Vision Quests

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Mods here, I realize that I called someone an a s s. Go ahead and give me an infraction. What he said to me was by far more offensive and by far mroe disrepectful, so go and ban him if you give me an infraction.
 
estesbob said:
Based on who’s interperation of the Bible?
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What did you think it meant when God said “My kingdom is not of this world”? I base it on the Catholic churches version. Yes, I go to a catholic school and hear things like this everyday. Are you saying you don’t believe this? It’s in the bible and in all forms of Christianity.
 
blacktiger057 said:
But before you said that searching inside yourself was evil and danergous. Why is it?
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Have you not read one post of mine? I never said it was *evil. *I did say it was dangerous because there is alot of garbage we let into our lives. Do you think that if someone who is a porn addict can search within themselves to find God? No, the grace of God must be invited in to clean the soul so it can flourish.

Anyone who has ever had a house plant can tell you that if too much dust and dirt gets on the leaves, that light will be prevented from reaching the leaves and the plant will eventually die. The soul is no different. The soul will die if the grace of God is not let in.

Catholicism has sacraments that do this. But if an RCIA program is what you want, you would have to consult a local Church or check out the Catholic Answers library.
 
blacktiger057 said:
Mods here, I realize that I called someone an a s s. Go ahead and give me an infraction. What he said to me was by far more offensive and by far mroe disrepectful, so go and ban him if you give me an infraction.
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So if we question your beliefs we should be banned?
 
estesbob said:
So if we question your beliefs we should be banned?
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No, I never questioned my beliefs. WHat are you talking about? It’s fine to questions other’s beliefs, but to say that yours are right and they are wrong and stupid and confused just doesn’t seem acceptable to me.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
Have you not read one post of mine? I never said it was *evil. *I did say it was dangerous because there is alot of garbage we let into our lives. Do you think that if someone who is a porn addict can search within themselves to find God? No, the grace of God must be invited in to clean the soul so it can flourish.

Anyone who has ever had a house plant can tell you that if too much dust and dirt gets on the leaves, that light will be prevented from reaching the leaves and the plant will eventually die. The soul is no different. The soul will die if the grace of God is not let in.

Catholicism has sacraments that do this. But if an RCIA program is what you want, you would have to consult a local Church or check out the Catholic Answers library.
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God is always there. But his presence gets clouded behind so many thigns, so often times we must search for him within us to find him. The porn addict should search inside himself as well. Why is he doing this? What does he have to gain by this? These are some soul searchign questions we must ask ourselves.
 
It breaks my heart to see people ignore their rich Catholic heritage and adopt such cheap fads…😦
 
blacktiger057 said:
what exactly do you mean by that comment, Genesis?
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What people are trying to get from these “vision quests” can be found in such more profund depth and power in Catholic spirituality–the spirituality of the religion that actually leads to intimate communion with God. To neglect that and instead adopt the practice of a religion that does not lead to God, but has become a recent fad primarily amongst those who have rejected the yolk of Christ, is just very depressing.

It’s as if one’s Father handed down a family heirloom of the highest quality which had been in the family for centuries, and then the child-heir throws it out and goes and buys a new fabricated knock-off instead because it seems like the popular thing to do.

It’s heartbreaking to see my brethren in Christ do that 😦
 
I will agree with Genesis that many people are drawn by the lure of the exotic without realizing or thinking to look within their own traditions for something that already exists. For some reason we seem to almost be wired to think that anything that is “other” is automatically superior.

Unfortunately much that is marketed today as “Native American spirituality” has very little to do with any actual religion as actually practiced by Native American tribes. It is instead a mishmash of rituals from a variety of tribes taken out of their cultural context and put together, often with interpretations that their original users never gave them. There never was a pan-North American “Native American spirituality” any more than there was a Neolithic pan-European matriarchal Goddess-worshipping one.

Now I am not one to say that innovation is always wrong or that there cannot be valid modern interpretations of ancient practices, but I do believe folks should be honest about when they are innovating or re-interpreting rather than trying to pass it off as “ancient” and “authentic” simply to make it more appealing.
 
Genesis315 said:
What people are trying to get from these “vision quests” can be found in such more profund depth and power in Catholic spirituality–the spirituality of the religion that actually leads to intimate communion with God. To neglect that and instead adopt the practice of a religion that does not lead to God, but has become a recent fad primarily amongst those who have rejected the yolk of Christ, is just very depressing.

It’s as if one’s Father handed down a family heirloom of the highest quality which had been in the family for centuries, and then the child-heir throws it out and goes and buys a new fabricated knock-off instead because it seems like the popular thing to do.

It’s heartbreaking to see my brethren in Christ do that 😦
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Your truth isn’t the only truth. If we all understood each other’s beliefs, the world would be alot more peaceful. Christianity is all ‘one size fits all’ religion. It seems like a size 1 to me. I need a size 11.
 
Well, I am glad to see some posts are returning to the subject of this thread, Vission Quests.

The originator of the subject did not indicate if parent(s) and daughters are Native American. This makes a big difference.

I am glad to see many posts recognize that Indigenous tradition, 'though misused by New Age, is not new age.

My suggestion is not to get involved with a vission quest unless this is part of your family tradition. In that case, you know who the Elders are in your family that will prepare the children for this journey. You will also know that those involved in traditional Questing DO NOT sit around naked. Please - that is so Hollywood.

I have yet to see a Church run (CCD program) Vision Quest that is legitament. It might be possible, but I seriously doubt it. There is a myriad of reasons I doubt a parish church or an on-line offer for group questing has any authority at all.

The primary factor is that we prepare our children from very young as to what a Vissiona quest is. Even this term in the English language is very misleading. That is not how I was taught about this - not a term that would translate Vission quest anyway.

The parents of those daughters would, if this is their custom, seek out Older Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents or other such Elders from their relations. Vission Quest is not remotly close to a group venture - or a camp out.

Vission quest is every bit a part of the Christian faith - but only in the correct cultural context. I think it is good for a young person, say 12-18 years old to seek what direction God has for him or her. Fasting and seeking a desert experience or place for this is proper, but only if this is the way the parents have been raised and know what is going on.

As for daughters? It is OK for a girl or lady to go on Vission Quest, but it is not nessesary. Men are incomplete, they cannot bear life in them - they need this quest to be a person. All young people need to know that what ever is their custom or culture, they will be more a person if they give themselves away for others.

Teach the children the value of giving themselves as Religious and as Priests. Pray that at least one of your children will serve the Church in this way. That is a way to prepare your children from infancy onward. Set this example by showing them the joy you have in giveing to others.

This is the bnulk and basis of what Native People teach as they prepare their children for a vission quest. It is nto about sitting naked. It is not something to go into without years of preparation and anticipation. And, very important, if it is not your custom - chances are, you should not play around with what does not belong to you.
 
I should have said, my daughters are ages 48 and 56. Yes, I know, they are no longer children, but as parents we’d like to pass on “food for thought” in regard to the vision quest they plan to attend. Both were baptized in the Catholic church in infancy and attended Catholic school through 8 grades. One still attends church, the other still searching. I was hoping we would get the true Catholic perspective on why vision quests are inappropriate for Catholics, so we could pass on that information to them. I don’t think they have continued with their Catholic education after school years. We gave them the updated Catechism of the Catholic Church. Can you reference that in regard to Vision Quests or give me sound reasons to pass on to these adult children. We are not American Indian but they both love the culture and both have attended a vision quest before.
Thanks. Cal
 
Cal_Meier said:
I should have said, my daughters are ages 48 and 56. Yes, I know, they are no longer children, but as parents we’d like to pass on “food for thought” in regard to the vision quest they plan to attend. Both were baptized in the Catholic church in infancy and attended Catholic school through 8 grades. One still attends church, the other still searching. I was hoping we would get the true Catholic perspective on why vision quests are inappropriate for Catholics, so we could pass on that information to them. I don’t think they have continued with their Catholic education after school years. We gave them the updated Catechism of the Catholic Church. Can you reference that in regard to Vision Quests or give me sound reasons to pass on to these adult children. We are not American Indian but they both love the culture and both have attended a vision quest before.
Thanks. Cal
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I think what your daughters are doing is potentially dangerous; they are dabbling in a form of ‘spiritualism.’ The problem exists in the fact that the “spirit guide” they will consult has the very real potential of being a demon. Your daughters’ intent means nothing to Satan; he will use every opportunity we give to him to influence us. By “opening” themselves up on this quest, they open a way in.

Whether or not a person is an American Indian who goes through this procedure is irrelevant. What is relevant is their baptism into the faith. As St. Pauls says (1Cor.12:13), "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit."

Fr. Mitch Pacwa has a book that may help. I have not read it personally but I’ve heard him discuss on CA and on EWTN. It’s called Catholics and the New Age. He may not address Spirit Quests specifically but his information would apply.

I don’t see any problem with studying other cultures and their related beliefs. The problem starts when one submits oneself, body and soul, to the ‘experimentation’ of these other beliefs, foolishly believing that it will somehow bring you closer to your own. Jesus tells us that He is the way, the truth and the life. He didn’t say there were many ‘ways’ to God. Nor did he tell us to try out other means of spirituality to try and reach him; he taught us to follow him.

I will pray for you and your daughters. I know how hard it is to watch someone we love so much go astray and put themselves in danger (my own son). All you can do as a good parent is to point out what is right and true…pray for them and love them. It’s up to them to make their choices (speaking in terms of their ages).

In Christ,
Lisa
 
I will agree with Genesis that many people are drawn by the lure of the exotic without realizing or thinking to look within their own traditions for something that already exists. For some reason we seem to almost be wired to think that anything that is “other” is automatically superior
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What is a retreat? 😉 LOL Such a silly debate.
 
Lischou said:
I think what your daughters are doing is potentially dangerous; they are dabbling in a form of ‘spiritualism.’ The problem exists in the fact that the “spirit guide” they will consult has the very real potential of being a demon. Your daughters’ intent means nothing to Satan; he will use every opportunity we give to him to influence us. By “opening” themselves up on this quest, they open a way in.

Whether or not a person is an American Indian who goes through this procedure is irrelevant. What is relevant is their baptism into the faith. As St. Pauls says (1Cor.12:13), "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit."

Fr. Mitch Pacwa has a book that may help. I have not read it personally but I’ve heard him discuss on CA and on EWTN. It’s called Catholics and the New Age. He may not address Spirit Quests specifically but his information would apply.

I don’t see any problem with studying other cultures and their related beliefs. The problem starts when one submits oneself, body and soul, to the ‘experimentation’ of these other beliefs, foolishly believing that it will somehow bring you closer to your own. Jesus tells us that He is the way, the truth and the life. He didn’t say there were many ‘ways’ to God. Nor did he tell us to try out other means of spirituality to try and reach him; he taught us to follow him.

I will pray for you and your daughters. I know how hard it is to watch someone we love so much go astray and put themselves in danger (my own son). All you can do as a good parent is to point out what is right and true…pray for them and love them. It’s up to them to make their choices (speaking in terms of their ages).

In Christ,
Lisa
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Hi been away and this thread has grown,:eek: Im going to agree with Lisa here (well said) and toss back in my 2 cents I started with

*Think of it this way you are asking a spirit guide to enter your being, the only thing entering your being should be the Holy Spirit. They are substituting a poor filler for the real thing.

Christians need to be filled with Jesus not whatever*

A christian is one who has decided to follow Christ and His ways. which are NO ONE elses ways. His Way is the ONE path to the Father, there simply is no other. We are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and NONE other. SPECIFICALLY the Holy Spirit. There is no need for guides or searching like said earlier, Jesus is not lost.

He said Ask and you shall recieve. Not ask around, get a guide, go on a search. Jesus said Ask ME, no one else, period. And He will answer. Hes actually waiting outside the door, we just have to open it. And we dont need a guide to do that.

Cal Meier, tell your daughters they are complicating the whole thing. Christ is direct, The Way is through ME, I AM, No one comes to the Father, save by Me. I see absolutely no grey area there. They dont need guides, they have been invited by Christ Himself to seek Him, to try the Living Water. He is who their hearts desire, no one else.

He is who all our hearts desire, we just cant get it through our thick skulls its, yea, its that easy. (to reference a earlier post) Christ said MY Yoke, is easy. 🙂
 
I do not think the program the two ladies are going to is a real vission quest. I do not know the persons involved, so this is only my guess from the information thus provided.

Vision quests, within the proper cultural context, has been Inculturated in accord with the Magisterium. Outsiders to the cultural context tend to be neo-New Age. Even with the best of hearts, the majority of non-Natives seeking a vision Quest is making a mockery of the Church and of the various Indigenous Nations of these lands.

Please permit me to dispell a few gross misunderstandings about Vission quest. first of all, it is not called a Vission Quest. that is a term that is or was used to try and explain it.

There are more than 550 First Nations (Tribes). What I say here does not apply to all situations. I am making a very loose generalization. We DO NOT sit around naked.

The traditions I am familiar with are not conducted as a group project. These are very individual. The parents and Elders (Grandparents or aunts and Uncles) prepare the child from a very early age. These Elders know when to send the boy (sometimes a girl) on his journey. This is often times around age 14. This might be a bit earlier or later. Mature Native Adults who have not had a quest because of Indian Boarding Schools, or because of the American Indian Termination and Relocation orders of 1948-1971, or because we did not have Religious Freedom in this country untill August 11, 1978 – can be prepared, but this follows a different situation.

If the parents and/or other Elders preparing the child for his quest are Christian, then rest assured this will be done in a Christian faith manner.

I have been reading about these so-called “spiritual guides” in some of the postings. I think that comes from too many movies.

The preparation of a Vission Quest and the Preparation for the Sacrametn of Confirmation are two separate preparations, but they can also be done at the same time. I have found that young Native people prepared for the Sacrament and for the quest prove to be better informed Catholics than the average young person going through some of the most uncommitted CCD programes I have seen in many parishes. (My Godson was told there is no Trinity at one parish. Fortunaltely he was also preparing for his quest, and so he found it easy to believe there is a Great Mystery called the Holy Trinity. He was able to get confirmed as a true believer while at the same time respectfully ignoring his ignorant treachers.)

Those Native youth who are properly prepared tend to have a better theological thinking, ussualy far surpassing what I have experienced from many middle age and older adults.

Although I think non-Native Catholics should stay away from the Quest traditions, I also think it is very wrong to continue to deny Native Catholics their sacred heritage. John Paul II said to Aborigianl members of the Church, “Your culture which shows the lasting genius and dignity of your race, must not be allowed to disappear.”

If any are interested, I can provide a link that pulls up several documents by the Pope and the Magisterium regarding the rights and freedoms of Indigenous People and our cultures within the Catholic church. I am very obedient to the Pope. That these things are not well known does not mean the Pope and Magisterium is wrong.
 
Br_Joshua_Seidl said:
I do not think the program the two ladies are going to is a real vission quest. I do not know the persons involved, so this is only my guess from the information thus provided.

Vision quests, within the proper cultural context, has been Inculturated in accord with the Magisterium. Outsiders to the cultural context tend to be neo-New Age. Even with the best of hearts, the majority of non-Natives seeking a vision Quest is making a mockery of the Church and of the various Indigenous Nations of these lands.
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Br. Seidl,

I have viewed you web pages and understand that you are involved with the American Indian cultures. I have no problem with this (there were a couple of website links I found questionable but as I’m not an ‘expert’ in this area, I’ll leave well enough alone).

However, as you say above, you don’t know what it is that these ladies are going to be involved in…and…we have learned from their father that they are not American Indians. So, I would think there are 2 very important criteria here missing that would prevent you from giving this activity your blessing (based on suggestions in both of your posts).

In Christ,
Lisa
 
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