Vocation problem

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Amazing answers, you write so well and so clearly on these complex things. I think I am only confused about one last thing.

I’m not sure I know how to ask the question, so I’ll give a scenario and please tell me how it would really work.

So let’s say a guy is in seminary to be a diocesan priest and he gets to the bachelor’s degree stage and decides it isn’t what he wants. So he goes off to teach school or be a lumberjack or whatever but he also joins Opus Dei. And he misses school (I always miss school, if I were rich I’d be a professional student forever.) and he decides to go for his Master’s in Sacred Theology or something priests have to have.

Okay, so, if he’s been in Opus Dei for like ten years or something, where I guess they have spiritual formation, can he be ordained by a Bishop?
He must enter a discernment period. He must provide documentation that he has taken all of the necessary graduate level courses for ordination and that he completed the degree. There are different degrees in theology, many of them at the master’s level. The master’s degree for priests and brothers has a list of very specific courses that we must take.

If he is a member of Opus Dei, then he must join the FSSC (Fraternal Society of the Holy Cross). This is the priestly society of the Opus Dei. He must go through whatever formation they require and prove that he has the right theological degree. When all is done, the Opus Dei superior can petition a bishop to ordain him, first a deacon and then a priest.
I didn’t even know there were priests in Opus Dei, I thought it was just for lay people.
Opus Dei, Maryknoll, and Oratorians are the oldest fraternal societies of priests in the Church. Opus Dei goes back to the 1930s. Their priestly society is known as the Society of the Holy Cross, not to be confused with the Congregation of the Holy Cross (CSC).

Opus Dei runs one of the largest pontifical universities in Rome, Sancta Crucem. It has a very prestigious school of theology that competes with the Gregorian and the Angelicum.
I thought the FSSP was only priests, like something if you are already a priest you join.
You can enter the FSSP as a seminarian or you can be a priest in a diocese or a religious community and ask to transfer to the FSSP. If you belong to a diocese, it’s a matter of the bishop and the FSSP superior agreeing.

If you belong to a religious community, you must get a dispensation from the consecrated life. Only the Holy See can grant that dispensation. You cannot belong to the FSSP and be a consecrated man. You must be a secular Catholic. It is a secular society.
So I am getting a grasp on the secular and religious and how the formation works. But what about these other things? What are they called and how do they work?
What other things?

Fraternally,

Br.Jr, OSF 🙂
 
What other things?

Fraternally,

Br.Jr, OSF 🙂
The things you already explained, mostly.

One last thing and I think this might be pushing the topic boundary but, so, our erstwhile lumberjack has now become a FSSP priest. Secular. This will sound odd but does he have to stop being a lumberjack? Can he he do that and hear confessions and baptise and marry people? Can he confect the Eucharist … somewhere not in a Church?

(One day I should just sit here and read through the whole CoCL.)
 
He must enter a discernment period. He must provide documentation that he has taken all of the necessary graduate level courses for ordination and that he completed the degree. There are different degrees in theology, many of them at the master’s level. The master’s degree for priests and brothers has a list of very specific courses that we must take.



Fraternally,

Br.Jr, OSF 🙂
Br JR,
I’m also reading along. Thank you for teaching us these things. This is amazing in a public forum. I’m very grateful for all you’ve done in helping me to understand the SFO and Franciscanism better.
 
The things you already explained, mostly.

One last thing and I think this might be pushing the topic boundary but, so, our erstwhile lumberjack has now become a FSSP priest. Secular. This will sound odd but does he have to stop being a lumberjack? Can he he do that and hear confessions and baptise and marry people? Can he confect the Eucharist … somewhere not in a Church?

(One day I should just sit here and read through the whole CoCL.)
Many secular priests hold rather interesting jobs. Lumberjack is not a common one. 😉 Many are teachers, administrators, social workers, counselors, and other white collar jobs. If the man belongs to the FSSP, it would be up to the FSSP superior to decide if he can continue to chop wood and work in a parish on weekends. That’s the kind of thing that you would see more among religious, than secular priests.

There are many priests who are religious who help at a parish on weekends, but do no sacramental work during the week. For example, many monks are priests. They often help run local parishes, because of the shortage. But they live the monastic life when they’re not at the parish or they go to the parish on weekends and farm in the monastery during the week.

Franciscans also do things like this. For example, there are the friars at EWTN. Much of their work during the week has little to do with sacraments and a lot to do with communications, counseling, lecturing and manual labor. You don’t have to be a priest to do any of this; but the ministry of that community is communications.

The primary responsibility of the secular priest who is a diocesan is to serve his bishop. Obviously, this means helping the bishop shepherd his flock. That’s usually parish work. The Church often frowns upon secular priests having full-time apostolate such as pro-life work, youth ministry, teaching, catechesis, running a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter. They can certainly do this kind of work, but rarely as a permanent assignment. The diocese is responsible for all of the diocesan parishes. Therefore, it’s priests can’t be spread so thin to allow 10 of them to go out and work in some other apostolate full time indefinitely.

People like Father Peyton did this and Father Flanagan who founded Boys Town. These guys lived when there was a surplus of parish priests and Catholics were concentrated in the cities, not scattered all over suburbia.

Today, specialized apostolates are run by religious communities founded to do that kind of work. You’re more likely to find Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits teaching at universities, rather than diocesan priests or to find Augustinians and Franciscans doing pro-life work. These communities do not have an obligation to staff parishes. The bishop and his men have an obligation to keep parishes running.

Along with the shortage of diocesan priests, another reason that parishes are closing is because religious communities have abandoned them. Religious communities were not founded to staff parishes or were founded to staff certain kinds of parishes, such as very poor, immigrant, minority, or rural. When the complexion of the parish changes, the religious leave.

In addition, some religious communities are not ordaining as many men as they did, because they are returning to their roots. When they were founded, they were brotherhoods with only a few priests, just enough to celebrate mass and hear confessions for them, not the general public. For example, the Missionaries of the Poor (MOP) are a religious congregation of brothers. They ordain 1/10 brothers. They will not ordain more, because they will then become like the Dominicans, a religious community of priests. That’s not why they were founded. The Dominicans were founded to be a religious order for priests. The MOP were not. These ordained MOP do not run parishes. They exist in many countries, but they walk the streets. When they see a poor person, they pick him up and take him home. That’s their vocation.
Br JR,
I’m also reading along. Thank you for teaching us these things. This is amazing in a public forum. I’m very grateful for all you’ve done in helping me to understand the SFO and Franciscanism better.
You’re welcome. If you understand the Franciscans, you’re now ready to tackle the Trinity. 😃

Last night, I had class with our postulants (future friars). We’re starting to learn how to pray the LOTH. Before we learn the mechanics, I was teaching them the theology behind it from the point of view of the Church and then from the point of view of Francis and Clare. Of course, I had to explain how they compliment each other, rather than conflict. Part of this was explaining why we don’t use Gregorian chant in the Divine Office.

One of the postulants looked at me and said, “I think I’d rather tackle the Trinity. It’s probably easier than this.” I was rolling on the floor. Another postulant said, “Understanding how the Franciscans fit into the Catholic Church is like trying to put together one of those puzzles with 1,000 pieces.”

I finally said, “If you want predictability and structure, join the Dominicans or the Benedictines. However, if you thrive on chaos, confusion, spontanaeity, diversity, uncertainty and absolute obedience and trust, be a Franciscan of any kind. None of the Franciscan communities has a monopoly on disorganization. That’s what makes us so cute.” :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Today, specialized apostolates are run by religious communities founded to do that kind of work. You’re more likely to find Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits teaching at universities, rather than diocesan priests or to find Augustinians and Franciscans doing pro-life work.
I had one last (no, really) question, feel free to refer to me to some place this is written down to look up for myself.

The question is: what’s the bare minimum you need to celebrate the Mass?

Let’s say (this happens sometimes, or did when I was younger) a priest and a rabbi a walked into a … no wait… okay, you and a brother go to Colorado to ski and one of our famous blizzards shuts down everything and then the avalanche comes and closes the road. For a over a week. The lodge is okay, they have their own power, food and so forth, but what do the Catholics do for Mass? The skiing priest is here! Is the problem solved? Could a Mass be licitly celebrated in the ski lodge?

I read that when Maryland was initially landed on by Catholic Europeans, the first thing they did was erect a rough wooden cross and have a Mass. Can you do that now?
 
The resemblance between him and I is uncanny. 😃 However, my habit is grey.
I had one last (no, really) question, feel free to refer to me to some place this is written down to look up for myself.

The question is: what’s the bare minimum you need to celebrate the Mass?

Let’s say (this happens sometimes, or did when I was younger) a priest and a rabbi a walked into a … no wait… okay, you and a brother go to Colorado to ski and one of our famous blizzards shuts down everything and then the avalanche comes and closes the road. For a over a week. The lodge is okay, they have their own power, food and so forth, but what do the Catholics do for Mass? The skiing priest is here! Is the problem solved? Could a Mass be licitly celebrated in the ski lodge?

I read that when Maryland was initially landed on by Catholic Europeans, the first thing they did was erect a rough wooden cross and have a Mass. Can you do that now?
The law is quite simple. Mass must be celebrated in a church, chapel or oratory. However, if there are circumstances that are out of the ordinary, the mass can be celebrated elsewhere. For example, the pope celebrates mass in stadiums and fields, because there is no church large enough to hold such a crowd.

The minimum that you need for a valid mass is a validly ordained priest. He can be Catholic or Orthodox. You need bread and wine and to say the words of consecration.

Let’s say that the scenario that you painted happens. There is nothing but the priest, bread and wine. There is no way to get the missal and lectionary. The mass would be both valid and legal (licit). This is an exceptional situation where you can’t get to a church, chapel or oratory.

This happens a lot with priests who are in jail. They’re not allowed to celebrate mass, so they sneak it in. They get some sympathetic guard to get them some bread and wine and they celebrate the mass in their cells. St. Maximilian Kolbe would save the hard bread that they provided to the inmates and one of the German guards would get him wine, just an ounce or so. St. Max would consecrate a fraction of that ounce of wine and enough bread to give communion to this fellow inmates. There is a famous Vietnamese bishop who was in jail for more than 20 years. He would consecrate a morsel of bread and a few drops of wine in his cell.

In mission countries there are often places that have no chapels or churches. The mass is celebrated on a makeshift altar under a tree or a tent.

By the way, the Orthodox priests can consecrate validly and licitly. There is no restriction placed on them. However, Catholics can only receive communion at an Orthodox mass with very special conditions. I can’t recall all of the conditions off the top of my head, because I’ve never been in that situation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
i apologize for being too sensitive… and maybe caused some arguments…

i just have a talk with my superior( a priest, the one whom i addressed as superior to whom i said i want to be a saint is our vicar, a perpetual, i call him also my superior, sorry for not stating) and this is what he told me:

"My child, i have allowed them (the professed religious) to treat you in that way because of all the 60 postulants you belong to the one who really talk to Him with a heart. You possessed a deeper understanding above your batchmates and had the greatest possibility for holiness. We humbled you, gave you trials different than others because you are in a different stage than them. You are closer to Him. They might be mean but i knew you could endure the torments. Your vocation is to love, to be a victim soul, consecrated and consumed for others. You are for Religious life but not at this time. we have found the following in you:
  • your illness might get worse
    -you are still not ready for the life we have
    -conflicts on family.
but we will welcome you if you would ever be back. I recommend you to return after 4 years. You still have mission outside the walls of His home. Love more my child.

– so then i understood everything. Thank you to all of you. You made me strong 🙂
It is especially beautiful that they gave you are in Third Order. You are still part of the community in a way. You should spend this time working on your family situation and doing your best to deal with your health. Go back in four years and this will have strengthened you in your walk with Christ. Sometimes our sufferings unite us to Him in His Passion in ways that we can only understand by having lived it.
 
It is especially beautiful that they gave you are in Third Order. You are still part of the community in a way. You should spend this time working on your family situation and doing your best to deal with your health. Go back in four years and this will have strengthened you in your walk with Christ. Sometimes our sufferings unite us to Him in His Passion in ways that we can only understand by having lived it.
thank you God bless you
 
With all due respect and kindness, I wish to suggest some things to you.

I do formation work. If I had a young man speaking the way that you write, it would send up all kinds of red flags in my mind. It sounds as if you are parroting the saints of old. This was their manner of writing. I’m not even sure that they actually spoke this way in day to day conversation. My guess, from what I’ve studied, is that they were pretty plain spoken people. Even someone like St. Francis, who was a poet, wrote very poetically, but spoke in very practical and everyday language.

For example, you said,* “He already imprinted a YES on my soul, who am i to say NO?”* Even the poetic St.Francis of Assisi or St. John of the Cross would not speak this way in daily intercourse with other Catholics. This may be found in one of their spiritual writings. In everyday exchange they would probably say something such as, “I’m willing to give whatever God asks of me.” To the trained ear of a formation director, this does not sound like the typical manner of speaking of a young man. This would concern him, because this young man has to live in a community of brothers where he has to communicate and integrate with them, not stand out by his manner of speech or external expressions of zeal.

Zeal is always good, but the religious must always fit in with his community. If the manner and language is too different from that of his brothers, integration is almost impossible. It is different when God singles out the individual as in the case of the mystics. Even they did not like it. St. Teresa of Jesus always said, “Lord, you have a way of showing up at the most inopportune moments,” when she had a mystical experience in front of all her sisters. She was embarrassed. Francis of Assisi only spoke to Brother Leo about his stigmata and commanded him not to speak about it until after he was dead. They knew that he had the stigmata and that something wonderful had happened, but Francis went about with life as usual or as usual as he could given his poor health at that time. Do you get the idea?

To be a religious, you must be simple. Simplicity means that one blends in with one’s community. When we enter religious life we must remember that it is we who are joining the community. The community is not joining us. Therefore, it is we who must adjust how we speak, work, act and do many things to fit into the daily life of the community. A religious who does not fit into the daily life of the community is destined to be very lonely. Community life is not for loneliness. On the contrary, it should be a foretaste of heaven.

My second piece of advice is be aware of how you say that you want to be a religious brother. You said, “I just want to be a religious brother.”

The “just” in that sentence is a point of contention is most religious communities today. There are all kinds of brothers. Some are choir monks, some are priests, some are lay brothers, some are apostolic brothers, some are coadjutor brothers, some are friars and so forth. Each makes his contribution to the Church. There was a period between Vatican I and Vatican II when the non ordained brothers were treated exactly as you are saying. The ordained and the laity would say to them, “You’re JUST a brother.” They took away their rights to vote in community, to pray with their community, to sit at the same table to eat with priests, to have friends among the laity, to go to school unless they were going to teach, to speak unless they were spoken to, to pray in the same chapel as priests and seminarians.

It was such a horrible segregation that the Church intervened at Vatican II and issued Perfectae Caritatis and Bl. John Paul II intervened again and issued Vita Consacrata. Both documents restored the brothers to their rightful place in the Church and the community, restored their rights and emphatically dictated to the laity and to the clergy that the brother is an essential part of the Church, not JUST a brother. Without him, the Church misses a grace that can only come through the presence of the brother and a lot of apostolic works will die without the brother. Bl. John Paul makes this very clear in Vita Consacrata.

Some brothers are scholars and some are beggars. Some are handymen and some are superiors of houses. One was even elected pope (long story for another thread). The self-deprecating, “I just want to be a brother” will send more red flags up. A more correct way would be to say “I believe that I’m called to religious life, but not to the priesthood.” Said that way, you’re making a distinction between the two callings without making one inferior to the other.

To recap, try to speak as a person you age would speak. One can be virtuous in speech and be very typical at the same time. If you want an example, study Bl. Pierre Giorgio Frassatti. The boy had a wonderful sense of humor. Before he died, instead of saying some very pious words he asked one of his friends to take a note. He started, “On Monday, take care of this. On Tues don’t forget that Mrs X needs this. On Thurs there are the kids at CCD, etc etc.” St. Francis of Asisi, as he lay dying told Br. Leo, “Write this down.” He proceeded to give his brothers one final scolding, not very pious language at all. That was his final testament.

Try to separate the vocation to religious life and the vocation to Holy Orders. See them as different, not on a ladder. They’re not. They are very different and one does not depend on the other. Yet, they need each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
thank you and im sorry…
 
thank you God bless you
You’re welcome. He has blessed many times over. I will tell you something else that someone told me a while back who was guiding a portion of my formation. She told me to take the words “I’m sorry” out of my vocabulary for a while. She said if I really needed to apologize because I had actually wronged someone then I should simply state “I apologize for…” and let it go at that. You see I went through a period of my life where everything I did was wrong to someone else that I loved very much. I eventually had to escape that situation. However, this left it’s own set of wounds. I was so used to saying “I’m sorry” to avoid conflict that in a way I was taking responsibility for issues that others may have had or things I was not expected to know. This wasn’t fair to me and I was selling myself short. Good friends, spiritual direction, counseling, and formation helped with that. I certainly don’t want to project parts of my story on to you but I see similarities so I hope that maybe you can learn from some of my experience as I have also found that learning from others’ experience is less painful than learning from my own. God bless you and good luck.
 
You’re welcome. He has blessed many times over. I will tell you something else that someone told me a while back who was guiding a portion of my formation. She told me to take the words “I’m sorry” out of my vocabulary for a while. She said if I really needed to apologize because I had actually wronged someone then I should simply state “I apologize for…” and let it go at that. You see I went through a period of my life where everything I did was wrong to someone else that I loved very much. I eventually had to escape that situation. However, this left it’s own set of wounds. I was so used to saying “I’m sorry” to avoid conflict that in a way I was taking responsibility for issues that others may have had or things I was not expected to know. This wasn’t fair to me and I was selling myself short. Good friends, spiritual direction, counseling, and formation helped with that. I certainly don’t want to project parts of my story on to you but I see similarities so I hope that maybe you can learn from some of my experience as I have also found that learning from others’ experience is less painful than learning from my own. God bless you and good luck.
and i apologize for that 🙂
 
The major superior of an order and the abbot of an abbey answer only to the Holy Father. This is called Pontifical Right, meaning that the Pontiff reserves the right to govern them to himself. If the major superior or the abbot is the problem, the Church has set up the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life who acts in the name of the Holy Father, to a limited extent.

I’ll give you three different examples.

LEGION OF CHRIST: Fr. Marcel did horrific things to these people. No bishop could intervene. The case had to be brought up to the Holy Father. It was the Holy Father who removed Fr. Marcel from office. Unfortunately, the Legionaries took too long before bringing their problem to the attention of the Holy Father. That’s not the Holy Father’s fault. That was an internal weakness.

A religious community must request the bishop’s permission to open a house in his diocese. The bishop can grant the permission or deny it. The bishop can suspend the faculties of any religious who is a confessor. The superior can override that suspension by granting faculties to the man to hear confessions in his own house.

The bishop cannot ask them to leave his diocese. That would be suppression. Bishops have no authority to suppress religious orders or secular orders either.

The bishop has more authority over you than over the religious in his diocese.

If the major superior is the problem, it must go to the Sacred Congregation in Rome. In many large dioceses there is a Vicar for Religious. This is a religious who serves as the representative between the bishop and the religious. Complaints can go to him or her and he or she then forward the to the right person.

I have never understood why people believe that bishops can solve every problem in a diocese when it concerns religious or clergy. The laws are very clear, The Councils are very clear and the constitutions of the religious community are very clear. People just have to pick them up and read them.
In this case, the issue is not abuse. The issue is dismissal. Whatever the formation director may have said to the postulant was rude and inappropriate. But the formation director did not dismiss the postulant. He does not have that authority. He only communicates the decision. the dismissal is decided by the major superior, after there is a vote within the community where the postulant lives. The major superior is not bound by that vote. It is only consultative. If he goes with it, it’s because something caused him concern.
We must also remember, no one has the right to belong to a religious community except those who have made perpetual vows. Christ calls to the religious life through the major superior. Sometimes, we may believe that he’s calling us to a particular community only to be dismissed. Eventually, we are admitted to a second or third community, because that’s where Christ wanted us. We have great saints who traveled through several communities before finding their place.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I also think that something must be the case. They can’t all be mean! I think you are being a little hard on the laity though. Most times we don’t even think about what goes on in the religious life, and if we do, I’d say we are not especially motivated to read about it. Why? Because when it comes down to our day to day activities, it just doesn’t affect us! When I hear of a problem, who do I think of? The one with the most authority around me that I know, my Bishop! Abbot, superior, e.t.c…I don’t even understand the difference.
I don’t think I will pick anything like that and read, but at least, I have enough information from you to know that I should shut up about the religious, cos I don’t know how it works with them. Thanks.
 
😊
Many secular priests hold rather interesting jobs. Lumberjack is not a common one. 😉 Many are teachers, administrators, social workers, counselors, and other white collar jobs. If the man belongs to the FSSP, it would be up to the FSSP superior to decide if he can continue to chop wood and work in a parish on weekends. That’s the kind of thing that you would see more among religious, than secular priests.

There are many priests who are religious who help at a parish on weekends, but do no sacramental work during the week. For example, many monks are priests. They often help run local parishes, because of the shortage. But they live the monastic life when they’re not at the parish or they go to the parish on weekends and farm in the monastery during the week.

Franciscans also do things like this. For example, there are the friars at EWTN. Much of their work during the week has little to do with sacraments and a lot to do with communications, counseling, lecturing and manual labor. You don’t have to be a priest to do any of this; but the ministry of that community is communications.

The primary responsibility of the secular priest who is a diocesan is to serve his bishop. Obviously, this means helping the bishop shepherd his flock. That’s usually parish work. The Church often frowns upon secular priests having full-time apostolate such as pro-life work, youth ministry, teaching, catechesis, running a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter. They can certainly do this kind of work, but rarely as a permanent assignment. The diocese is responsible for all of the diocesan parishes. Therefore, it’s priests can’t be spread so thin to allow 10 of them to go out and work in some other apostolate full time indefinitely.

People like Father Peyton did this and Father Flanagan who founded Boys Town. These guys lived when there was a surplus of parish priests and Catholics were concentrated in the cities, not scattered all over suburbia.

Today, specialized apostolates are run by religious communities founded to do that kind of work. You’re more likely to find Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits teaching at universities, rather than diocesan priests or to find Augustinians and Franciscans doing pro-life work. These communities do not have an obligation to staff parishes. The bishop and his men have an obligation to keep parishes running.

Along with the shortage of diocesan priests, another reason that parishes are closing is because religious communities have abandoned them. Religious communities were not founded to staff parishes or were founded to staff certain kinds of parishes, such as very poor, immigrant, minority, or rural. When the complexion of the parish changes, the religious leave.

In addition, some religious communities are not ordaining as many men as they did, because they are returning to their roots. When they were founded, they were brotherhoods with only a few priests, just enough to celebrate mass and hear confessions for them, not the general public. For example, the Missionaries of the Poor (MOP) are a religious congregation of brothers. They ordain 1/10 brothers. They will not ordain more, because they will then become like the Dominicans, a religious community of priests. That’s not why they were founded. The Dominicans were founded to be a religious order for priests. The MOP were not. These ordained MOP do not run parishes. They exist in many countries, but they walk the streets. When they see a poor person, they pick him up and take him home. That’s their vocation.

You’re welcome. If you understand the Franciscans, you’re now ready to tackle the Trinity. 😃

Last night, I had class with our postulants (future friars). We’re starting to learn how to pray the LOTH. Before we learn the mechanics, I was teaching them the theology behind it from the point of view of the Church and then from the point of view of Francis and Clare. Of course, I had to explain how they compliment each other, rather than conflict. Part of this was explaining why we don’t use Gregorian chant in the Divine Office.

One of the postulants looked at me and said, “I think I’d rather tackle the Trinity. It’s probably easier than this.” I was rolling on the floor. Another postulant said, “Understanding how the Franciscans fit into the Catholic Church is like trying to put together one of those puzzles with 1,000 pieces.”

I finally said, “If you want predictability and structure, join the Dominicans or the Benedictines. However, if you thrive on chaos, confusion, spontanaeity, diversity, uncertainty and absolute obedience and trust, be a Franciscan of any kind. None of the Franciscan communities has a monopoly on disorganization. That’s what makes us so cute.” :yup:
Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Seriously, that is what I love about the Franciscans. :rotfl:
Yes, thank you for enlightening us, and since I don’t know anything, I hope there’ll be less abbreviations and acronyms and more full words so that I can follow.😊
 
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