Visit of His Beatitude Sviatoslav, Patriarch of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, to the Eparchy of New Westminster, BC

[PazzoGrande]

That’s interesting, no iconostasis?

Or is it because this is a Latin parish and didn’t have them built in?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

What I want a video of is His Beatitude entering the (where the) royal doors (should be) and he was singing something in Ukrainian.

Budi Imja Hospodne (Blessed be the Name of the Lord), I’m guessing, followed by the blessing of the four corners.

Is this it?

Procession Video - 13 Nov 2011

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s interesting, no iconostasis?

Or is it because this is a Latin parish and didn’t have them built in?

It is a Ukrainian parish. As you can see in the other photos, RC parishes do not have tabernacles like that, nor do they put it on top of the altar table.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Budi Imja Hospodne (Blessed be the Name of the Lord), I’m guessing, followed by the blessing of the four corners.

Is this it?

Procession Video - 13 Nov 2011

No. He was doing a solo and he was incensing the altar.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

No. He was doing a solo and he was incensing the altar.

Fascinating! That indeed would be a video to treasure. Let us know if you stumble upon anything.

Are you sure he was chanting in Ukrainian, and not Greek per chance?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Fascinating! That indeed would be a video to treasure. Let us know if you stumble upon anything.

Are you sure he was chanting in Ukrainian, and not Greek per chance?

We never do anything in Greek. Even Slavonic would be unlikely.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

We never do anything in Greek. Even Slavonic would be unlikely.

Never say never. I have heard His Beatitude chanting in OCS (I’ll see if I can dig up a video), and there are indeed instances where use of Greek is proper in a concelebrated HDL with multiple Byzantine Churches represented.

In the typical Ruthenian HDL, the celebrant bishop chants (usually solo) one of the three “repeats” of the Trisagion.

Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.
Agios o Theos, Agios ischyros, Agios athanatos, eleison imas.

I understood the practice was the same among Ukrainians. Check out this YouTube video, just after the 55 minute mark. You will note that all the bishops (and clergy) are chanting in unison.

Notwithstanding the common use of “Axios” for ordinations and episcopal installations (which, by the way, is also chanted a few moments later in this video).

 

[ConstantineTG]

Never say never. I have heard His Beatitude chanting in OCS (I’ll see if I can dig up a video), and there are indeed instances where use of Greek is proper in a concelebrated HDL with multiple Byzantine Churches represented.

In the typical Ruthenian HDL, the celebrant bishop chants (usually solo) one of the three “repeats” of the Trisagion.

Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.
Agios o Theos, Agios ischyros, Agios athanatos, eleison imas.

I understood the practice was the same among Ukrainians. Check out this YouTube video, just after the 55 minute mark. You will note that all the bishops (and clergy) are chanting in unison.

Notwithstanding the common use of “Axios” for ordinations and episcopal installations (which, by the way, is also chanted a few moments later in this video).

Of course it would happen if it is an ecumenical Liturgy, but not in a Ukrainian-only Liturgy. I was hoping we’d have more English in the Liturgy but we didn’t despite the number of invited RC bishops and priests. Maybe that is why we put one of the RC priests to sleep, LOL.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Of course it would happen if it is an ecumenical Liturgy, but not in a Ukrainian-only Liturgy.

A curious distinct between Ruthenian and Ukrainian practice, perhaps, as the usage is not restricted to “ecumenical HDL” as it were. In fact, all HDLs are considered “ecumenical” in nature, as the unity of the celebrant with the Bishop of Rome and all other bishops is expressly emphasized.

I was hoping we’d have more English in the Liturgy but we didn’t despite the number of invited RC bishops and priests. Maybe that is why we put one of the RC priests to sleep, LOL.

Hate when that happens!

BTW - I would not have mistaken you in the video for the young man in choir dress (a seminarian, perhaps?), not because of the vestments but because he blessed himself in Latin style . You were holding the one of the Ripidia, I presume?

 

[ConstantineTG]

A curious distinct between Ruthenian and Ukrainian practice, perhaps, as the usage is not restricted to “ecumenical HDL” as it were. In fact, all HDLs are considered “ecumenical” in nature, as the unity of the celebrant with the Bishop of Rome and all other bishops is expressly emphasized.

Okay, let me just put it this way. We don’t use Greek at all

Even at the Paschal Greeting we only say the English and Ukrainian. We did the Greek once but the person who encourages us to do the Greek is no longer with our parish.

Hate when that happens!

Yeah, I know. I was pretty tired myself after the adrenaline level started to go down. I didn’t eat much the evening before and obviously I was fasting for the Liturgy. Maybe I should have asked for ekonomia if I can eat a tablespoon of sugar to give me a boost. But hey, I made it through

BTW - I would not have mistaken you in the video for the young man in choir dress (a seminarian, perhaps?), not because of the vestments but because he blessed himself in Latin style .

That is one lucky dude. Yes, he is a seminarian and his priest-friend who was among the invited guests brought him over. He asked us if he can join the procession and our subdeacon who was the emcee let him and also let him sit among the RC priests up at the altar. Although I wanted to whack him with the ripidia when I saw him kneeling for the Anaphora “Hey buddy, when in Kiev do as the Kievians do” unfortunately more than half of the congregation was kneeling anyway. IS OUTRAGE!

You were holding the one of the Ripidia, I presume?

You know for me the greatest honor was that all the bread offered on the altar were prosphora I made. And I am glad I was standing right in front of the altar during the Anaphora holding the ripidia.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Okay, let me just put it this way. We don’t use Greek at all

Understandable, at least with respect to congregational use. I can’t help but think of having a bishop presiding, as I spent many years in a Cathedral parish.

I wanted to whack him with the ripidia when I saw him kneeling for the Anaphora “Hey buddy, when in Kiev do as the Kievians do” unfortunately more than half of the congregation was kneeling anyway. IS OUTRAGE!

That by far was the funniest thing I’ve read in this forum - hands down. Nothing like the thought of being smacked upside the head by a seraph. Thanks for the laugh!

[Of course, that rule of thumb is especially true when in the sanctuary among the clergy and hierarchs - stand!.]

You know for me the greatest honor was that all the bread offered on the altar were prosphora I made.

Magnificent! A gift of Gifts! You should be proud!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Understandable, at least with respect to congregational use. I can’t help but think of having a bishop presiding, as I spent many years in a Cathedral parish.

I go to the Cathedral parish and have the bishop there about a third of the time although not every Liturgy has all the bells and whistles. Contrast that with St. Elias where every Liturgy is a Patriarchal Divine Liturgy

That by far was the funniest thing I’ve read in this forum - hands down. Nothing like the thought of being smacked upside the head by a seraph. Thanks for the laugh!

But seriously, when I caught on the corner of my eye that he was kneeling I wanted to go like, “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DONIG?!” But the congregation doesn’t really help my case. I was also watching during Communion if anyone would kneel to receive Communion. As I am holding a candle I was thinking of giving someone a nice hot wax bath

[Of course, that rule of thumb is especially true when in the sanctuary among the clergy and hierarchs - stand!.]

I think we need to do a better job in telling our RC brothers and sisters how to go about our Liturgy. They did add to the “programme” the write-up about how properly disposed RCs can approach for Communion but didn’t include how to. Many came with their arms crossed over their chest expecting a blessing, and here is a priest with a spoon trying to put the Eucharist in one’s mouth. Also I noticed some try to stick their tongue out, and I did overhear one of the priest say, “don’t stick your tongue out!”

Magnificent! A gift of Gifts! You should be proud!

I feel greatly honored by it. And the fact that all Liturgies he celebrated in our province used prosphora I made.

 

[5Loaves]

Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.
Agios o Theos, Agios ischyros, Agios athanatos, eleison imas.

I was very pleased when this was chanted at Ft Ross at the big 200th anniversary concelebration. Perhaps it was in recognition of the presence of Met. Gerasimos, Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco.

 

[Crescentinus]

This is awesome, and I’m getting ideas again! :]

 

[5Loaves]

Although I wanted to whack him with the ripidia when I saw him kneeling for the Anaphora “Hey buddy, when in Kiev do as the Kievians do” unfortunately more than half of the congregation was kneeling anyway. IS OUTRAGE!
.

Wasn’t this DL on Sept 1, a Saturday, not a Sunday when kneeling is prohibited? Or was it because it was a feastday, Liturgical New Year, you thought there shouldn’t be kneeling?

St. Elias, Brampton:

Kneeling and Prostrations:

• Kneeling and Prostrations are proper during non-festive Weekdays, especially during the Penitential seasons, e.g.: the Great Fast, Philip’s Fast, the Apostles’ Fast, etc.

The Greeks always kneel, when there are pews with kneelers (usual in US) or prostate. At OCF we prostrate, on the bare floor, since it is a weekday, Tuesdays, when we have DL there. Many kneel or prostrate at the OCA I go to if it is a day other than Sunday. Other than a Sunday I prostrate after the priest says “Changing them by Your Holy Spirit” and we reply “Amen. Amen. Amen.” On Sundays everyone in my parish does a reverence bending at the waist and touching the floor with fingers at that point.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Wasn’t this DL on Sept 1, a Saturday, not a Sunday when kneeling is prohibited? Or was it because it was a feastday, Liturgical New Year, you thought there shouldn’t be kneeling?

There shouldn’t be kneeling because it is the Divine Liturgy. We don’t kneel because it is a joyous occasion when Christ comes in our midst in the Eucharist. That is why even during Lent we do not kneel during Sundays (when Divine Liturgy is celebrated).

St. Elias, Brampton:

The Greeks always kneel, when there are pews with kneelers (usual in US) or prostate. At OCF we prostrate, on the bare floor, since it is a weekday, Tuesdays, when we have DL there. Many kneel or prostrate at the OCA I go to if it is a day other than Sunday. Other than a Sunday I prostrate after the priest says “Changing them by Your Holy Spirit” and we reply “Amen. Amen. Amen.” On Sundays everyone in my parish does a reverence bending at the waist and touching the floor with fingers at that point.

My understanding is that the DL is a festive occasion, always.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

There shouldn’t be kneeling because it is the Divine Liturgy.

More specifically in this case, perhaps, because this individual was a seminarian attending the DL in the sanctuary and among the clergy and hierarchs, he should not have knelt at any point during the DL.

We recognize that some of the older generation in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian traditions were taught to kneel at the Anaphora. This custom is still widely practiced in the Old Country, as I am told.

 

[ConstantineTG]

More specifically in this case, perhaps, because this individual was a seminarian attending the DL in the sanctuary and among the clergy and hierarchs, he should not have knelt at any point during the DL.

We recognize that some of the older generation in the Ukrainian and Ruthenian traditions were taught to kneel at the Anaphora. This custom is still widely practiced in the Old Country, as I am told.

It is still widely practiced where we are. I think it is only in the Cathedral where we have people who do not kneel during the Anaphora. And even then it is still only about half of the people, at best.

 

[5Loaves]

There shouldn’t be kneeling because it is the Divine Liturgy. We don’t kneel because it is a joyous occasion when Christ comes in our midst in the Eucharist. That is why even during Lent we do not kneel during Sundays (when Divine Liturgy is celebrated).

My understanding is that the DL is a festive occasion, always.

The canonical prohibition against kneeling/prostrations is for every Sunday/Lord’s Day, not for every Divine Liturgy, (except if Exaltation of the Precious and Life-creating Cross falls on a Sunday), and prohibited on Feasts of Christ and from the Feast of Pascha until after DL on Pentecost. That Pentecost DL is followed by what is usually called “kneeling vespers” where we do a great number of prostrations, and they are reintroduced into the service, from Pentecost and Easter. (Just to clarify vocabulary, that what the west calls kneeling the east usually refers to as standing on the knees. Most of what we do is prostrations, but there is also some kneeling/standing on knees.)

Canon XC.

We have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ’s resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, again with bended knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord’s resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection.

I have no idea what the UGCC Typicon or service books call for in your Church. Here is a site I just found from an OCA parish which describes times for kneeling or prostrating “Guidelines through the year”, and “Guidelines for Divine Liturgy” ( …“Full prostrations are, however, called for during Liturgies served on weekdays. Here are the same six times as listed above, with further explanation:…”). We prostrate three times (rather than just crossing oneself and bowing the 3 times) during the four fasting seasons when entering the church and leaving it when venerating the festal icon, and during the afterfeast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-creating Cross. Do you not prostrate in the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts when the Gifts are processed from the altar through the nave and back into the altar to be placed on the Holy Table?

 

[ConstantineTG]

The canonical prohibition against kneeling/prostrations is for every Sunday/Lord’s Day, not for every Divine Liturgy, (except if Exaltation of the Precious and Life-creating Cross falls on a Sunday), and prohibited on Feasts of Christ and from the Feast of Pascha until after DL on Pentecost. That Pentecost DL is followed by what is usually called “kneeling vespers” where we do a great number of prostrations, and they are reintroduced into the service, from Pentecost and Easter. (Just to clarify vocabulary, that what the west calls kneeling the east usually refers to as standing on the knees. Most of what we do is prostrations, but there is also some kneeling/standing on knees.)

I think that stems from the fact that the Divine Liturgy used to be celebrated only on Sundays. The joyous occassion in the Liturgy is the Anamnesis during the Anaphora, which is intentionally absent in the Presanctified Liturgy. And the reason the Presanctified is celebrated over the Divine Liturgy on the weekdays of Lent is precisely we do not have the Anaphora, therefore no Anamnesis, therefore no prohibition from kneeling.

I guess the prostrations for the Most Holy Cross is tolerable given it happens before the Anaphora, not during or after.

I have no idea what the UGCC Typicon or service books call for in your Church. Here is a site I just found from an OCA parish which describes times for kneeling or prostrating “Guidelines through the year”, and “Guidelines for Divine Liturgy” ( …“Full prostrations are, however, called for during Liturgies served on weekdays. Here are the same six times as listed above, with further explanation:…”). We prostrate three times (rather than just crossing oneself and bowing the 3 times) during the four fasting seasons when entering the church and leaving it when venerating the festal icon, and during the afterfeast of the Exaltation of the Precious and Life-creating Cross. Do you not prostrate in the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts when the Gifts are processed from the altar through the nave and back into the altar to be placed on the Holy Table?

Well, our books of not so long ago (5 years give or take) prescribes kneeling at the equivalent parts when RCs kneel. And also prescribes sitting during the Litanies, even the one after the Anaphora. So not much help there. The Anthology does not prescribe a posture, mainly because it assums standing all the time.