Visions of Mary Question

[Edward_Henry]

Even ST. Paul was tested when he preached, and he didn’t accuse those who tested him of intellectual pride. He actually praised them for searching the scriptures to see if what he was preaching was true or not.

So it is Saint Paul whom you are trying to imitate?

Don’t you see the error of pride at hand?

Denying the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to countless saints and Popes that proved themselves with their lives of martyrdom and suffering because we believe that the Holy Spirit will only guide us, self-proclaimed prophets of the Twenty-first Century?

Saint Paul, whom you quote, also suffered from intellectual pride. He had been trained as a Pharisee and knew all the Jewish Scriptures better than any of the Apostles. He had undoubtedly read prophesies which Jesus fullfilled and knew that the Messiah would suffer. Yet his “learned” pride blinded him. If he is the one whom you are trying to imitate, be careful. His *self-righteous learned theology *caused for him to miss out on the great mysteries of Heaven that have already been revealed to the “little ones.” Yet, , I am sure that those persecuted little ones recognized and appreciated the role of Our Lady before she was taken up to Heaven, while he missed out,… until Our Lord Himself knocked him of his horse and knocked some faith into him.

The role of Our Lady is a wonderful divine mystery. I pray you discover it soon.

***“I give praise to you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.” ***(Matthew 11: 25-26)

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

 

[notsmart]

I think all people should be encouraged to ask and test things.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**Pleading the blood of Christ over something is totally different than puting your faith in Mary and Saints. **

**Of course it’s different.

EVERYTHING pop-evangelicals do is different from Biblical Christianity.**

 

[notsmart]

I am offended by the comments made about Saint Paul here. After all, the catholic church has dedicated this year to Saint Paul.
It was painful reading one post here. I hope this is not the consensus of catholic thinking on the matter.
All humans have flaws. I do not appreciate Paul being denigrated here like this, in the guise of “helping” Mary mother of God’s “cause”!

I would think Mary would not like this either, knowing the way she was so humble in the bible.

 

[Edward_Henry]

I am offended by the comments made about Saint Paul here. After all, the catholic church has dedicated this year to Saint Paul.

But not offended about the comments about Mary? It is funny how Christians will defend Saint Paul, but allow all kinds of second quenstioning when it comes to Jesus’ Mother. They are “touchy” about any lack of appreciation for the Apostle, but do not consider Catholics’ feelings when attacking their gratitude and reverence for their Sorrowful Mother.

All humans have flaws. I do not appreciate Paul being denigrated here like this, in the guise of “helping” Mary mother of God’s “cause”!

Don’t worry, we Catholics feel tremendous admiration for Saint Paul after his conversion. He was the great apostle to the Gentiles. But if you quote him in order to justify you skeptical attack against Mary and the saints, he would be the first one to warn you about the danger of “intellectual pride” of which he himself was victim before his conversion.

Saint Paul pray for us!

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Denying the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to countless saints and Popes that proved themselves with their lives of martyrdom and suffering because we believe that the Holy Spirit will only guide us, self-proclaimed prophets of the Twenty-first Century?

Not to be rude, but there were several Popes who didn’t act accordingly with the Catholic faith. There were atheist Popes, power hungry Popes, and Popes who were not chaste. Where was the Holy Spirit when these men were guiding the church? Were these men allowed to have authority for a reason? Why were the herecies that sparked the Protestant reformation allowed to happen in the Church?

But still, the question must be asked: how can you be sure that these visions of Mary are legitimate and not simply tricks being played on God’s faithful people?

I don’t want to be misled, after all. So I am cautious about accepting someone’s vision or private revelation.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

ATHEIST Popes?
I will grant you that some Popes did not live chaste lives.
I will grant you that some were out for more ‘temporal’ power.

But ATHEIST Popes?

In the plural, as though to state that there were at least 2 men who actively believing in God? And were witnessed to do such? With primary source proof for the allegation?

You have some interesting points and a lot of passion in your posts but one of the pitfalls of passion is that a person can (with the best intentions) become so passionate that he or she can wind up making errors simply because his/her passion is such a blinding ‘light’ that he/she can’t accept anything–even the truth–if it ‘seems’ not to jibe with the passion. Further, he or she is often willing to accept untruth simply because the untruth serves to ‘strengthen’ the passion.

You want to be very careful in your statements.
And important as ‘trying to be sure things are of God’ is as a concept, being so focused on** that** as being **the **most important thing in the world can take one’s focus away from God. It really can. Some of the most zealous and passionate people who were so SURE that they were totally focused on God’s will, making sure that what people were told was exactly what God said and not ‘man-made traditions’ . . .were Protestants. They were so sure. . .and they were ultimately so wrong, despite their zeal.

Approved apparitions we can be sure of, though we are not bound to accept them personally.

We need to test, certainly, but once the test has been made (approved apparitions) and the results are approved, we need not feel we have to ‘second-guess’.

And let’s be very careful not to denigrate others at the expense of building up another. I have the highest respect for Mary, Mother of God, as God’s most perfect creature. But I don’t play ‘competition’ with her and the other saints as to which one was the ‘smartest’, or the most powerful, or did the most for the church, etc. Those things are not ‘important’. Whatever Mary and the saints do, all that ultimately comesfrom God, as they would be the first to tell us.

I am so thankful as a Catholic to have a Magesterium so that I do not have to rely on ‘individuals’ who have a personal favorite saint or a particular point of view that inclines them to think that one aspect or gift is ‘more important’ than any others when it comes to following God, and which can investigate claims etc. and pronounce, through the Holy Spirit, authoritatively. I accept their authority gladly.

 

[Edward_Henry]

I don’t want to be misled, after all. So I am cautious about accepting someone’s vision or private revelation.

Wow, that is what Saint Thomas would have said regarding Jesus’ ‘private’ appearance to the rest of the Apostles during his absence. He was not about to accept even the testimony of his fellow disciples.

You obviously subscribe to the same incredulous skeptical mentality. What do you think Our Lord’s message to you would be? What was His message to Saint Thomas? (John 20: 29)

One thing is to be prudent,… another, is to use that *“prudency” *to justify stubborn intransigency.

"Concerning Private revelations, we are called to be cautious, naturally, but it is one thing to be ‘cautious’ and another one to be ‘closed.’ Even the Apostles scoffed the women when they reported the vision of the Risen Lord. What would have happened if the “first members of the Church” had not felt the call to investigate? Many times, unfortunately, the caution to which we are naturally called to, when there is a question of supernatural phenomena, is often replaced with an attitude which is the fruit of secular skepticism and incredulity more than Christian prudence

." Taken from (Click here):
WHY DO WE NEED PRIVATE APPARITIONS BEYOND PUBLIC REVELATION?

Chris, maybe you are missing out on a tremendous mystery. I pray you discover it soon.

Peace

To Jesus through Mary
Edward Henry

 

[notsmart]

Not to be rude, but there were several Popes who didn’t act accordingly with the Catholic faith.

 

[Edward_Henry]

Hi Notsmart,

I personally can’t swallow the OLG tripe

.
Could you be more specific? What are your objections?
Edward Henry

 

[notsmart]

Hi Notsmart,
.
Could you be more specific? What are your objections?
Edward Henry

I had a whole thread on it. The entire thing does not add up logically.

 

[Nickkname]

Many faithful Catholics have reported seeing and conversing with Mary, the mother of Jesus.

How many of these people tested the spirits who claimed to be Mary to see for sure that they really were Mary? Scripture tells us to test the spirits to see if they are from God or not.

(I originally submitted this to the ask an apologist area, but wanted to discuss it with the rest of you as well.)

The Church is the Body of Christ. Jesus was God and Man; He was not a human person but a Divine Person, in Whom was united His human and divine natures. Hence the Church is Divine and human, Invisible and visible; it is not a human institutation but a Divine Institution, the center of which is Jesus Christ Himself (the Most Blessed Sacrament) - in Whom is united us human beings and the Lord. Just as when Jesus was baptized He was guided by the Holy Spirit, so too the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

God is the Truth Itself. He cannot decieve nor be deceived. So if the Church is a Divine Institution, and it is guided by the Holy Spirit, than how can it deceive or be deceived? Some Catholics may be deceived or deceive others, but the Church is not and cannot. So if the visions are true or false, the Church will find out; if true, she will accept them from God; if false, she will condemn them.

But no one is required to accept any private revelation: Only Public Revelation is mandatory. Private revelations do not falll in the desposit of faith; they merely point to Public Revelation and help guide Christians along the way of faith, like pilgrim lanterns. So if you don’t like a true revelation, than don’t associate with it; if you do like one, you’re free to tell others about it and spread devotion to the angel or saint through whom the Lord spoke.

As for how the Church judges whether a revelation is true or not, she looks to the fruits of the visionary, the fruits of those who are devoted to it, the message of the revelation, and any supernatural realities (signs, miracles, etc.) accompanied with it. For example, Our Lady of Fatima: The three visionaries obeyed the Church; they lived very prayerful lives and made many sacrifices for poor sinners, for the Pope, for Jesus, and for Mary; they did not seek wealth or fame; and they did not corrupt the messages of Our Lady. The fruits of those who were devoted to Our Lady included conversions, being more obedient to the Church, increased prayer and penance, devotion to Jesus and Mary, and love for the Holy Father. The message of Our Lady was simple: prayer and penance; it was the same message of the gospel. The miracles of Fatima included cures, the dancing of the sun, and the greatest miracle of all: conversions!

 

[Edward_Henry]

The Church is the Body of Christ. Jesus was God and Man; He was not a human person but a Divine Person, in Whom was united His human and divine natures. Hence the Church is Divine and human, Invisible and visible; it is not a human institutation but a Divine Institution, the center of which is Jesus Christ Himself (the Most Blessed Sacrament) - in Whom is united us human beings and the Lord. Just as when Jesus was baptized He was guided by the Holy Spirit, so too the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

God is the Truth Itself. He cannot decieve nor be deceived. So if the Church is a Divine Institution, and it is guided by the Holy Spirit, than how can it deceive or be deceived? Some Catholics may be deceived or deceive others, but the Church is not and cannot. So if the visions are true or false, the Church will find out; if true, she will accept them from God; if false, she will condemn them.

But no one is required to accept any private revelation: Only Public Revelation is mandatory. Private revelations do not falll in the desposit of faith; they merely point to Public Revelation and help guide Christians along the way of faith, like pilgrim lanterns. So if you don’t like a true revelation, than don’t associate with it; if you do like one, you’re free to tell others about it and spread devotion to the angel or saint through whom the Lord spoke.

As for how the Church judges whether a revelation is true or not, she looks to the fruits of the visionary, the fruits of those who are devoted to it, the message of the revelation, and any supernatural realities (signs, miracles, etc.) accompanied with it. For example, Our Lady of Fatima: The three visionaries obeyed the Church; they lived very prayerful lives and made many sacrifices for poor sinners, for the Pope, for Jesus, and for Mary; they did not seek wealth or fame; and they did not corrupt the messages of Our Lady. The fruits of those who were devoted to Our Lady included conversions, being more obedient to the Church, increased prayer and penance, devotion to Jesus and Mary, and love for the Holy Father. The message of Our Lady was simple: prayer and penance; it was the same message of the gospel. The miracles of Fatima included cures, the dancing of the sun, and the greatest miracle of all: conversions!

Thank you Nickname.
I think that the issue behind the discussion has been that certain people refuse to accept the Divinely given authority of the Church. I think this is why Our Lord called Nicodemus (and us) to childlike trust in order to enter the Kingdom of God. If you begin by not accepting the Church and her authority, the rest of the spiritual struggle is very understandable.

Thanks again.

To Jesus through Mary

Edward Henry

 

[Chris_LaRock]

As I have asked before…

…how do you know these spirits claiming to be Mary really were her? If your average Catholic was confronted by a spirit claiming to be Mary, would they just assume it’s her - or would they test that spirit?

 

[Della]

As I have asked before…

…how do you know these spirits claiming to be Mary really were her? If your average Catholic was confronted by a spirit claiming to be Mary, would they just assume it’s her - or would they test that spirit?

And as we have answered again and again, such a person would go to his priest for council, and if the priest felt it necessary he would take it to his bishop. IOW, individual Catholics do not “test spirits” in the way you are suggesting, nor is the biblical directive limited to spirits being tested by the individual lay person. In all matters of faith and morals, Catholics go to their duly appointed shepherds, who have been given the duty to judge such matters. If you take the trouble to read about Church approved apparitions of Mary you will find that in all these cases that is what the seer(s) have done. It’s just that simple. What else do you want us to say that you keep asking the same question over and over again?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

And as we have answered again and again, such a person would go to his priest for council, and if the priest felt it necessary he would take it to his bishop. IOW, individual Catholics do not “test spirits” in the way you are suggesting, nor is the biblical directive limited to spirits being tested by the individual lay person. In all matters of faith and morals, Catholics go to their duly appointed shepherds, who have been given the duty to judge such matters. If you take the trouble to read about Church approved apparitions of Mary you will find that in all these cases that is what the seer(s) have done. It’s just that simple. What else do you want us to say that you keep asking the same question over and over again?

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[notsmart]

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I love those passages. They helped me a lot recently.

 

[Edward_Henry]

As I have asked before…

…how do you know these spirits claiming to be Mary really were her? If your average Catholic was confronted by a spirit claiming to be Mary, would they just assume it’s her - or would they test that spirit?

I would worry more about knowing, how a *average non-catholic *would test a spirit?

Catholics have the protection given by their obedience to a Church, authorized and founded by Christ.

In all Church approved Marian apparitions, it has been Our Lady herself, who has sent the visionaries to seek the counsel and approval by the Church.

In Guadalupe, it was Our Lady who sent the visionary **Juan Diego **directly to the bishop (Zumarraga) with the message and with her request.

In Rue Du Bac, She sent the visionary St Catherine Laboure, to seek the obedient counsel of a confessor who helped her in discerning the message.

In Lourdes, She sent Saint Bernardette, directly to the local priest with the request for a chapel and for processions.

In Fatima, she asked the 3 children,Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta for a chapel to be built and for a message to be taken directly to the Pope himself.( How much more can you ask?)

In all approved apparitions, the message of Our Lady has been meant for the Church and for the community. And Our Lady has always respected the Church’ decision on the matter. As you can see, Our Lady always respects the authority of the Church founded by Her Divine Son.

When the Catholic Church approves an apparition, we Catholics have the peace of mind and assurance that the strictest investigations on the message and on the fruits of the apparition have been taken!

This is what worries me about non-christians, who attempt to discern the possible deceptions of Satan, without proper spiritual trainining, without educated discernment techniques and without an authorized Church to support them. I am sure that the enemy can take advantage of that false sense of self-reliance.

Please do not worry about us Catholics. When Our Lord sends Our Lady to visit us from Heaven, we are not alone. We have a *Governing Body * whom He entrusted with the Keys of the Kingdom to protect us.

To Jesus, through His Mother Mary

Edward Henry

 

[Della]

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

As I already pointed out, these verses no where limit us to an on the spot “discernment” by a lay person. It is only prudent and proper to go to one’s spiritual fathers for guidance. Show us where the Bible says we shouldn’t do that.

No apparition of Mary has ever denied that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. In fact, just the opposite–Mary is the very embodiment of that teaching since Jesus was born of her flesh. So, show us how such approved apparitions in any way violate the verses cited.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Please do not worry about us Catholics. When Our Lord sends Our Lady to visit us from Heaven, we are not alone. We have a *Governing Body * whom He entrusted with the Keys of the Kingdom to protect us.

Not to be rude, but that’s exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses say about their watchtower society.