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thechrismyster
Guest
they’re paying for a vision quest?? tell them for only $100 they can come to beautiful Pennsylvania and sit in my lush grassy backyard for a week or two. no problem at all. i won’t disturb them.
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LilyM
Guest
tige, I don’t know about people searching within themselves to find God. Seems to me that the ‘god’ people find in such situations tends to look an awful lot like themselves.
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
I am NOT giving my blessing to those two ladies going on a Quest. Instead, I am sending out a warning they are getting into something they are not prepared for. The second agenda in my reponce, however, is an appeal not to forbid us natives from doing this. At least to hear from Native sources first, and its a rather long process on the deeper issues.
By the way - it is nto so much that I am involved in American Indian cultures – I am Native American. What I am invovled in is assisting various Church leaders who are trying to do something for Native concerns ministry.
Thank you for looking at my web site. I am very encouraged at the interest many members of CA forum have shown to the web site. I have two sites up and running, The more popular one is www.hawkdancer.com The ministry page of that site has a handful or so links going direct to Vatican sources and Papal speeches regarding indigenous cultures.
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Jerusha
Guest
Thank you for your support. Some of the things I have seen on this thread have been 
. Your web-site is awesome.
. Your web-site is awesome.
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
Thank you, thank you.
I enjoyed that responce. For $50 bucks thay can visit our little park-like moanstery. If they are in a hurry, $3 will light a candle. (Actually no one pays us $50.00 to visit, but I figured if they want to pay for serenity, what the hey?)
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
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Migwetch - thanksThank you for your support. Some of the things I have seen on this thread have been
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
I like the swim suit picture. Yup, the “god” does seem like the image and likeness of the person at times. If I wrote an autobigraphy - I’d be up for canonization. A biography on me, on the otherhand, would probably not at all suggest canonization.
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Lischou
Guest
I’m glad to hear that because that wasn’t clear to me when I read your responses. There was no intent to offend in my posts, my apologies.
In Christ,
Lisa
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
Br Joshua Seidl
as a note I was the one at the start that brought up the nakedness, as it was on the link provided, that one could do so if they wished.
I said I didnt think Jesus really wanted us to do that. You have mentioned it several times and I feel as though Im a intisgator in it. But like I said it was on the site provided. obvioulsy not yours that way everyone is clear
They should check out your site if its Catholic based, or just as you said forget it altogether because they dont know what its all about. Things like that are generally in the CONTEXT of the op **NOT your posts **but like the oriignal link, which is a “feel good” thing to do thats “safe” and seems like one is communioning with God when they simply are not.
They need to seek as I put earlier on the True article.
as a note I was the one at the start that brought up the nakedness, as it was on the link provided, that one could do so if they wished.
I said I didnt think Jesus really wanted us to do that. You have mentioned it several times and I feel as though Im a intisgator in it. But like I said it was on the site provided. obvioulsy not yours that way everyone is clear They should check out your site if its Catholic based, or just as you said forget it altogether because they dont know what its all about. Things like that are generally in the CONTEXT of the op **NOT your posts **but like the oriignal link, which is a “feel good” thing to do thats “safe” and seems like one is communioning with God when they simply are not.
They need to seek as I put earlier on the True article.
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
Thanks for asking – I saw no offence at all. You sound very kind. You pointed out wha tit might sound like and so I appreciated to opportunity to clarify.
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
Most of us are accustomed to praking on the right side of the road. It has become a natural thing to do, and in most situation it is the law.
Where it is permissible to park on the left, we might have an unfamiliarity with the proceedure, or just a bit of an odd feeling by parking on the left. However, for some one who has long lived on the left side of a one way street, this is very normal and confortable to do.
In a similar vein, I think a number of folks have a certain distrust, or spiritualy uncomfortable feeling with Native Culture. There are how ever many generations of various non-indigenous groups (ethnics) coming here for 515 years bent on finding justifiable reasons to supress Indigenous ways. Now that that era is coming to a close and the Church and many of the new Countries are granting equitable status to Native and Native rights of culture – the qualms come out as if Scripture or Rome has forbidden our ways.
It is the local powers that said we were evil - not Rome. To that extent, earlier Popes threatened excomunication to any Bishop, Missionary and to Catholic Laity who would take these lands, enslvae us, force convert, or other wise deny us our rights. In this day, the Pope has a special Cardinal in the Vatican of Indigenous Birth (out of Indian I think) to protect the integity of Aboriginal Spiritual and Cultural rights and of Inculturation. John Paul II originated the office for Indigenous rights.
This attitude that Native culture must go as a prerequisit to accepting the Faith became ingrained so that a number of faithful Catholics living here would think speaking indigenous language, or any of our ways were evil. Many school children were beaten, starve, tortured and killed in boarding schools becasue of something simple as giving a greeting in their indigenous language. That, however, has never been a teaching of the Catholic Church.
Dream Catchers and Vission Quests are misunderstood by those outside the culture. Many untrue things have been said of our traditions. These untruths are based not on our culture, but rather on some historical logic of the various ethnics arriving here.
I think it is best that those not knowing what these things are to leave them alone. They are not your things. Mocking thier purpose is very unkind and cruel. (In other words - great caution is expresseed here about entering Indigenous rituals by non-Natives unless a very long period of learning preceeds the event).
It is possible that these things can be explained and shared, but that will take a long time of learning. If it took 500 years to condemn us, then such new light or Dawning will not come about in a single day seminar. It will take years and even generations.
What can be done today is to accept that parking on the left might feel odd, but in the given circumstance it may be the best thing to do, the only thing to do and definitly the legal thing to do. And, there are folks who legitimatly feel comfortable parking on the left in the right environment.
Do not think that the street of neighborhood of one way streets must change. Realize that you and I must cooperate with the laws and custom of such a neighborhood.
Where it is permissible to park on the left, we might have an unfamiliarity with the proceedure, or just a bit of an odd feeling by parking on the left. However, for some one who has long lived on the left side of a one way street, this is very normal and confortable to do.
In a similar vein, I think a number of folks have a certain distrust, or spiritualy uncomfortable feeling with Native Culture. There are how ever many generations of various non-indigenous groups (ethnics) coming here for 515 years bent on finding justifiable reasons to supress Indigenous ways. Now that that era is coming to a close and the Church and many of the new Countries are granting equitable status to Native and Native rights of culture – the qualms come out as if Scripture or Rome has forbidden our ways.
It is the local powers that said we were evil - not Rome. To that extent, earlier Popes threatened excomunication to any Bishop, Missionary and to Catholic Laity who would take these lands, enslvae us, force convert, or other wise deny us our rights. In this day, the Pope has a special Cardinal in the Vatican of Indigenous Birth (out of Indian I think) to protect the integity of Aboriginal Spiritual and Cultural rights and of Inculturation. John Paul II originated the office for Indigenous rights.
This attitude that Native culture must go as a prerequisit to accepting the Faith became ingrained so that a number of faithful Catholics living here would think speaking indigenous language, or any of our ways were evil. Many school children were beaten, starve, tortured and killed in boarding schools becasue of something simple as giving a greeting in their indigenous language. That, however, has never been a teaching of the Catholic Church.
Dream Catchers and Vission Quests are misunderstood by those outside the culture. Many untrue things have been said of our traditions. These untruths are based not on our culture, but rather on some historical logic of the various ethnics arriving here.
I think it is best that those not knowing what these things are to leave them alone. They are not your things. Mocking thier purpose is very unkind and cruel. (In other words - great caution is expresseed here about entering Indigenous rituals by non-Natives unless a very long period of learning preceeds the event).
It is possible that these things can be explained and shared, but that will take a long time of learning. If it took 500 years to condemn us, then such new light or Dawning will not come about in a single day seminar. It will take years and even generations.
What can be done today is to accept that parking on the left might feel odd, but in the given circumstance it may be the best thing to do, the only thing to do and definitly the legal thing to do. And, there are folks who legitimatly feel comfortable parking on the left in the right environment.
Do not think that the street of neighborhood of one way streets must change. Realize that you and I must cooperate with the laws and custom of such a neighborhood.
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Jerusha
Guest
Your reflections on the subject reminded me of a passage from one of my favorite books, Life of BlackHawk:
“For my part, I am of the opinion, that so far as we have REASON, we have a right to use it, in determining what is right or wrong; and should pursue that path which we believe to be right-- believing that, “whatever is, is right.” If the Great and Good Spirit wished us to believe and do as the whites, he could easily change our opinions, so that we would see, and think, and act as they do. We are NOTHING compared to His power, and we feel and know it. We have men among us, like the whites, who pretend to know the right path, but will not consent to show it without PAY! I have no faith in their paths-- but believe that every man must make his own path!!”
The individual does what is natural for him/herself, given the culture that the person was raised in.
Although LDS is the epitome of racist religion in the USA, that spirit is present among many people in this country. LDS is only a symptom, arising, as it did, out of New England in the 1820’s. American Catholicism is said to be “different” from worldwide Catholicism, and I agree with you that it is certainly not representative of worldwide Catholicism. It has been permeated with a primarily Protestant disrespect for Native culture.
Many of these wannabees, who sell Native spirituality to other wannabees, may be suffering from generational guilt, trying to become “Indian” because of shame at their own culture. (Insight from a recent novel by Louise Erdrich) Interesting that the original question originated in Utah.
Beating Native culture out of people never made them good Catholics, only dysfunctional people, driven by shame, with that shame often further fueled by alcoholism…
“For my part, I am of the opinion, that so far as we have REASON, we have a right to use it, in determining what is right or wrong; and should pursue that path which we believe to be right-- believing that, “whatever is, is right.” If the Great and Good Spirit wished us to believe and do as the whites, he could easily change our opinions, so that we would see, and think, and act as they do. We are NOTHING compared to His power, and we feel and know it. We have men among us, like the whites, who pretend to know the right path, but will not consent to show it without PAY! I have no faith in their paths-- but believe that every man must make his own path!!”
The individual does what is natural for him/herself, given the culture that the person was raised in.
Although LDS is the epitome of racist religion in the USA, that spirit is present among many people in this country. LDS is only a symptom, arising, as it did, out of New England in the 1820’s. American Catholicism is said to be “different” from worldwide Catholicism, and I agree with you that it is certainly not representative of worldwide Catholicism. It has been permeated with a primarily Protestant disrespect for Native culture.
Many of these wannabees, who sell Native spirituality to other wannabees, may be suffering from generational guilt, trying to become “Indian” because of shame at their own culture. (Insight from a recent novel by Louise Erdrich) Interesting that the original question originated in Utah.
Beating Native culture out of people never made them good Catholics, only dysfunctional people, driven by shame, with that shame often further fueled by alcoholism…
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Br_Joshua_Seidl
Guest
Gitchi Migwetch - Thanks.
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blacktiger057
Guest
They are definately old enough to make their own descisions. If they’ve done it before, did they seem happier and more religious when they came back? sarcastic voiceOr did they slit someone’s throat, thus proving that vision quests are evil?
Let them go. I’m sure it will be very fufilling in many ways.
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blacktiger057
Guest
Wrong. We ask God to be present within us inChurch, so does that leave us open for Satan? Intent is almost the ONLY thing that matters. If you want God’s protection, are you saying that Satan will break through that? How very little faith you have…
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blacktiger057
Guest
No, that’s ego. Search deeper. The Bible says that God is in each and every one of us. Or are you going to contradict the Bible, which I thought you trusted entirely?
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Auriel
Guest
Thank goodness you spoke up. I did not feel like reading every single post but I felt the need to clarify as well. And I am not sure about you but I want to SCREAM when someone mentions going to a Shaman. It is a new age term (Actually came from Siberia), not a Native term. The New Age movement has influenced people’s thoughts and beliefs about Native Americans. I am not a full blood but darn it, I hate stereotyping.
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Auriel
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Whoooa, thanks for posting the link as well. I had no idea that genocide at such a grand level occurred in Canada. Very sobering.
I am researching the Slaughter of over 7 thousand Tejanos by the Texas Rangers at the moment, and taking down stories from the few who are still living. It is amazing to me how cruel humankind can be towards each other. Thanks again, I will be forwarding this link to others.
I am researching the Slaughter of over 7 thousand Tejanos by the Texas Rangers at the moment, and taking down stories from the few who are still living. It is amazing to me how cruel humankind can be towards each other. Thanks again, I will be forwarding this link to others.
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LilyM
Guest
God is in each and every one of us equally??? No matter what? Where do you get that idea from? It’s totally unbiblical.
My Bible tells me that He made us in His image and loves and cares for us, but it also tells us that some of us are very far from Him indeed. And that He is very much outside of and beyond us as well.
What kind of God is so much less than the sum of His creatures that He is infact whole and entire in each and every one of them? Certainly an incredibly weak God, weaker than His weakest creature. Not one worth the bother of worshipping frankly.
Hence the need to perform actions (which the Bible also requires) like receiving His body and blood to renew that tenuous connection we have to Him. And hence His prescription in carven rock of certain commandments. If he was truly in each and every last one of us we’d not need these commandments - certainly we’d never disobey them in the first place!
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Greg27
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God is omnipresent in all of creation, not in the sense all creatures are God’s essence (pantheism) but in that God’s essence is infinite and is not contained by any thing, place, or even by the universe, or by other universes. A classical saying is that God is everywhere and no-where at once, a nice paradox which I think sums up the mystery of how God is transcendent and not in any creature or finite form, but at the same time immanent intimately to all creatures as their creator, sustainer and guiding them to their created end. St Thomas nicely balances the cataphatic approach to God and the apophatic approach in this way, saying how God is transcendent and also immanent. To focus too much on God’s transcendence seems to make him rather remote and unconcerned with creation, while focusing too much on his immanence can lead to a Spinoza or Neo-Platonic kind of pantheism. To say God is not omnipresent is in fact to deny a key divine attribute, affirmed by many Church Fathers and by scripture itself. However, God’s essence is transcendent (we can’t know what it is in this life) and creatures are not God, they are creations of God, which I think is what you are trying to get across to this poster.
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