Vocation problem

[TiggerS]

Maybe you missed it, but we were talking about the fact that there are wonderful things that that laity can contribute to the Church and that Canon Law makes provisions for such contributions through associations, secular institutes and societies of apostolic life. The problem that many lay people have is that they can’t seem to agree on how to live the Gospel or how to approach a particular need in the wider Church or in their local community.

All too often, the people who are doing the greater amount of communicating are not focusing on the need and the possibilities for the laity, but on details that in the end, turn out to be distractions.

On the other hand, there are many lay people who do wonderful things for the Church, but they are out there either alone or loosely connected to others in some kind of team that needs more cohesiveness.

I’ve seen people who are terrific youth ministers, religious educators, pro-life workers, Catholic educators and retreat ministers. When the activity is done, they each go their way. What they seem to need is a sense of community, more than a few hours of apostolic work and then home. Everyone needs to belong to some kind of community.

These people would be significantly strengthened if besides doing CCD on Sunday mornings (an example) they also had other activities that included their families, prayer time, recreation, on-going formation and that these things happened consistently rather than sporadically. Very few parish communities arrange for these to be ongoing relationships. The focus is placed more on doing than on being. I believe that many lay people are looking for that sense of community.

In the old days, most Catholics lived in very closed neighborhoods, almost Catholic ghettos. They not only went to Church together, but they worked in the same factories, baby-sat for each other, sat on the stoop in the summer and just talked, watched the kids play on the street in front of their homes or the dads would go bowling on Thursdays, etc.

As the lay Catholic is dispersed through suburbia, this sense of community is lost. Lay participation in Church life is often reduced to volunteering a few hours per month and Sunday mass. People are left feeling hungry for more.

The younger generation does not realize what it’s hungry for, because it did not live in those days of the “Catholic ghetto”. What he’s really hungering for is that Catholic community where people not only engage in a certain apostolic activity, but also feel Catholic.

When we look at groups like Opus Dei, which has many lay people or SOLT with has mission teams of priests, brothers, sisters and laymen or some of the secular institutes, we see the difference between those people and the majority of the people in the pews on Sunday.

It’s not a matter of the laity not having a place in the Church or not having dignity. It’s a matter of needing to get organized in ways that will give the lay person a sense of being Catholic, contributing to the ministry of the Church and including their families, not just one member of the family who steps out to do volunteer work at some Catholic apostolate.

There is a need for these forms of associations, because of the decline of the old Catholic neighborhoods where people spontaneously formed communities that integrated the entire family.

Another association that comes to mind is Schoenstatt (sp?). They have many things going on that include the entire family in the life of the Church and they fill an important part in the life of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Entirely valid, Brother, as your own personal opinions and concepts. view of Catholic laity in parish and Church life and the way we and it should be going, the direction it should take.
Our parish this year is embarking on a number of diocesan programs that will be formation programs for parishioners - and this is the way that our parish feels that it should be going according to the concepts and opinions, views, of our parish leadership. These programs do include steps, it is hoped, towards reinforcing a real sense of community both in the parish and towards outreaching beyond the parish. It will be a trial and review process to see what is working and what may not be working. It’s probably going to have quite a few problems and concerns as things get underway, much as the changes to religious life post V2 may have caused problems and concerns. We can either look on all this with a negative and defeatist, pessimistic, attitude, or we can look on it all as a challenge to achieve diocesan and parish goals with a readiness to ‘change gears’ if necessary. We intend with God’s Grace to “put our hand to the plough” (Luke 9) and not look back, but keep going forward in whatever direction seems necessary.

 

[iloveangels]

Maybe you missed it, but we were talking about the fact that there are wonderful things that that laity can contribute to the Church and that Canon Law makes provisions for such contributions through associations, secular institutes and societies of apostolic life. The problem that many lay people have is that they can’t seem to agree on how to live the Gospel or how to approach a particular need in the wider Church or in their local community.

All too often, the people who are doing the greater amount of communicating are not focusing on the need and the possibilities for the laity, but on details that in the end, turn out to be distractions.

On the other hand, there are many lay people who do wonderful things for the Church, but they are out there either alone or loosely connected to others in some kind of team that needs more cohesiveness. …

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

The problem is that even though laypeople are quite competent at running things in general, when they show up at the local parish, they expect someone to do everything for them. I mean even just like setting up a bible study or a rosary group or selling flowers to support the poor or whatever. They feel have to do it under the auspices of someone else or something else or it can’t get done. And so it doesn’t get done. Laypeople don’t cooperate to get these things done; they generally feel that they can’t follow the lead of other laypeople.

Outside of the parish, they are often sort of adrift when it comes to apostolates. If they don’t get hired by a Catholic bookstore, etc, they don’t feel they are doing an apostolate. BTW, laypeople for some reason don’t usually use the word “apostolate” since they tend to use the trendy word “ministry” which kind of tells you how they think that works. If you don’t have a “ministry” or so it goes, then you are not “active in your parish,” or so they say. The opportunities are very limited according to the conventional idea of “ministries.” Not much imagination if you ask me.

Other things they might do get treated as though they are private initiatives of their own, neither “apostolates,” nor ministry. They’re just being “nice” or something like that to other laypeople. It’s really odd. The whole thing is odd.

 

[joanofarc2008]

The problem is that even though laypeople are quite competent at running things in general, when they show up at the local parish, they expect someone to do everything for them. I mean even just like setting up a bible study or a rosary group or selling roses to support the poor or whatever. They feel have to do it under the auspices of someone else or something else or it can’t get done. And so it doesn’t get done. Laypeople don’t cooperate to get these things done; they generally feel that they can’t follow the lead of other laypeople.

.

I think I understand what you are getting at but whenever the laity sets up something at a parish - they are doing it under the auspices of someone or something - the Pastor. This is an important thing to remember. So yes sometimes things can take time or it can be frustrating but this is to insure that it is done right and done in a nature that reflects the Holy Spirit as well as the teachings and policies of the Magisterium. Just my two cents.

 

[iloveangels]

I think I understand what you are getting at but whenever the laity sets up something at a parish - they are doing it under the auspices of someone or something - the Pastor. This is an important thing to remember. So yes sometimes things can take time or it can be frustrating but this is to insure that it is done right and done in a nature that reflects the Holy Spirit as well as the teachings and policies of the Magisterium. Just my two cents.

I really don’t understand why groups of laypeople can’t say a rosary together in the park or someplace like that regularly. Or teach their children how to do so in home-organized childrens’ retreats that join several families for a day. Or collect food for the animals in the winter at the animal shelter, where they go without if no one donates. Or take to the streets to sell flowers to support the poor and make a faithful community of households around that. Or run canned food drives for the food bank, ditto. I cannot see what could possibly be “not in union with the magisterium” about any of these things.

And if those things are too open-ended for some people, and maybe they are for some, then there’s always Right to Life and other groups that can help. A group of laypeople can do any or several of these things and more–really quite normal and good things–and then form a shared prayer life and enjoy community support for these things. This would help them to live out their faith.

 

[TiggerS]

I really don’t understand why laypeople can’t say a rosary together in the park regularly. Or teach their children how to do so in home-organized childrens’ retreats. Or collect food for the animals in the winter at the animal shelter, where they go without if no one donates. Or take to the streets to sell flowers to support the poor and make a faithful community of households around that. Or run canned food drives for the food bank, ditto. I cannot see what could possibly be “not in union with the magisterium” about any of these things.

And if those things are too open-ended for some people, and maybe they are for some, then there’s always Right to Life and other groups that can help. Seriously.

Perhaps some are involved in such ventures in one form or another but they are not well publicized or spoken about. You have some good ideas there! Some great ventures and not too hard to undertake and not only for laypeople.
When things take place within a parish as a parish venture, however, it needs to be under the auspices of the parish priest. Our parish priests need to know what is happening in their own parishes.

 

[iloveangels]

I think I understand what you are getting at but whenever the laity sets up something at a parish - they are doing it under the auspices of someone or something - the Pastor. This is an important thing to remember. So yes sometimes things can take time or it can be frustrating but this is to insure that it is done right and done in a nature that reflects the Holy Spirit as well as the teachings and policies of the Magisterium. Just my two cents.

Yes, but what usually happens is they end up in a “ministry,” not an apostolate or a richer more Catholic way of doing what they normally do in their day-to-day lives. But if they say they’re “active in their parish,” everyone knows what they’re talking about…

 

[iloveangels]

Perhaps some are involved in such ventures in one form or another but they are not well publicized or spoken about. You have some good ideas there! Some great ventures and not too hard to undertake and not only for laypeople.
When things take place within a parish as a parish venture, however, it needs to be under the auspices of the parish priest. Our parish priests need to know what is happening in their own parishes.

It is true that the parish priest needs to know, but he doesn’t need to personally lead every single thing that happens.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I really don’t understand why groups of laypeople can’t say a rosary together in the park or someplace like that regularly. Or teach their children how to do so in home-organized childrens’ retreats that join several families for a day. Or collect food for the animals in the winter at the animal shelter, where they go without if no one donates. Or take to the streets to sell flowers to support the poor and make a faithful community of households around that. Or run canned food drives for the food bank, ditto. I cannot see what could possibly be “not in union with the magisterium” about any of these things.

And if those things are too open-ended for some people, and maybe they are for some, then there’s always Right to Life and other groups that can help. A group of laypeople can do any or several of these things and more–really quite normal and good things–and then form a shared prayer life and enjoy community support for these things. This would help them to live out their faith.

They can - when they start calling it a ministry or putting the parish name on it or using parish resources to advertise it’s time or location then the pastor is personally responsible to the Bishop for anything that may go on there. So for instance if a 17 year old goes to say the Rosary and starts a relationship with a 19 year old and the parents have an issue and someone has not had the Protecting God’s Children Class - it is going to fall under the auspices of the parish priest. It can happen very innocently but it is a slippery slope and that is why there are rules. Now if it is an Apostolate outside of the parish complete than it is an Apostolate and follows separate Canons. There is more leeway but there are still rules as it may in some circumstances come under the Bishop for instance those Apostolates that use “Catholic” in their name.

 

[joanofarc2008]

It is true that the parish priest needs to know, but he doesn’t need to personally lead every single thing that happens.

Very true and well put assuming that the person running the ministry has earned his trust.

 

[iloveangels]

They can - when they start calling it a ministry or putting the parish name on it or using parish resources to advertise it’s time or location then the pastor is personally responsible to the Bishop for anything that may go on there. So for instance if a 17 year old goes to say the Rosary and starts a relationship with a 19 year old and the parents have an issue and someone has not had the Protecting God’s Children Class - it is going to fall under the auspices of the parish priest. It can happen very innocently but it is a slippery slope and that is why there are rules. Now if it is an Apostolate outside of the parish complete than it is an Apostolate and follows separate Canons. There is more leeway but there are still rules as it may in some circumstances come under the Bishop for instance those Apostolates that use “Catholic” in their name.

Laypeople do all kinds of important things in their vocations–get married, have children, take care of their children, interact with people at work, pay their bills, vote in elections, all these things. I mean for a Catholic, I hope that most of these things aren’t done in a pagan fashion, right? Yet, you don’t expect the parish priest to be hovering over you when you do all these things. Why should he hover over you when you say a rosary with someone, donate to the poor, or take kibble to the animal shelter so the homeless dogs don’t starve?

Maybe the idea that needs to be challenged is this: People get holy by doing “churchy” things in the church building proper, and that’s the only way to get holy. By doing “ministries.”

Do you think that’s true?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Laypeople do all kinds of important things in their vocations–get married, have children, take care of their children, interact with people at work, pay their bills, vote in elections, all these things. I mean for a Catholic, I hope that most of these things aren’t done in a pagan fashion, right? Yet, you don’t expect the parish priest to be hovering over you when you do all these things. Why should he hover over you when you say a rosary with someone, donate to the poor, or take kibble to the animal shelter so the homeless dogs don’t starve?

I didn’t say that. The difference is when one does these things in an organized manner so that it is representative of a parish or a diocese or the Church in general. Raising children and taking kibble to the animal shelter is also something atheists do everyday.

 

[iloveangels]

I didn’t say that. The difference is when one does these things in an organized manner so that it is representative of a parish or a diocese or the Church in general. Raising children and taking kibble to the animal shelter is also something atheists do everyday.

Not if they do it with a Christian attitude and commitment and in Christian community with each other. Christians are still Christians when they leave the church building.

I think you’ve hit on an important point here too. Maybe I’m not talking about, for instance, St. Mary’s winter dog-feeding ministry or something like that; rather, I’m talking about laypeople banding together-networking actually-to enrich their inner lives by doing good and seeking practical community and support with each other and each other’s families over work and normal everyday prayer, etc.

 

[TiggerS]

Anything done as a parish venture in our parish is certain run past our parish priest through the parish council and regular reports go back to him (again through the parish council) on progress etc. Such ventures are rarely run by the parish priest.

It is important, I think, to get across to lay people that they are not committed to The Gospel only within the parish but all day and every day. This is our lay vocation to take The Gospel with us wherever we go and as disciples of Jesus, whether we are in our family, with fellow Catholics or mixing with non Catholics or athiests etc. If we happen to be about what is often an athiestic type good work, then we need to be about it as followers of Jesus, as Catholics.
For too long lay people have had the impression that if one attends Sunday Mass, Holy Communion, and regular Confession or in accord with Church Precepts, then one is a practising Catholic. This mentality has persevered and has become the criteria for “practising Catholic” and I dont think that laity are the cause. No mention of a commitment at all times to The Gospel and what this may involve other than rather faltering steps in that direction in our day. Happily these faltering steps are becoming stronger. Since laity have been conditioned very often to the former thinking of Sunday Mass. Holy Communion and Confession, it is going to take time and commitment, effort, to overcome that mindset and develop one of a total and daily commitment to The Gospel as lay people and in accord with our vocation as laity. We need to see it as a very real vocation and call from God and how we are to determine it in the day to day.

We are still struggling with things, much as religious struggled with the changes to their vocation which came about as a result of Vatican 2.

 

[iloveangels]

Anything done as a parish venture in our parish is certain run past our parish priest through the parish council and regular reports go back to him (again through the parish council) on progress etc. Such ventures are rarely run by the parish priest.

It is important, I think, to get across to lay people that they are not committed to The Gospel only within the parish but all day and every day. This is our lay vocation to take The Gospel with us wherever we go and as disciples of Jesus, whether we are in our family, with fellow Catholics or mixing with non Catholics or athiests etc. If we happen to be about what is often an athiestic type good work, then we need to be about it as followers of Jesus, as Catholics.
For too long lay people have had the impression that if one attends Sunday Mass, Holy Communion, and regular Confession or in accord with Church Precepts, then one is a practising Catholic. This mentality has persevered and has become the criteria for “practising Catholic” and I dont think that laity are the cause. No mention of a commitment at all times to The Gospel and what this may involve other than rather faltering steps in that direction in our day. Happily these faltering steps are becoming stronger. Since laity have been conditioned very often to the former thinking of Sunday Mass. Holy Communion and Confession, it is going to take time and commitment, effort, to overcome that mindset and develop one of a total and daily commitment to The Gospel as lay people and in accord with our vocation as laity. We need to see it as a very real vocation and call from God and how we are to determine it in the day to day.

We are still struggling with things, much as religious struggled with the changes to their vocation which came about as a result of Vatican 2.

I do think that we Catholics struggle with the idea of being Catholic 24-7, yes. And have no idea how to do that, other than just being “nice” and following along passively. This is a great shame and many people suffer for the lack of community and the lack of support to their life of faith.

The laity do have a vocation, just as surely as priests do, yes. It’s different, that’s all, and needs to be developed better maybe. Br JR is right about what he says happened when the old neighborhoods broke up. People don’t have the support now and the program he describes sounds like a great thing. Being Catholic is more than showing up once a week for 45 minutes in late 20th century style, yes.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Not if they do it with a Christian attitude and commitment and in Christian community with each other. Christians are still Christians when they leave the church building.

I think you’ve hit on an important point here too. Maybe I’m not talking about, for instance, St. Mary’s winter dog-feeding ministry or something like that; rather, I’m talking about laypeople banding together-networking actually-to enrich their inner lives by doing good and seeking practical community and support with each other and each other’s families over work and normal everyday prayer, etc.

This is exactly the difference I am talking about. However I think we just need to double check ourselves when we start making things public like putting videos on YouTube, etc then we need to look at how we are representing the Church.

 

[JReducation]

The majority of Catholics aren’t like people here on CAF being “formed” by a small but dedicated group of “Traditional Catholics” to call the Bishop and complain at the slightest drop of a word in the Liturgy.

You make a very valid point here. I have to remember this too.

Most Catholics are just looking for God, for the Presence of the Holy Spirit in the world, for a Priest who helps us find that.

I believe this.

My dearest Brother, we don’t need you to leave the Parishes. We need you in the Parishes, alongside the secular priests, to bring US into a religious life by living your religious life among us, in part. Lay people get to be religious people, not Liturgical automatons. Who’s going to model that for us, or lead us to it, when all we have left are priests who are removing themselves even more from us?

The creates a tension, not as in stress, but as in two forces pulling in different directions. While you have the parish, which is the center of Church life in any diocese, you also have the charism of the religious communities, which does not always match with the parishes.

You will still find religious in parishes, but you will find them more often in poor parishes: rural, inner city, immigrant, minority parishes and parishes that can’t afford more than one priest, because religious usually come in twos and threes for the price of one. Then, you also have those religious that have to leave the parishes, because the American Catholic is all over suburbia, which is predominantly middle class. There was a time when Catholics in the USA were urban poor and they lived in ethnic groups of Italians, Poles, Irish and Germans, etc. These were working class families who often did not speak the language. Many were rural families. You’ll find many religious in the Central Plains where the German Catholics settled.

As those parishes became more prosperous, there is no longer the need for a religious community that serves those in need. or that lives only among the poor or the working class. Now, with the rate of immigrants entering the country, the number of homeless people increasing and the rate of people involved in abortion, drugs and promiscuity, there is a greater need for religious in those areas than in parishes. Diocesan priests have a duty to their bishops. They have to keep the diocese’s parishes running. You can’t pull them out and place them with these populations. Your best bet are the religious, because they are not part of a diocese.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

i entered a religious order when i was sixteen and this is my story

i am not so poor but not so rich. I could say i belong to a family who has some wealth. I graduated at high school at 16 with high grades, belong to the top students and received scholarship for college with 100% discount and to be sent money every month. I had many opportunities to grasp, has sure job and many more.

though not to what i wanted, i heard my Jesus calls me to enter that order. So i entered at 16. my parents dont want it. I turned down all the opportunities, escaped my parents and entered the order. My parents abandoned me, never had visits and no one supported me financially and physically.

inside i was always humiliated, laughed at, given the worst chores, obedience, deprived of many things and always mistreated. I offered everything to Him. and persevered. After i finished my postulancy, our superior said " we will send you home."

i didnt understand, instead i became a third order, i was so humiliated. i felt so down. every people i ask for help laugh at me and tell me im a fool for turning down every thing just to receive mistreatments and be abandoned.

now i feel confused in my vocation.

Jesus told me my vocation is to love and be a victim but i could no longer understand His will and could no longer hold on in these pains.

now im already seventeen and was a third order member of that order who is often judged as someone who is so bad to deserve to be sent home

please help me. i need prayers the most

I am very mindful, FraLeones, of your opening post to this thread - as above. Thank you very much for the beautiful witness to humility you gave in a few of your posts. You are in my daily prayers, please keep us in yours. May The Lord clarify for you that path along which He Desires to draw you in life, which has already begun for you. Where it will take you, we cannot know at this point.
Your thread has gone off your opening subject and my apologies for this. I think sometimes The Holy Spirit can lead us along a way that we were not at all one bit prepared for initially.

God bless and keep you…Tigger

 

[iloveangels]

This is exactly the difference I am talking about. However I think we just need to double check ourselves when we start making things public like putting videos on YouTube, etc then we need to look at how we are representing the Church.

I certainly think we shouldn’t be on youtube declaring new doctrines, if that’s what you mean. But not everything effective necessarily has to have a sign that says ST MARY’S CATHOLIC CHURCH or whatever on it. Maybe it could be called something else and be much more oriented toward living the Catholic life day-to-day with faithful company among a few families, which is more what I’m thinking of. It’s about living the faith, not trumpeting things and certainly not replacing anything officially employed by the diocese, etc.

I’m still talking about vocations, just not vocations to religious life, so I’ll stop here because this thread is really about vocations to the religious life. Sorry about the detour, but this business about the laity is important. We can’t expect to have religious present all the time and everywhere just to baby us along in parish life. They are needed elsewhere as their charism directs them and they must go where they need to be.

For instance, I really like Fr. Groeschel’s group in New York. I think they’re wonderful. I drove all the way to Philadelphia a few years ago to hear Fr. Groeschel speak for one hour. Yet, they belong in New York. They don’t need to be here. They couldn’t be who they are here. They bring so much to the Church and I don’t personally need to be there, physically on the receiving end, to have that.

 

[TiggerS]

I do think that we Catholics struggle with the idea of being Catholic 24-7, yes. And have no idea how to do that, other than just being “nice” and following along passively. This is a great shame and many people suffer for the lack of community and the lack of support to their life of faith.

The laity do have a vocation, just as surely as priests do, yes. It’s different, that’s all, and needs to be developed better maybe. Br JR is right about what he says happened when the old neighborhoods broke up. People don’t have the support now and the program he describes sounds like a great thing. Being Catholic is more than showing up once a week for 45 minutes in late 20th century style, yes.

My experience pre V2 in Catholic circles was that it was something of shameful to mix with non Catholics. Yes, we said the Rosary every night as a family and yes, even visitors had to kneel down with us - non exempted. Yes, we had conversions to Catholicism because of us. Yes, we had professionals, lawyers, economists, professors in our family - and more. There were positives but there were also negatives points about Catholic life pre V2.

We cannot return to what was, nor should we even. This is indeed to put our hand to the plough and look back. We need to assess where we are now and what our goals are in accord with some beautiful documents out of Rome and how we are to achieve those goals. Perhaps small goals towards a bigger goal or goals. And I think it has to be a trial and review process and with prayerful sensitivity to The Holy Spirit - and we have to make a start somewhere or other even if the subsequent path is not that which we had been anticipating. “My Ways are not your ways” (Isaiah 55) “And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse?” (Ezechiel 18)

 

[iloveangels]

My experience pre V2 in Catholic circles was that it was something of shameful to mix with non Catholics. Yes, we said the Rosary every night as a family and yes, even visitors had to kneel down with us - non exempted. Yes, we had conversions to Catholicism because of us. Yes, we had professionals, lawyers, economists, professors in our family - and more. There were positives but there were also negatives points about Catholic life pre V2.

We cannot return to what was, nor should we even. This is indeed to put our hand to the plough and look back. We need to assess where we are now and what our goals are in accord with some beautiful documents out of Rome and how we are to achieve those goals. Perhaps small goals towards a bigger goal or goals. And I think it has to be a trial and review process and with prayerful sensitivity to The Holy Spirit - and we have to make a start somewhere or other even if the subsequent path is not that which we had been anticipating. “My Ways are not your ways” (Isaiah 55) “And the children of Israel say: The way of the Lord is not right. Are not my ways right, O house of Israel, and are not rather your ways perverse?” (Ezechiel 18)

I’m not saying we should have a wholesale return to the past. Absolutely not!
I am saying that we threw the baby out with the bathwater and became so institutionalized that most Catholics believe they are either doing “holy” things or “non-holy” things and there is a very firm line between the two. We go to church, we step over the line into the “holy” territory; we come out and change diapers or prepare a meal, we step back into “non-holy” territory and we are on our own. For instance, “active in your parish” means stepping over the line into “holy” territory to perform a “ministry” which is in “holy” territory. Coming home afterwards is leaving “holy” territory and entering “non-holy” territory, just as surely as if we went through customs.

So…saying a rosary with a group of friends who support us day-to-day while we support them, for the purpose of living a Catholic life, is where on that map?

BTW, this is where some of the misconceptions about religious come from too, I think. We think that they are always in this “holy” territory that we’ve set up in the 20th century. I seriously don’t know how we reconcile the fact that they take a bath once in a while.