Vocation problem

[FraLeones]

i apologize for being too sensitive… and maybe caused some arguments…

i just have a talk with my superior( a priest, the one whom i addressed as superior to whom i said i want to be a saint is our vicar, a perpetual, i call him also my superior, sorry for not stating) and this is what he told me:

"My child, i have allowed them (the professed religious) to treat you in that way because of all the 60 postulants you belong to the one who really talk to Him with a heart. You possessed a deeper understanding above your batchmates and had the greatest possibility for holiness. We humbled you, gave you trials different than others because you are in a different stage than them. You are closer to Him. They might be mean but i knew you could endure the torments. Your vocation is to love, to be a victim soul, consecrated and consumed for others. You are for Religious life but not at this time. we have found the following in you:

• your illness might get worse
  -you are still not ready for the life we have
  -conflicts on family.

but we will welcome you if you would ever be back. I recommend you to return after 4 years. You still have mission outside the walls of His home. Love more my child.

– so then i understood everything. Thank you to all of you. You made me strong

 

[Julia_Mae]

Well, not being especially holy in all sorts of ways, I don’t know if I will be saint…

It’s hell or Sainthood, we don’t have much other choice.

FraLeones, pray for me. I think you are well on your way to sanctity.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have never understood why people believe that bishops can solve every problem in a diocese when it concerns religious or clergy. The laws are very clear, The Councils are very clear and the constitutions of the religious community are very clear. People just have to pick them up and read them.

When I was about 12, one hot summer day, my mother told me to go outside and water the grass. I had never watered the grass before, it was something my Dad always did. But I’d seen him get the hose and go outside and stand on the lawn moving around, so I did that. I came inside about ten minutes later and my mother started yelling at me, That’s not enough, what’s wrong with you, get back out and do it right! This went on for a while until I figured out I was supposed to stand out there for a long time.

I didn’t know. In my 12 years I could not remember a single time anyone had ever talked to me about grass-watering. I didn’t take much notice of it, I just know my Dad walked around with the hose. I didn’t time him. I barely noticed.

But my mother had known so much about grass-watering for so long, she just thought I was being lazy, because I must know, everyone knows how to do something as simple as water the grass, right?

I know we are a trial for you, Brother, we disobedient, impatient, ignorant, lay people who seem to think we have answers instead of asking for them. We are sorry to be a trial to you. Most of us are too dumb to know we ought to have asked the question. No one ever thought to tell us.

It’s why we all love you so much. Because you take the time to tell us. Thank you very much for telling us. Please don’t stop.

 

[JReducation]

When I was about 12, one hot summer day, my mother told me to go outside and water the grass. I had never watered the grass before, it was something my Dad always did. But I’d seen him get the hose and go outside and stand on the lawn moving around, so I did that. I came inside about ten minutes later and my mother started yelling at me, That’s not enough, what’s wrong with you, get back out and do it right! This went on for a while until I figured out I was supposed to stand out there for a long time.

I didn’t know. In my 12 years I could not remember a single time anyone had ever talked to me about grass-watering. I didn’t take much notice of it, I just know my Dad walked around with the hose. I didn’t time him. I barely noticed.

But my mother had known so much about grass-watering for so long, she just thought I was being lazy, because I must know, everyone knows how to do something as simple as water the grass, right?

I know we are a trial for you, Brother, we disobedient, impatient, ignorant, lay people who seem to think we have answers instead of asking for them. We are sorry to be a trial to you. Most of us are too dumb to know we ought to have asked the question. No one ever thought to tell us.

It’s why we all love you so much. Because you take the time to tell us. Thank you very much for telling us. Please don’t stop.

Good gravy! I would never call you dumb. I have to admit that I have met my fair share of people whom make me scratch my head; but dumb is not a word that I would use to describe these folks either.

I do believe this though. American Catholics are almost too American and as a result most do not understand the Church’s infrastructure. In situations like this, American Catholics tend to think that bishops and religious superiors are like business executives or government officials who can summarily make rules, punish that one, get rid of the other and speak out on anything they want, because they have a rank and title.

In our culture, if someone does something that offends us or we believe that it violates our rights, we take them to court. That’s because in our legal system, justices or judges are almost like monarchs. Their decisions and interpretations of law are absolute. A judge can make a decision about any case in his courtroom without consulting. He can only be overturned in an appeal.

The Catholic Church’s system of government is not based on this at all. It’s very hierarchical. There are classes of people and there are laws and governing bodies for each class of persons, just as in the old days there were the House of Lords and the House of Commons to deal with the issues of each social class. The Church maintains that same structure. There is the secular and the religious. Bishops belong to the secular world and deal with secular Catholics: laity and diocesan clergy. Religious superiors belong to the religious world and deal with the consecrated Catholic: regular clergy, religious brothers and religious sisters, secular orders, monks and friars.

For each house, secular and religious, there is a system of government and very specific laws. There is also a chain of command. Both chains lead up to the pope.

Then there is another carryover from European monarchic government. In European parliamentary government the House of Lords can exercise authority over the common citizen, but the House of Commons cannot exercise authority over the peers (lords). The same is true in the Church. A religious superior can exercise authority over the secular laity, but the bishop cannot exercise authority over the religious.

It’s only an analogy and all analogies a imperfect, but I can’t think of a better way of explaining the system.

Americans need to keep in mind, “I’m American, the Church is not.” Starting from there, you begin to ask, “Who runs what?” Once I learned to remind myself that the Church is not American, I was OK. :yup: I never approached the Church like an American again. I know that I’m part of an organization that has social classes with rights and privileges and separate rules and different lines of authority, all of which lead back to the Holy Father. And that people in my social class have specific rights and duties according to our station.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

thank you people…

i am a man and i understand all of you. i will also pray for you and mention you to Jesus,

please help me too in discerning,

im pretty much contacting my family and they are about to accept everything…

i dont know what i did which is wrong that where ever i go, i am mistreated,

i just keep silent, offer it to the Lord and love my persecutors.

im about to be in despair

*Dear FraLeones,

I was very touched by your posting. I will offer my prayers for you today.

Please do not give up on your dream of a vocation. I am not sure what your home country is? I would suggest you speak to your Parish Priest or if you don’t feel comfortable doing that perhaps you could contact the vocation director for your Diocese? (Or perhaps find a Spiritual Director) If you are indeed called to religious life either as a Diocesan Priest, Order Priest or Brother I am sure that they can help you to find a community that would welcome you.
You have age on your side so don’t be afraid to let other religious help you to explore your many options. Sometimes one must “try” different communities to find the right one for you. So be of Good Hope. Pray to our Blessed Mother and the Holy Spirit for guidance. Most of all don’t become discouraged… if you are called to a religious vocation it will happen.

Blessings,
Sr. Debbie, O.S.C.

 

[iloveangels]

Good gravy! I would never call you dumb. I have to admit that I have met my fair share of people whom make me scratch my head; but dumb is not a word that I would use to describe these folks either.

…

Americans need to keep in mind, “I’m American, the Church is not.” Starting from there, you begin to ask, “Who runs what?” Once I learned to remind myself that the Church is not American, I was OK. :yup: I never approached the Church like an American again. I know that I’m part of an organization that has social classes with rights and privileges and separate rules and different lines of authority, all of which lead back to the Holy Father. And that people in my social class have specific rights and duties according to our station.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

One of the reasons American Catholics are so “American” is because they have been left to their own devices for so long. The information we need is simply not available to us most of the time, and there is very little in the way of education in our faith. When a layperson absolutely has to make decisions and “get on with it” because of time constraints that exist in lay life, they have to use what information and guidance they have, and most of it frankly has not been Catholic because that’s been absent to most laypeople. [There are time constraints in the nature of our work and family lives, ie raising children through stages of x-years and so on.]

The internet has helped a lot, and it’s enabled conversations like this one, which help a great deal. Also the Church is waking up from its long sleep now in the US, and there are an increasing number of classes for the laity, since the Church is getting increasingly worried about the number of people leaving and evangelization. And all that is wonderful, but not enough.

We need more information and more education as Catholics. The lack of these things are why so many Catholics don’t know their faith, let alone these finer points like how religious orders work.

PS, just so people don’t get the idea that the Church is more unfair about classes than the rest of society: America does have social classes and they are just as tight and exclusive as anything in the Church, if not more so. They’re just different than the ones in the Church. That’s all. No one in American society likes to admit this because we are supposed to have particular theoretical ideas about that and that’s American “doctrine,” but on the ground, we certainly do have social classes. All societies do, and probably always will. It’s not the classes that are the problem, it’s the warfare between them and the conditions within them that are the problems. Americans have also historically had their class definitions constituted crazily–by money and race primarily, even though these things aren’t really indicators of anything much but money and race. Go figure. McCulture may have existed before McDonalds.

 

[iloveangels]

One of the reasons American Catholics are so “American” is because they have been left to their own devices for so long.

…

And it’s not only just information. There’s a lot to be said for being around enough other Catholics so that you learn to “live the life.” This is very important. Catholicism isn’t just a “head trip,” but that escapes a lot of Americans too, because they don’t know how to really live a Catholic life in a Catholic subculture in America. So they end up just living in America, period. And this is the attitude that affects our ideas about religious life and life in the Church in general. We try to manage it in an “American way” because we manage everything else that way, more or less by default.

I personally think that there’s a way to be Catholic AND American. There just haven’t been very many real models of it that people have been exposed to and learned. And the infrastructure for Catholics learning to “live the life” has to be upgraded in the US. The competition for attention is very aggressive here.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Good gravy! I would never call you dumb.

No, that was me. I feel pretty dumb most of the time because of how much I don’t know. But again, you have left us a great post about the way thing work in the Church.

The Church maintains that same structure. There is the secular and the religious. Bishops belong to the secular world and deal with secular Catholics: laity and diocesan clergy. Religious superiors belong to the religious world and deal with the consecrated Catholic: regular clergy, religious brothers and religious sisters, secular orders, monks and friars.

For each house, secular and religious, there is a system of government and very specific laws. There is also a chain of command. Both chains lead up to the pope.

Then let me ask this, which still seems appropriate to the thread topic. If a man wants to be a priest, he can go to a seminary and become a diocesan priest. That’s “secular,” yes?

But what if he wants to be a Friar and a priest? (See, I just realized I have no idea which of those words should be capitalized friar/priest - that’s why I feel so dumb sometimes.) Does his education/formation as a priest happen in a Franciscan institution? Who ordains him? Not a diocesan Bishop, I’d guess. His own Ordinary, I would think. Another Friar.

Is this correct? Or does he become a diocesan priest first and then become a Friar? Or what?

Thanks. I feel smarter every time I read one of your posts!

 

[Marauder]

But what if he wants to be a Friar and a priest? (See, I just realized I have no idea which of those words should be capitalized friar/priest - that’s why I feel so dumb sometimes.) Does his education/formation as a priest happen in a Franciscan institution? Who ordains him? Not a diocesan Bishop, I’d guess. His own Ordinary, I would think. Another Friar.

Is this correct? Or does he become a diocesan priest first and then become a Friar? Or what?

In general if a person wants to become both a religious and a priest they must first become a member of an Order. They will then need the permission of their superior and others “up the chain” within the Order to become a priest. Several Orders have requirements on the percentages of ordained vs. non-ordained within the Order. If they determine you can become a priest they will either send you to their own seminaries (if they have them) or to other seminaries for the appropriate training. You can say you want to be a priest all you want, but if your superiors do not wi.sh it, it won’t happen.

The reason I say this is how things happen in general is because there can be diocesan priests that join Orders and things like that. Of course things like that require both permission of the Bishop and the proper authority within the Order. However that isn’t the typical route. It all depends on calling. You tend to be called to either diocesan priesthood or the religious life. Things vary Order by Order on how they determine whether people are called to the priesthood.

 

[iloveangels]

No, that was me. I feel pretty dumb most of the time because of how much I don’t know. But again, you have left us a great post about the way thing work in the Church.

Then let me ask this, which still seems appropriate to the thread topic. If a man wants to be a priest, he can go to a seminary and become a diocesan priest. That’s “secular,” yes?

But what if he wants to be a Friar and a priest? (See, I just realized I have no idea which of those words should be capitalized friar/priest - that’s why I feel so dumb sometimes.) Does his education/formation as a priest happen in a Franciscan institution? Who ordains him? Not a diocesan Bishop, I’d guess. His own Ordinary, I would think. Another Friar.

Is this correct? Or does he become a diocesan priest first and then become a Friar? Or what?

Thanks. I feel smarter every time I read one of your posts!

I can tell you how the Dominicans do their priestly formation.

He enters the order and progresses through basic formation, then if the order agrees and needs a priest, he goes to seminary. The particular seminary he goes to depends on the order, although the larger orders, like the Dominicans, Franciscans, etc always have their own seminaries. As part of his training some classes might be taken outside the order or not as part of his preparation program. Some of the big orders also move seminarians around from friary to friary as part of formation in getting along with people. They usually also get some practical formation in work or other apostolates as part of this formation too.

When he is finished with seminary, he’s ordained a deacon by the ordinary of the diocese he’s currently in or his province is in, under the auspices of the order. This is a cooperation between the order and the diocese. About 6 months later, if everything goes correctly, he’s ordained a priest by the ordinary of the diocese he’s currently living in or the diocese his province is in. [The ordinary is the bishop, archbishop or cardinal who currently has responsibility for the diocese.]

The reason so much of this is done inside the order is that the larger orders with distinct charisms would like their priests and brothers formed according to those charisms, as distinct from a more general Catholic parish priest type charism. They usually want their men to speak more than one language and be academically well-educated and socially more international in viewpoint. They want them to think like the Church, and within that, to think with their order. The Catholic church is a profoundly international and historical institution, and their formation almost always reflects that. This is one of the big practical differences between diocesan and religious order priests.

Because of all this, religious orders generally prefer to train their own, as opposed to getting men who have already been formed in another way.

In smaller orders that don’t have their own seminaries, I believe the training is much more like a parish priest, but that depends on what resources the smaller orders have available to them.

 

[iloveangels]

In general if a person wants to become both a religious and a priest they must first become a member of an Order. They will then need the permission of their superior and others “up the chain” within the Order to become a priest. Several Orders have requirements on the percentages of ordained vs. non-ordained within the Order. If they determine you can become a priest they will either send you to their own seminaries (if they have them) or to other seminaries for the appropriate training. You can say you want to be a priest all you want, but if your superiors do not wi.sh it, it won’t happen.

The reason I say this is how things happen in general is because there can be diocesan priests that join Orders and things like that. Of course things like that require both permission of the Bishop and the proper authority within the Order. However that isn’t the typical route. It all depends on calling. You tend to be called to either diocesan priesthood or the religious life. Things vary Order by Order on how they determine whether people are called to the priesthood.

Correct. When a person approaches an order*, there must be a mutual discernment of vocation on both the part of the person who discerns, and the order* which discerns. If one or both don’t believe there is a true vocation to the order*, the person will not be allowed to enter for their own good, and for the good of the order.*

Once in the order*, for men, the same process is followed for discerning a vocation to the priesthood within the order.* To enter a religious order* is not to have a guarantee of ordination. Some orders expect most of their brothers to be ordained; some don’t. Which it is generally depends on the charism of the order*. Some men have a vocation to ordination; some don’t.

*when I speak of order, I’m speaking of orders, congregations, all sorts of religious life.

 

[White_Peony]

i once told my superior

me: i aspire to be a saint
him: you cant. your weak
me: yes i am, i will be saint
him: no, you cant even enter heaven

i felt so down

Your superior sounds like my mom. I always run to Our Lady. I will definately pray for you.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

No, that was me. I feel pretty dumb most of the time because of how much I don’t know. But again, you have left us a great post about the way thing work in the Church.

Then let me ask this, which still seems appropriate to the thread topic. If a man wants to be a priest, he can go to a seminary and become a diocesan priest. That’s “secular,” yes?

But what if he wants to be a Friar and a priest? (See, I just realized I have no idea which of those words should be capitalized friar/priest - that’s why I feel so dumb sometimes.) Does his education/formation as a priest happen in a Franciscan institution? Who ordains him? Not a diocesan Bishop, I’d guess. His own Ordinary, I would think. Another Friar.

Is this correct? Or does he become a diocesan priest first and then become a Friar? Or what?

Thanks. I feel smarter every time I read one of your posts!

I’ve discerned being a Franciscan Priest for almost a year, so I think I can be of some help.

First off, when it comes to spelling, if you’re saying priest or friar as a profession, it’s a lowercase P and F. If you’re referring to a particular friar, such as Friar Jay, or a particular priest, then you use capitals. However, even though it is incorrect, I always use capital F’s and P’s when saying Friar or Priest.

Now, in terms of becoming a Franciscan Priest, you must first enter the Community. Then, you will be a postulant for a year or so. Once you begin your novitiate, and the Superior says you can, you will start studying at a Seminary. You will profess final vows before being ordained, as Seminary lasts seven to nine years, and being able to profess final vows takes five to six upon entering the Community.

On whether or not the Seminary is a Franciscan’s or not, it depends. Franciscans aren’t scholastic, so usually they don’t have schools. However, sometimes they do, and I’m certain there’s at least one Community of Franciscan Friars with a Seminary. If so, the Friars will study for the Priesthood there. If not, as is the most common case, the Community will send you to a Seminary near you.

On who ordains the Friars, this depends. Sometimes a Franciscan Priest is a Bishop, such as Bishop Chaput of Denver, Colorado, whom is a Capuchin Franciscan. Friars studying for the Priesthood will be ordained by him. In other cases, you have Communities that don’t have a Bishop, so they will be ordained by the Bishop of the Diocese.

Brother Jay will probably know more about the subject in the paragraph above, and he’ll most likely correct me on a few things, but I hope to have helped a little bit.

If you have anymore questions, don’t be afraid to ask.

 

[Julia_Mae]

On who ordains the Friars, this depends. Sometimes a Franciscan Priest is a Bishop, such as Bishop Chaput of Denver, Colorado, whom is a Capuchin Franciscan. Friars studying for the Priesthood will be ordained by him. In other cases, you have Communities that don’t have a Bishop, so they will be ordained by the Bishop of the Diocese.

Brother Jay will probably know more about the subject in the paragraph above, and he’ll most likely correct me on a few things, but I hope to have helped a little bit.

.

Thank you. I became interested when I foud out that the word “Ordinary” isn’t just a Diocesan Bishop. Franciscans especially, being not under the authority of a Diocesan Bishop, then, I thought might ordain their own priests.
I had read the Decree on the Reform of Ecclesiastical Studies of Philosophy a while back and I wondered if the Vatican decrees all the classes you have to take to get whatever degree is required before Ordination. Or, do seminaries vary and these are “more like guidelines?”

 

[FraLeones]

though i could not understand most of you i just want to say that i dont want to be a priest. i just want to be a religious brother. but if He wills me to be then i will obey. Who am i that my Lord should come to me, call me to follow Him in the midst of my nothingness and despair, He already imprinted a YES on my soul, who am i to say NO?

i will pray and offer my life to you o souls dearest to my Jesus!
o souls! i know You thirst for my Crucified Master!
PRAY so i may die for all of you
o SOULS dear to Him and now to me too…
pray! pray! penance! penance!!

remain unnoticed! contemplate how YOU are small and how Jesus made Himself smaller just to come to your heart! How much grace He bestowed upon your soul that He made your heart possible to contain Him while heaven could not contain His majesty.

 

[JReducation]

Well first of all, there is no such a creature as a Franciscan priest. There are priests who are Franciscan Friars. The words priest and Franciscan, Benedictine, Cistercian, Trappist, Trinitarian and Servite do not go together. These are orders of brothers. The original term was frater, but was bastardized as the modern European languages emerged and they went from frater to friar. Frater means brother. If you belong to one of the above mentioned orders, you are a brother or friar. In some communities the ordained friars are not allowed to be called Father. They are called Brother John or Friar John.

If you join a diocese or a society of priests, you remain a secular Catholic. These men do not vow to live according to the Evangelical Counsels. Therefore, they are not consecrated religious. However, once ordained, they are deacons, priests and bishops, whichever applies. For example, every diocesan priest and deacon is a secular Catholic. We normally refer to them a diocesan priests. Every Maryknoll, Missionhurst, Opus Dei, FSSP, ICKSP, and SSPX is also a secular Catholic. They too are secular priests. Since they do not belong to a diocese, but to a society, they are not called Diocesan Priests. You refer to them by the society to which they belong.

Men who join a diocese will be ordained by the bishop of that diocese. At the time of the ordination to the diaconate, they promise to obey the bishop and his successors. If they are single, they promise to remain celibate until death. They also promise to pray the LOTH for the Church.

If a man joins a society, the superior of the society must ask a bishop to ordain his men. He can ask any bishop to do it, as long as the bishop is in good standing with the Church. This excludes the SSPX bishops and the Orthodox bishops. He can even ask an Eastern Catholic bishop to ordain his men.

If a man is called to both religious life and the priesthood, he goes through two formation programs simultaneously. He must go through the formation program for religious life which can run from 6 to 10 years between the time that he becomes a postulant and the time that he makes perpetual profession of vows. Canonically, he becomes a religious on the day that he begins the novitiate. But he does not make vows until the end of the novitiate.

Canon Law requires that he complete his formation as a religious before he can be ordained a priest. This is how seriously Canon Law takes the religious life.

While he is being formed in the religious life, the is also working on his degree to be a priest. Yes, Franciscans must have at least a Master’s Degree to be ordained, a doctorate is preferred. It is a false notion that Franciscans are not scholarly or scholastic. Franciscans taught at the universities of Parish, Oxford, Padua, Salamanca, Seraphicum, since the 13th century, while Francis was still alive. They have been scientists, theologians, physicians, historians, scripture scholars and many other since the 1200s. Anthony of Padua was a Doctor of Sacred Scripture. Bonaventure was a Doctor of Philosophy and a Doctor of Systematic Theology. Lawrence of Brindisi was a Doctor of Systematic Theology and today we have men like Fr. Benedict Groeschel who is a Doctor of Psychology. I’m a Doctor of Spiritual Theology. You do not have to a priest to be a doctor. However, you must have at least a Master’s degree to be ordained.

The Ordinary for a religious community is always the major superior. Only he can give permission for a man to make vows and to be ordained. You cannot make vows or be ordained, because you feel that you have a calling. The major superior has to agree that you have a calling. In those communities that were founded as brotherhoods, there is no obligation to ordain. Therefore, after the man makes perpetual vows, the major superior can decide that the man does not have a vocation to be a priest and can deny permission for Holy Orders. This rarely happens, but it can happen. He has the canonical right to make this decision.

Normally, during the years between the time that you enter and the time that you make perpetual vows, you and the community will discuss your place in the community and in the Church. Together you will discern. By the time that you make perpetual vows, there are no surprises. You will know if you’re going to get permission to be ordained. The law is open for surprises, just in case.

If the superior feels that you have a vocation to the priesthood, he must see to it that you are ordained a deacon and then a priest. The superior will approach any bishop of his choosing and ask him to ordain you. The bishop has no vote in the matter, because he is not the Ordinary over the religious.

However, the bishop can decline to ordain, in which case, the superior must find another bishop. That’s all. The bishop does not trump the superior, even though the superior may not be a bishop or even a priest. The superior remains the highest authority in the order.

At the ordination, the bishop will ask if these men have been examined and found worthy. The superior will swear that they have. The bishop proceeds to ordain them. The difference between this ordination and that of a diocesan priest is that these men do not promise to obey the bishop. They do not promise to remain celibate and they do not promise to pray the LOTH.

They have already made a vow of obedience to their superior. They have already made a vow of chastity, which covers celibacy and more, and the constitution of their order already requires that they pray the LOTH. They’re bound to the constitution, because they solemnly vowed to obey until death.

They are not incardinated into the diocese of the ordaining bishop. If you belong to a religious community, you do not belong to any diocese. You are incardinated into the community the moment that you become a novice.

 

[JReducation]

Priests who belong to secular societies, such as the ones that I mentioned above, are not incardinated into the diocese of the ordaining bishop either. They are incardinated into the society. The live and work where the society allows. The difference between them and religious is that they do not live the consecrated life. They can leave the society at any point and join a diocese or join a religious order.

A priest who joins a religious order does not have to go through priestly formation. He already did that. However, he must go through the 6 to 10 years of religious formation. He begins as a postulant and works his way up to perpetual profession. Until he makes vows he is on leave of absence from his diocese or from the society that he left behind.

A priest cannot leave a diocese to enter a religious order or cannot leave a society to enter a religious order without the agreement between the two authorities. The bishop of the diocese or superior of the society must give him permission to leave and the superior of the order must give him permission to enter. While he’s in formation, he can return to his former state or the community can dismiss him and send him back.

It works the other way around too. Some men leave a religious order, because they feel that they do not have a vocation to the consecrated life, but they feel that they have a vocation to the priesthood. They ask to be admitted to a diocese. The bishop of the diocese has to admit him. The superior of the religious community must give him a leave of absence. He remains a religious while he tries his life as a diocesan priest. Normally, he can do this for up to five years. At the end of those years, he must decide. If he decides that he wants to be a diocesan priest, he has one more hurdle. He must get the Holy Father’s permission to leave his order.

This is the difference between being a religious and being a secular priest. A secular priest can leave his diocese to enter the religious life without involving the Holy See. A priest who is a religious cannot leave the religious life to become a secular priest without the dispensation from the Holy See. Even if the bishop and the superior agree, the Holy See can tell the priest that he must remain in his religious community. Usually, the Holy See will grant a dispensation from vows. The priest ceases to be a consecrated religious and becomes a secular man. He is then free to become permanently incardinated into the diocese.

In both cases, secular and religious, if a man is to be a priest, he must complete a Master’s Degree and be ordained by a bishop. In the case of a religious, the superior selects the bishop. The bishop need not be the bishop of the local diocese nor a bishop from his community. It’s up to the superior to choose one.

Often, there are ordinations in groups where several religious communities bring all their men to be ordained by a bishop in a single ordination mass. This happens a lot at the Vatican and at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington. These are places that have many religious communities living in the same area and they have many houses of formation.

As to where we study theology, that’s up the superior. Some men attend a seminary, some attend a theologate just for religious and some attend a university. I attended a university. If you’re a religious, you attend classes, but you live with your community. Where I went to school, we had a house on the edge of the campus. I could throw a stone over the wall into the university. Some of my confreres attended school at a theologate for religious. This is a graduate school that only religious may attend. Some attend the diocesan seminary, but do not live with the diocesan seminarians. The live with the community in a residence near the seminary. I know of one community that actually lives in a wing of the diocesan seminary. They attended classes together and live in the same building as two separate bodies. It’s kind of weird, but it works for them. It protects the diocesan seminarians from becoming like the religious.

You don’t want that to happen, because when they get out of the seminary, they are not going to be living in a community of religious with all of the structure and intimacy. They will be very lonely. They have to get used to living in a community of men who relate as brothers to one another, but retain their autonomy. Each has his own car, TV, money, schedule, wardrobe, family and friends, etc. Even though they pray, play, study and eat together.

Complicated stuff.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Nowhere_Man]

Well first of all, there is no such a creature as a Franciscan priest. There are priests who are Franciscan Friars. The words priest and Franciscan, Benedictine, Cistercian, Trappist, Trinitarian and Servite do not go together. These are orders of brothers. The original term was frater, but was bastardized as the modern European languages emerged and they went from frater to friar. Frater means brother. If you belong to one of the above mentioned orders, you are a brother or friar. In some communities the ordained friars are not allowed to be called Father. They are called Brother John or Friar John.

As always, you beat me to the punch, Brother, and thankfully so ; your explanation is a thousand times more elegant and informative than what I could ever dream of writing. You are a tremendous gift to our forum.

 

[JReducation]

though i could not understand most of you i just want to say that i dont want to be a priest. i just want to be a religious brother.

He already imprinted a YES on my soul, who am i to say NO?

With all due respect and kindness, I wish to suggest some things to you.

I do formation work. If I had a young man speaking the way that you write, it would send up all kinds of red flags in my mind. It sounds as if you are parroting the saints of old. This was their manner of writing. I’m not even sure that they actually spoke this way in day to day conversation. My guess, from what I’ve studied, is that they were pretty plain spoken people. Even someone like St. Francis, who was a poet, wrote very poetically, but spoke in very practical and everyday language.

For example, you said,* “He already imprinted a YES on my soul, who am i to say NO?”* Even the poetic St.Francis of Assisi or St. John of the Cross would not speak this way in daily intercourse with other Catholics. This may be found in one of their spiritual writings. In everyday exchange they would probably say something such as, “I’m willing to give whatever God asks of me.” To the trained ear of a formation director, this does not sound like the typical manner of speaking of a young man. This would concern him, because this young man has to live in a community of brothers where he has to communicate and integrate with them, not stand out by his manner of speech or external expressions of zeal.

Zeal is always good, but the religious must always fit in with his community. If the manner and language is too different from that of his brothers, integration is almost impossible. It is different when God singles out the individual as in the case of the mystics. Even they did not like it. St. Teresa of Jesus always said, “Lord, you have a way of showing up at the most inopportune moments,” when she had a mystical experience in front of all her sisters. She was embarrassed. Francis of Assisi only spoke to Brother Leo about his stigmata and commanded him not to speak about it until after he was dead. They knew that he had the stigmata and that something wonderful had happened, but Francis went about with life as usual or as usual as he could given his poor health at that time. Do you get the idea?

To be a religious, you must be simple. Simplicity means that one blends in with one’s community. When we enter religious life we must remember that it is we who are joining the community. The community is not joining us. Therefore, it is we who must adjust how we speak, work, act and do many things to fit into the daily life of the community. A religious who does not fit into the daily life of the community is destined to be very lonely. Community life is not for loneliness. On the contrary, it should be a foretaste of heaven.

My second piece of advice is be aware of how you say that you want to be a religious brother. You said, “I just want to be a religious brother.”

The “just” in that sentence is a point of contention is most religious communities today. There are all kinds of brothers. Some are choir monks, some are priests, some are lay brothers, some are apostolic brothers, some are coadjutor brothers, some are friars and so forth. Each makes his contribution to the Church. There was a period between Vatican I and Vatican II when the non ordained brothers were treated exactly as you are saying. The ordained and the laity would say to them, “You’re JUST a brother.” They took away their rights to vote in community, to pray with their community, to sit at the same table to eat with priests, to have friends among the laity, to go to school unless they were going to teach, to speak unless they were spoken to, to pray in the same chapel as priests and seminarians.

It was such a horrible segregation that the Church intervened at Vatican II and issued Perfectae Caritatis and Bl. John Paul II intervened again and issued Vita Consacrata. Both documents restored the brothers to their rightful place in the Church and the community, restored their rights and emphatically dictated to the laity and to the clergy that the brother is an essential part of the Church, not JUST a brother. Without him, the Church misses a grace that can only come through the presence of the brother and a lot of apostolic works will die without the brother. Bl. John Paul makes this very clear in Vita Consacrata.

Some brothers are scholars and some are beggars. Some are handymen and some are superiors of houses. One was even elected pope (long story for another thread). The self-deprecating, “I just want to be a brother” will send more red flags up. A more correct way would be to say “I believe that I’m called to religious life, but not to the priesthood.” Said that way, you’re making a distinction between the two callings without making one inferior to the other.

To recap, try to speak as a person you age would speak. One can be virtuous in speech and be very typical at the same time. If you want an example, study Bl. Pierre Giorgio Frassatti. The boy had a wonderful sense of humor. Before he died, instead of saying some very pious words he asked one of his friends to take a note. He started, “On Monday, take care of this. On Tues don’t forget that Mrs X needs this. On Thurs there are the kids at CCD, etc etc.” St. Francis of Asisi, as he lay dying told Br. Leo, “Write this down.” He proceeded to give his brothers one final scolding, not very pious language at all. That was his final testament.

Try to separate the vocation to religious life and the vocation to Holy Orders. See them as different, not on a ladder. They’re not. They are very different and one does not depend on the other. Yet, they need each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

Priests who belong to secular societies, such as the ones that I mentioned above, are not incardinated into the diocese of the ordaining bishop either. They are incardinated into the society. The live and work where the society allows. The difference between them and religious is that they do not live the consecrated life. They can leave the society at any point and join a diocese or join a religious order.

Amazing answers, you write so well and so clearly on these complex things. I think I am only confused about one last thing.

Every Maryknoll, Missionhurst, Opus Dei, FSSP, ICKSP, and SSPX is also a secular Catholic.

I’m not sure I know how to ask the question, so I’ll give a scenario and please tell me how it would really work.

So let’s say a guy is in seminary to be a diocesan priest and he gets to the bachelor’s degree stage and decides it isn’t what he wants. So he goes off to teach school or be a lumberjack or whatever but he also joins Opus Dei. And he misses school (I always miss school, if I were rich I’d be a professional student forever.) and he decides to go for his Master’s in Sacred Theology or something priests have to have.

Okay, so, if he’s been in Opus Dei for like ten years or something, where I guess they have spiritual formation, can he be ordained by a Bishop?

I didn’t even know there were priests in Opus Dei, I thought it was just for lay people. I thought the FSSP was only priests, like something if you are already a priest you join. So I am getting a grasp on the secular and religious and how the formation works. But what about these other things? What are they called and how do they work?