Vocations & Girl-Altar Boys

[Jared123]

There is no evicence for one or the other side. True, there are some conservative dioceses who do not allow female altar servers and have many vocations, but nobody can link satisfactorily both things together, this is a matter of opinion, especially in the light that many other parishes that do allow altar servers have also a “full house”. All the articles linked in this topic here are voicing an opinion.

But I ask myself: Would John Paul II. have allowed something that would hurt vocations in this degree as many here do suggest? He was not exactly addle-brained…

Maybe I should dedicate my licentiate-paper to this question, but actually I wanted to write it in church history

There is no evidence for one or the other side? The only diocese in the United States that doesn’t allow altar girls has the largest number of vocations (refer to post # 108 and read the article). That is an objective fact. Obviously there are other reasons for this, but altar girls do play a significant part.
Did you ever read the articles listed on post #43, 60, 108. Each article contained facts to support my argument.
The Magesterium allowed for altar girls only if there was an extra-ordinary need (much like EMHC’s), they never expected them to be a replacement for boys. Unfortuantly the United States and other countries took this and ran with it. Dioceses made it standard practice to have altar girls and now if any Bishop or Pastor told his parish that girls would only be used if no boys were avialable were get bashed to no end.

 

[Cran]

No, they offer no facts. They offer an interpretation of facts, a personal opinion, as you do in your postings. Nobody knows if the seminary in this particular diocesis would be exactly as full as it is now if there were female servers, if everything else would be just as it is.

 

[Jared123]

In my opinion Alter girls hurt the priesthood, and I am surprised that there are more and more of them.

I believe that being an alter boy it helps the young men go on in living in servitude for the Lord with the Deacons and the Priests as examples.

What does this show in girls? Yes you can you help as an alter girl but that is far as you can go? It can start they’re questioning of “why can’t I do that”… to the extent that they question it and do not like the answer they here in this liberated world where young girls are taught that they could become anything they want to.

But they can’t. Even I know that…

Great post, and you are surprised that more and more altar girls are being used??? Hmmmm I wonder why, probably boys often times will look at this as a girls job and there is no way they are going to do it. I know Pius X, you serve with girls and have no problem with it, to which I would say you are the exception, not the rule and I commend you for that.

 

[Jared123]

No, they offer no facts. They offer an interpretation of facts, a personal opinion, as you do in your postings. Nobody knows if the seminary in this particular diocesis would be exactly as full as it is now if there were female servers, if everything else would be just as it is.

Read article on Post #108. This contains statistical facts that place Lincoln, Nebraska with the highest number of vocations in the U.S. That is a fact, not an opinion. We also don’t allow altar girls, that too is a fact, not an opinion. Our vocations are increasing, that is a fact, not an opnion. Can one factually draw a conclusion that having only altar boys increases vocation, yes. That is a fact, not an opinion.

 

[Jared123]

I have always thought that is a wonderful way to begin learning humility and discerning your place in God’s plan. As an orthodox feminist Roman Catholic, this is something I have had to accept, and I have found strength in my role in the Church.

I thank God for Vatican II. It wasn’t all that long ago that a woman was not to be allowed on the sanctuary. Now, after being properly catechized and mandated, we can be Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. And to think we couldn’t even touch our Lord with our bare hands at one time!

God is truly merciful!

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion were never ment to be used at every mass. If so why call them (Extra-Ordinary)? Why not call them Ministers of Holy Communion. This is another case of Vatican allowing something that has been totally abused within U.S. dioceses.

 

[Jared123]

I take this as evidence that you have your mind made up and are fishing for opportunities to proselytize your viewpoint. It is classic baiting technique not unlike what a fundamentalist will do to try to “prove” someone wrong and create a convert. It would well behoove you to learn how to engage more with persons than mere arguments. That is the point at which both parties will likely learn and grow from interaction with each other than though the methods which you here insistently employ.

I take it you don’t have any evidence to back up your argument that altar girls help/don’t hurt vocations?

 

[Jared123]

You claim that altar boys only has a direct effect on priestly vocations,t he burden of proof falls on you. I am telling you from personal experience that as a high school teenager who is considering the priesthood, who is also an altar server, that serving with girls has no effect either way. If you are not mature enough to get over the “girls do it so I will not,” thing, and refuse to serve, are you really mature enough to serve mass anyway?

The burden of proof falls on me??? The diocese I live in is the only diocese in the nation that will not allow altar girls and we also lead the nation in vocations. That is pretty strong evidence. You live in the Scranton, PA. diocese? If so, your diocese ranks 96th out 176 in vocations? I would say the burden of proof falls on you.
I don’t serve as an altar boy, but rather as an Acolyte. We don’t allow EMHC’s in this diocese unless there actually is an Extra-Ordinary need such as a women going into a hospital ward administering to other women. This is how EMHC’s were ment to be used.
This is another reason why we have so many vocations, read article on post #43.
I do commend you Pius X for serving mass and considering the preisthood and I am not being sarcastic about that.

 

[Cran]

Read article on Post #108. This contains statistical facts that place Lincoln, Nebraska with the highest number of vocations in the U.S. That is a fact, not an opinion. We also don’t allow altar girls, that too is a fact, not an opinion. Our vocations are increasing, that is a fact, not an opnion. Can one factually draw a conclusion that having only altar boys increases vocation, yes. That is a fact, not an opinion.

I do not doubt that Lincoln has the most vcations. But this CANNOT satisfactorily linked to one factor, like girls serving, alone.
For real arguments in this point, there should be an in-depth study:

• Interviews with an ampunt of seminarians that is big enough to represent the average, with questioning to their vocation, their reason, their experience with altar girls, serving at mass,their general attitude towards traditionalism in seminaries that are considered traditional and non-traditional alike
• Interviews with current young male servers and non-servers why they serve, why they don’t serve, how they feel towards girls
• A comparison of vocations in different dioceses (for example, the archdiocesis of Hamburg, Germany has MANY vocations and female servers, too, and a neighbouring parish send threee young men to seminary in the course of 1,5 years and has female servers…)

Until then, we do not know if female servers and serving at mass in general are indeed such an important factor to declining vocations and the lack of them is the factor that leads to success in other dioceses like Lincoln - it is justs a personal speculation, whichever stand you take.

 

[chicago]

I take it you don’t have any evidence to back up your argument that altar girls help/don’t hurt vocations?

I take it that you are interpolating a conclusion into my argumentation which I have not made, because you are fighting a strawman.

 

[chicago]

I don’t serve as an altar boy, but rather as an Acolyte. We don’t allow EMHC’s in this diocese unless there actually is an Extra-Ordinary need such as a women going into a hospital ward administering to other women. This is how EMHC’s were ment to be used.

It might be argued, also, that such is not just in regard to women, but males too. ALL such “ministries” which are not being accomplished by “clerics” (including that of “altar boy”) are inherantly “extraordinary”, in thise perspective. The installation of men into the minor orders to better fullfill these roles (while possibly a good thing) is actually an expansion of the minor orders rather than the simplification of such which was envisioned when they were suppressed AS minor orders.

Regarding altar boys, then, while Rome called for the continuance of a core of “boys”, noting its noble tradition and value in promoting vocations, neither did they suggest that the inclusion of girls was necessarily limited to even more extraordinary circumstances than those which already existed enabling boys to serve at Mass.

Indeed, just as women can now legitimately serve as “readers” (rather than clerical lectors), their adjudication was that girls can legitimately serve at the altar, under canon law and of its own accord. There is no such term “extraordinary” in these matters, as exists in regard to Eucharistic ministers anymore. For they are no longer replacing clerical service in the present understanding.

Now, is it advisable to keep a core of altar boys alone rather than allowing girls to join them in altar service? There are good arguments for such. But it is ultimately a prudential judgement and not as absolute as some would like to make it out to be.

 

[Pius_X]

I know Pius X, you serve with girls and have no problem with it, to which I would say you are the exception, not the rule and I commend you for that.

In my experience, this is not the exception, but the rule. If someone is too immature to serve because it is a “girl’s thing,” then how are they mature enough to serve Mass?

 

[Jared123]

I do not doubt that Lincoln has the most vcations. But this CANNOT satisfactorily linked to one factor, like girls serving, alone.
For real arguments in this point, there should be an in-depth study:

• Interviews with an ampunt of seminarians that is big enough to represent the average, with questioning to their vocation, their reason, their experience with altar girls, serving at mass,their general attitude towards traditionalism in seminaries that are considered traditional and non-traditional alike
• Interviews with current young male servers and non-servers why they serve, why they don’t serve, how they feel towards girls
• A comparison of vocations in different dioceses (for example, the archdiocesis of Hamburg, Germany has MANY vocations and female servers, too, and a neighbouring parish send threee young men to seminary in the course of 1,5 years and has female servers…)

Until then, we do not know if female servers and serving at mass in general are indeed such an important factor to declining vocations and the lack of them is the factor that leads to success in other dioceses like Lincoln - it is justs a personal speculation, whichever stand you take.

I would love to see a study done on this, however I don’t see it happening…most Catholics wouldn’t understand or appreciate the findings. A good measure in the U.S. would be the Arlington Diocese. It was consistantly in the top tier in vocations and was also a diocese that didn’t allow altar girls. They have since caved in on this issue (I believe within the last 2 years). Let’s see what happens to their vocation rates.

 

[Bob67]

We really have come a long way with regards to equality for women. Also, thank God we can now touch Christ, who is a close and near God, not a far off and aloof God.

**I have never received Communion in the Hand!
I don’t feel worthy enough to touch Our Sacred Lord with my defiled hands.

Mother Teresa was asked one time what saddens her the most in this world &
she said that it was Communion in the Hand!

So, what you consider to be so Wonderful,
a Great Saint thinks it’s the Saddest Thing in the World!**

Yea . . . You’ve really come along way baby! . . . to the Left!
At the next stop please take a Right & You can’t go Wrong!

 

[duskyjewel]

Okay, I know I said I was out of this thread, but I can’t stay away.

Jared, you are indulging in the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. In English, “after this, therefore because of this.”

When did vocations in this country and around the world seriously begin to really drop off? I can’t show you any statistics from seminaries to show you for sure, but I can make an educated guess. During the late 60s and the 70s, when the cultural upheaval that affected most of the Western world also affected the Church. Religion became a much less important part of life, it lost its strong hold on people’s imaginations and stopped determining how they live their lives. People stopped encouraging the priesthood or religious orders as careers for their children. And yet, until, let’s say the late 1980s, there were no altar girls. We all know that the OK came in the 90s, but it was in response to the fact that some parishes were already using girls because of a shortage of boys. So let’s just say the late 1980s saw the beginnings of altar girls. So, how exactly did altar girls affect the dropoff in vocations during the late 60s, 70s, and 80s? They couldn’t, because they didn’t exist. Therefore, it must have been other factors. Most of which we are still dealing with today, and have to do with cultural decline and the Church’s loss of power in everyday lives.

You keep citing Lincoln, Nebraska. I am happy for them that they have such a high rate of vocations. I can also tell you that the diocese of Phoenix ordained its largest class of priests in something like a decade earlier this year. I think there is a resurgence going on in many places, that has more to do with younger generations seeing the emptiness of what their parents taught them, and rediscovering the importance of religion in life. We have plenty of altar girls here, and yet the group of priests in training here is getting larger. There are obviously other factors at work. The issue is much more complicated than you wish to make it.

You never addressed my point about how you, over and over, want to blame the people who actually step up and do the work. They are working to serve and fill a void left by people who COULD do the work, but WILL NOT. Why don’t you turn some of your disdain on the slackers? The ones who refuse to be stewards of our faith and our Church by serving her?

 

[Jared123]

Okay, I know I said I was out of this thread, but I can’t stay away.

Jared, you are indulging in the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. In English, “after this, therefore because of this.”

When did vocations in this country and around the world seriously begin to really drop off? I can’t show you any statistics from seminaries to show you for sure, but I can make an educated guess. During the late 60s and the 70s, when the cultural upheaval that affected most of the Western world also affected the Church. Religion became a much less important part of life, it lost its strong hold on people’s imaginations and stopped determining how they live their lives. People stopped encouraging the priesthood or religious orders as careers for their children. And yet, until, let’s say the late 1980s, there were no altar girls. We all know that the OK came in the 90s, but it was in response to the fact that some parishes were already using girls because of a shortage of boys. So let’s just say the late 1980s saw the beginnings of altar girls. So, how exactly did altar girls affect the dropoff in vocations during the late 60s, 70s, and 80s? They couldn’t, because they didn’t exist. Therefore, it must have been other factors. Most of which we are still dealing with today, and have to do with cultural decline and the Church’s loss of power in everyday lives.

You keep citing Lincoln, Nebraska. I am happy for them that they have such a high rate of vocations. I can also tell you that the diocese of Phoenix ordained its largest class of priests in something like a decade earlier this year. I think there is a resurgence going on in many places, that has more to do with younger generations seeing the emptiness of what their parents taught them, and rediscovering the importance of religion in life. We have plenty of altar girls here, and yet the group of priests in training here is getting larger. There are obviously other factors at work. The issue is much more complicated than you wish to make it.

You never addressed my point about how you, over and over, want to blame the people who actually step up and do the work. They are working to serve and fill a void left by people who COULD do the work, but WILL NOT. Why don’t you turn some of your disdain on the slackers? The ones who refuse to be stewards of our faith and our Church by serving her?

Duskyjewel, I’m glad you decided to post on this thread once again. I have several items that I would like to respond to from your post above.
First of all I am glad to here that things are going well in the Diocese of Phoenix. The current Bishop, Bishop Olmsted was originally a priest in the Lincoln Diocese so I am familiar with him. Having a strong Bishop such as he is one big reason for the turn around in vocations.
You are correct vocations to the priesthood started to drop off shortly after Vatican II. The sharp dropoff in vocations forced rectors of seminarys to basically allow anyone into the priesthood that wanted in. The end result of this was some horrible priest and eventually the scandels that followed. That’s another issue to be saved for another time.
I haven’t ever said throughout this whole thread that altar girls are the ONLY reason for the drop in vocations. There are MANY reasons, and altar girls are one of the MANY reason. I also have said throughout this whole thread that I admire girls that stand up and fill in for boys who won’t serve. I have also said that boys will tend to be lazy while girls/women will gladly work and take over their job. But you see this is the whole issue with this thread. When a man says “I don’t think women/girls should be on the altar,” nothing else is heard after that. I have layed out my argument basically showing that I respect women as I respect Mary, and that boys tend to be lazy. Yet none of this is heard. All that is heard is that Jared is a sexist.
Who do I blame for the altar girl issue? There is plenty of blame to go around and won’t get into a blame game. I will say that it isn’t the altar girls fault. What the Vatican, Bishop, Priest, and Catholic laity should be focusing on is how to increase vocations. There are some dioceses that are so desperate for priests that if something isn’t done there will be no priests. And like Fr. Corapi says “if there are no priests, there is no Eucharist.”

 

[Jared123]

I better show some evidence that Bishop Olmsted originally came from Lincoln.

www.diocesephoenix.org/bishop/olmstedbiography.htm

 

[duskyjewel]

I don’t doubt you on that score…he is a very holy and orthodox man. We love him. He is such a relief after O’Brien.

 

[Jared123]

I don’t doubt you on that score…he is a very holy and orthodox man. We love him. He is such a relief after O’Brien.

He will be a faithful shepard for your diocese. Put your obidence in him and Phoenix will flurish.

 

[Pius_X]

I have never received Communion in the Hand!
I don’t feel worthy enough to touch Our Sacred Lord with my defiled hands.

That is your perogative, and preference, but I prefer to make a throne for our Lord.

 

[Jared123]

That is your perogative, and preference, but I prefer to make a throne for our Lord.

I find it interesting that when I go to daily mass 90% of the people receive on the tongue. When I go to Sunday mass 90% of the people receive in the hand.