Visiting a radically "progressive" Protestant church

[Lead_Me_Home]

The leader of my Religious Pluralism group at school has arranged for us to visit a Re-constructionist Synagogue and a Baptist Church that “marry” homosexual couples. Christe Eleison
I have decided to go since it is a mandatory event and I want to be respectful enough to visit as I would expect a radical protestant to visit a Catholic Church. I am not sure if it would be worth debating or challenging the minister/rabbi. I have to pray for them of course. I would like to sprinkle Holy Water on these places, however I can’t do this discretely in a group.

There are Biblical passages that clearly condemn homosexuality, however they won’t listen. They have lied to themselves so that they believe those passaages are not important because Paul wrote them. I am going to be on of the few, including my one Catholic friend and one Muslim friend in my group who see homosexuality as a sin.

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

I would love any responses, I am going there tomorrow. Should I even bother to question/debate the minister or rabbi? Should I walk out after the first five minutes if I see that the conversation is hopeless? It does not seem like the most welcoming environment for practicing Catholics.

Are there any scriptures I should start a conversation with the minister or rabbi with? I feel like they already ignore any scripture that goes against what they want to do other than what God wants them to do.

 

[aspirant]

Should I even bother to question/debate the minister or rabbi?

Is this a venue/occasion where debate is appropriate?

Should I walk out after the first five minutes if I see that the conversation is hopeless?

Even if you do not think you can change someone’s mind at a given time, it can still be worthwhile to know what he’s thinking.

 

[Michelle_in_WV]

One of the most important things I have learned in life is to choose my battles wisely. That means waiting for the right moment to say or do something instead of going off half-cocked at the first apparent opportunity. (Sometimes I’m even successful at this!)

You have not given us a description of your class. I am a student at my local state university, and I took a class called “World Religions” during the Spring 2009 semester. One of our assignments was to visit the religious service of a religion to which we did not belong, and preferably with which we were not familiar, and write a report about what we saw and heard.

My assignment may have been more “clinical” than yours, but I approached it with the intention of learning about the beliefs of others, and I recommend that you try this approach. You probably will not be in a position to change anyone’s mind about his beliefs until you know what his beliefs are, and (very important) why he believes what he believes. Therefore, do not try to challenge the people you meet, but ask them questions that are relevant to the topics that are being discussed. Once you understand the other side, you will be in a better position to win converts.

By the way, why do you call yourself a “closet Catholic?”

• Michelle

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

I have to change “Closet Catholic.” I have started RCIA now. I called myself that because at the time I was and still am the only Catholic in my household. My family is Protestant (non-denom) and I did not discuss my Catholicism a whole lot. Occasionally I would say things and of course I would go to Mass on holidays. Now I go to Mass every Sunday and am hoping to be confirmed this year.

My high school class is pretty secular. The teacher was born Catholic, he was baptized and went to Mass on Easter and Christmas. He is now a re-constructionist Jew. One kid in the group is a Shiite Muslim, a girl and I are practicing Catholics, another boy is not a practicing Catholic, one girl is Baptist, and the rest of the class is made up of atheists and agnostics.

I have no problem with other religious beliefs as long as the person practices their religion. I have had friends who were Conservative and Orthodox Jews, observant Protestants, and practicing Catholics, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Muslims. I have a problem with other religions like “re-construcitionists” and others because they deliberately ignore doctrines, traditions, and moral teachings of their faith that are explicit and essential. My attitude is that if you are a Catholic, be a faithful Catholic, if you are a Jew, Hindu, Protestant, Muslim, etc. be a faithful one who tries their best to obey, serve, and love God. Those are the people of faith I have great respect and admiration for. I know that many struggle with their faith, but that is different than deciding to embrace a sin and tell yourself and the world that it is ok.

 

[thoff3]

I agree that this would not be the time to engage in a debate, but I also think it would be appropriate for you to politely decline the invitation. They’re not asking you there to have a debate about homosexual marriage. They’re trying to convince you that it’s okay. That’s an insult to your beliefs and is typical of liberals. They have no problem foisting their opinions on you, but heaven help us if you try and even explain your opinion.

Regarding homosexuality, the argument against Paul is factually not correct. While Paul, as a formerly devout Jew, would not have approved of homosexuality, it was rampant and accepted at the time in Roman society. Men were expected to marry (and could only marry women), but it was perfectly alright to engage in homosexual practices at brothels, parties, etc. Paul, devout Jews, and Christians at the time were in a strict minority, as we are now about to be again. (Reverse paganism, I call it.)

 

[Michelle_in_WV]

I understand the term “closet Catholic” now; thank you for explaining it. I felt the same way about myself while I was waiting for my RCIA class to start.

Life was easier back when Catholics and Protestants all believed that the Bible was authoritative. I have a friend who is a Catholic woman in her 60’s, and while she believes that sins really are sins, she also thinks that St. Paul was a misogynist (someone who hates women). Whenever I tell her that he did not hate women, she says, “Paul was not God.” This has been going on for a little over two years, and I have not been able to get through to her.

Situations like this one are frustrating, and I don’t know how to solve it. All I do is defend St. Paul whenever the topic comes up, and I pray to God that He would give her the ability to understand.

You could try a similar tactic today; defend our traditional, Scriptural beliefs if you are challenged on something, and pray for God to enlighten the people.

Good luck, and I will be praying for you!

• Michelle

 

[Ilyusha]

This is why I sometimes struggle to be a Christian. Because being a Christian means I have to share that title with sick, bigoted, intolerant, uncompassionate, ignorant and disgusting homophobes. If you think that homosexuality is a sin, you lack compassion, and a brain.

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

This is why I sometimes struggle to be a Christian. Because being a Christian means I have to share that title with sick, bigoted, intolerant, uncompassionate, ignorant and disgusting homophobes. If you think that homosexuality is a sin, you lack compassion, and a brain.

I am not a bigot nor homophobic. I also believe homosexuality along with contraception, fornication, adultery, pornography, and many other acts of sexual impurity are sins. Does this mean I lack compassion or love? Of course not. Some one who masturbates or remarries all the time is as greater or even a greater sinner even though our culture embraces these sins. I still love these people as my neighbors and pray for them.

You are really barking up the wrong tree. My sister is living as a lesbian and I love her with all my heart and I pray for her to find God. I am also a Black Catholic, who has close Jewish, Muslim, and secular friends. Bigot does not apply to me.

 

[Lead_Me_Home]

At the “Baptist” Church I visited today with the lesbian assistant pastor I was shocked, not about the homosexuality part. At this church the minister said that he did not believe Jesus was God, the Son of God, or part of the Blessed Trinity. He did not see Baptism as a Sacrament for the remission of sins, nor did he believe Christ was Crucified for our salvation. He also said that he identifies as Christian. I believe that if he is Christian, he is on the extreme fringes of the faith.

I asked him a lot of questions, but I was respectful as I struggled to understand his perspective. I can still say that I love him as a neighbor, despite the heresy he embraces. I can only pray for him.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m saddened that schools are offering classes designed to teach “pluralism”, butI can’t say I’m supprised. Was taking the class a requirement or something? Of course there’s nothing wrong with learning about and understanding someone else’s faith tradition. More over it’s good to be offer others respect even when you disagree with their beliefs (heck, it’s a powerful witness for Christianity ). But pluralism is a grave error, it’s polytheism masked.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

At the “Baptist” Church I visited today with the lesbian assistant pastor I was shocked, not about the homosexuality part. At this church the minister said that he did not believe Jesus was God, the Son of God, or part of the Blessed Trinity. He did not see Baptism as a Sacrament for the remission of sins, nor did he believe Christ was Crucified for our salvation. He also said that he identifies as Christian. I believe that if he is Christian, he is on the extreme fringes of the faith.

I asked him a lot of questions, but I was respectful as I struggled to understand his perspective. I can still say that I love him as a neighbor, despite the heresy he embraces. I can only pray for him.

I can’t believe he’s trying to call himself a “Baptist”. There are many kinds of Baptists, from ultra fundamentalist to middle of the road to more liberal, but one thing they all have in commen is their belief in Christ as the 2nd Person of the Trinity and the Redeemer. This guy just needs to admit he’s a Unitarian.

I’m sorry this is being "required’ of you. Are you going to go get to visit a Catholic church, Mosque, Orthodox Jewish synagogue, and Fundamentalist church for compare and contrast, or is this “teacher” only interesting in pushing his liberal agenda on the students?

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[thoff3]

This is why I sometimes struggle to be a Christian. Because being a Christian means I have to share that title with sick, bigoted, intolerant, uncompassionate, ignorant and disgusting homophobes. If you think that homosexuality is a sin, you lack compassion, and a brain.

Wow. It seems you also struggle with Christianity’s call to be gentle and respectful when engaged in dialogue.

It is not only I who think homosexual acts are a sin, it is the official, unchanged teaching of the Catholic Church.

I rather think that accepting homosexual acts as not sinless may be the more unthinking act since the person who engages in them is responding to feelings more than reason.

But this is the problem of our day. As the secular dogma becomes more and more settled on homosexuality, the Christian position becomes intolerable and those who profess it the objects of scorn, ridicule, and even legal action.

Christ said we all have to take up our cross, so I guess we shouldn’t be surprised.

The irony of being labelled intolerant by defenders of homosexuality who do not tolerate opposing views is endless.

 

[kage_ar]

Find a new group to hang out with - maybe substitute a Catholic club or a pro-life club.

 

[RobbyS]

I agree that this would not be the time to engage in a debate, but I also think it would be appropriate for you to politely decline the invitation. They’re not asking you there to have a debate about homosexual marriage. They’re trying to convince you that it’s okay. That’s an insult to your beliefs and is typical of liberals. They have no problem foisting their opinions on you, but heaven help us if you try and even explain your opinion.

Regarding homosexuality, the argument against Paul is factually not correct. While Paul, as a formerly devout Jew, would not have approved of homosexuality, it was rampant and accepted at the time in Roman society. Men were expected to marry (and could only marry women), but it was perfectly alright to engage in homosexual practices at brothels, parties, etc. Paul, devout Jews, and Christians at the time were in a strict minority, as we are now about to be again. (Reverse paganism, I call it.)

Nor “perfectly alright to engage in homosexual practices " in Roman society. Especially in conservative circles, it was looked down upon as a” Greek" practice. Amng the Greeks, pederasty was a common practice, but sex with other mature men was not the the practice. Alcibiades got in trouble because he was a complete libertine. Modern homosexuality is a historical novelty.

 

[RobbyS]

I understand the term “closet Catholic” now; thank you for explaining it. I felt the same way about myself while I was waiting for my RCIA class to start.

Life was easier back when Catholics and Protestants all believed that the Bible was authoritative. I have a friend who is a Catholic woman in her 60’s, and while she believes that sins really are sins, she also thinks that St. Paul was a misogynist (someone who hates women). Whenever I tell her that he did not hate women, she says, “Paul was not God.” This has been going on for a little over two years, and I have not been able to get through to her.

Situations like this one are frustrating, and I don’t know how to solve it. All I do is defend St. Paul whenever the topic comes up, and I pray to God that He would give her the ability to understand.

You could try a similar tactic today; defend our traditional, Scriptural beliefs if you are challenged on something, and pray for God to enlighten the people.

Good luck, and I will be praying for you!

• Michelle

Can you get the old lady to read what Paul said? The worst that can be said about
Paul’s conception of the place of women was his “model” was that of a noble Jewish, Greek or Roman family( I am thinking of Ephesians 5). Wasn’t Lydia the first to welcome him into Europe? My guess is that he probably had more followers among women, but due courtesy had to be given to the male head of family.

 

[RobbyS]

At the “Baptist” Church I visited today with the lesbian assistant pastor I was shocked, not about the homosexuality part. At this church the minister said that he did not believe Jesus was God, the Son of God, or part of the Blessed Trinity. He did not see Baptism as a Sacrament for the remission of sins, nor did he believe Christ was Crucified for our salvation. He also said that he identifies as Christian. I believe that if he is Christian, he is on the extreme fringes of the faith.

I asked him a lot of questions, but I was respectful as I struggled to understand his perspective. I can still say that I love him as a neighbor, despite the heresy he embraces. I can only pray for him.

Well, Lincoln was that sort of Baptist. His family was Baptist, but his religious views were a result of his rebellion against his father, and his desire to reclaim the aristocratic status of his grandfather. His uncle, as the heir, had denied Thomas everything, even schoolng, but Lincoln found out that his grandfather had been fairly wealthy. Lincoln was sort of a freethinker and unlike almost every politician of the time refused to join a church. But his Baptist upbringing showed in his familiarity and use of the Bible. If he was a unitarian, it was the theistic unitarianism of the age, not the present form.

 

[crenfro]

At the “Baptist” Church I visited today with the lesbian assistant pastor I was shocked, not about the homosexuality part. At this church the minister said that he did not believe Jesus was God, the Son of God, or part of the Blessed Trinity. He did not see Baptism as a Sacrament for the remission of sins, nor did he believe Christ was Crucified for our salvation. He also said that he identifies as Christian. I believe that if he is Christian, he is on the extreme fringes of the faith.

I asked him a lot of questions, but I was respectful as I struggled to understand his perspective. I can still say that I love him as a neighbor, despite the heresy he embraces. I can only pray for him.

Leadmehome, I’m so glad you’re in RCIA. Welcome to the Catholic faith.

You must already be a really strong Christian to be able so handle such an assignment without having your - almost a Catholic! - faith shaken. My hat’s off to you.

God bless you, and please pray for me. I’ve always been weak in the faith dept. despite being a cradle Catholic.

Keep us posted on your journey to and within the Catholic faith.

 

[dachsiemom2]

I can’t believe he’s trying to call himself a “Baptist”. There are many kinds of Baptists, from ultra fundamentalist to middle of the road to more liberal, but one thing they all have in commen is their belief in Christ as the 2nd Person of the Trinity and the Redeemer. This guy just needs to admit he’s a Unitarian.

I’m sorry this is being "required’ of you. Are you going to go get to visit a Catholic church, Mosque, Orthodox Jewish synagogue, and Fundamentalist church for compare and contrast, or is this “teacher” only interesting in pushing his liberal agenda on the students?

In Christ,

Ellen

Agree with above. Are you sure this person is Baptist - much different Baptist than any I ever encountered.

At one time I worked at an orthodox Jewish nursing home. The rabbi was very visible and loved to engage in conversation with the staff. I can remember him saying that homosexuality is wrong and a learned behavior - most likely typical orthodox belief.

 

[crazzeto]

I can’t believe he’s trying to call himself a “Baptist”. There are many kinds of Baptists, from ultra fundamentalist to middle of the road to more liberal, but one thing they all have in commen is their belief in Christ as the 2nd Person of the Trinity and the Redeemer. This guy just needs to admit he’s a Unitarian.

I’m sorry this is being "required’ of you. Are you going to go get to visit a Catholic church, Mosque, Orthodox Jewish synagogue, and Fundamentalist church for compare and contrast, or is this “teacher” only interesting in pushing his liberal agenda on the students?

In Christ,

Ellen

This may be a common belief amongst baptists, but like all protistant faiths the “baptist” denomination is really only just made up of people that call them selves that. There is effectivly no greater unity among them than that.