity of getting three corroborating witnesses.

 

[kepha1]

but you were the one who spoke about the hymen. there are other ways to determine.

the verse states proof, not proof by intact hymen,

The ancient rabbis had a test to see if a woman was a virgin. It’s in Numbers 5:11-22

There is something interesting in the Protoevangelium of James because the scribe Annas uses the same test on Mary and Joseph!

15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why hast thou not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest, and said to him: Joseph, whom thou didst vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and thou wilt find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why hast thou done this? and why hast thou brought thy soul low, and forgotten the Lord thy God? Thou that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel, and didst hear the hymns, and didst dance before Him, why hast thou done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why hast thou done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord liveth, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. Thou hast married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed thy head under the strong hand, that thy seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.

16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, (the same as in Numbers 5) and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.

It may not be canonical, but it sure is beautiful.

 

[budgie2]

I’ve come across a Bible verse that deeply disturbs me:

“If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.” Deuteronomy 22:20-21

So I’m assuming “proof of virginity” means an intact hymen and/or a bloody sheet on wedding night?

The hymen has nothing to do with virginity except usually if a hymen is intact, it indicates she has not had sexual intercourse. However a hymen not being intact doesn’t mean a woman has had sexual intercourse. It can broken by many non sexual, non sinful activities.

So if a woman’s hymen broke without sinning back in ancient Israel she would be stoned to death. Doesn’t God know hymens aren’t an indicator of virginity? Can someone help with this?

Also: do men get stoned if they’re promiscuous and how do we know if they were?

A hymen can be broken by things like tampax and masturbation and inserting foreign objects like dildos and vibrators. A woman shouldn’t deliberately break her hymen before she loses her virginity and should avoid using those things.

 

[Rence]

I know right? These two books are the hardest to cope with. Definetely hard to explain.

Rence

That seems unfair, doesn’t it? I can tell you’re not really defending this though. Does it bother you too?

You know what? I need to change my answer a bit. When my brother was in a high school preparatory seminary, he told me that he would never date a virgin because in the Bible it says that there will be stiff punishment from God if a man took a virgin’s virginity (of course this doesn’t apply to her husband). So he always made a point (right or wrong) of not dating virgins. Such rationalizations are in the minds of some teenage boys

Now, I do remember reading something like that but it was years ago, and I don’t know where it is now. I’ll try to look it up later. But I remembered this last night at like 1am and just wanted to clarify my post

But YES, the double standard (even in the Bible) has always been a bit…disgusting…to me. I just try to ignore it. Remember that the Bible, though inspired by God, was put together by men. And I just wonder what’s in the Vatican library that wasn’t included in the Bible. Methinks men don’t have it so easy, when one looks at everything together, especially when you consider the Church’s rules on premarital/extramarital sex, marriage, ABCs and all that. There’s no doubt in my mind that when a man ‘mind-messes’ with a girl to get into bed with her, that he will be punished for hurting her so badly and disgracing her. Either this life, or the next. Remember, it was a man’s world back then. As the world started “growing up” you had to answer to family for taking advantage of a girl, which led to gunshot weddings and such. Unfortunately, the brunt of the burden for bad choices, intentional or not, falls on the woman because she’s the one who will end up pregnant. There’s no physical way to prove a man has been chaste or not. When you have “proof” of sorts, it’s easier to be harsh on someone to doesn’t follow the rules.

 

[Rence]

but you were the one who spoke about the hymen. there are other ways to determine.

the verse states proof, not proof by intact hymen,

How do you prove virginity without a hymen? Years ago, my ob-gyn said the “hymen” was a myth, which I didn’t believe. But I’d be interested in knowning how one can tell that a woman is or is not a virgin without an intact hymen?

 

[Rence]

A hymen can be broken by things like tampax and masturbation and inserting foreign objects like dildos and vibrators. A woman shouldn’t deliberately break her hymen before she loses her virginity and should avoid using those things.

It can also be broken by gymnastics and sports. And many girls where tampons these days, from very early. It makes life a lot less limiting. If you have parents who are worried about it, and not many did when I was growing up, you’re probably going to be using them.

 

[EphelDuath]

It is my opinion that God made the Mosaic Law intentionally harsh in order to demonstrate just how merciful the New Covenant is.

Nevertheless, please remember that the world is not a just place, and that true justice can only be found in the afterlife; therefore, the argument that “bad things happen, so how can God exist?” is flawed in that it does not consider the Kingdom of Heaven.

God bless.