Vocations & Girl-Altar Boys

[chicago]

Were there really deaconesses within the Catholic in the past? I haven’t ever heard this or read about this.

Yes. There weren’t in ministerial roles in the same way as deacons, but they were there to assist with the women in the Church for administration of the sacraments and such.

I also don’t understand what your mean by altar servers taking the place of a cleric? Define cleric?

Properly, the roles in the Mass which are filled by “altar servers” are appropriate to those in holy orders (either the minor orders such as lector, acolytle, and subdeacon) or the major ones such as deacon. They were long filled by boys only as a substitute for the lack of those clerics who are ordinarily appropriate to the role. So, even having boys fill these roles is not an ideal but an extraordinary exception of allowance.

Under the N.O., these roles and their importance are less well defined and essential. As such, the enablement of females to legitimately fill them.

 

[verdigirl]

Verdigirl,
Are you in favor of women ordination? In other words women being ordained as priest?

Not really. I submit to the Magisterium. And I’m more in favor of qualified men being called to the priesthood instead of any warm misogynist body that comes along.

However, if they let me, I would apply for the deaconate.

Why do you ask? If had answered “yes,” would you start a jihad against me? How is that material to this discussion?

 

[Jared123]

Properly, the roles in the Mass which are filled by “altar servers” are appropriate to those in holy orders (either the minor orders such as lector, acolytle, and subdeacon) or the major ones such as deacon. They were long filled by boys only as a substitute for the lack of those clerics who are ordinarily appropriate to the role. So, even having boys fill these roles is not an ideal but an extraordinary exception of allowance.

.

Considering that men fill all the positions listed above do you see why the Church would want altar boys as their first choice?

 

[Jared123]

Not really. I submit to the Magisterium. And I’m more in favor of qualified men being called to the priesthood instead of any warm misogynist body that comes along.

However, if they let me, I would apply for the deaconate.

Why do you ask? If had answered “yes,” would you start a jihad against me? How is that material to this discussion?

I wanted to see how you would respond to my question. The first paragraph you wrote was great. Follow the Magesterium and you will never be let down.
You don’t have to worry about the Church allowing you to apply to be a deaconate. The Church doesn’t have the authority to allow women ordination, as a deacon or priest. Holy Orders are a Sacrament established by Christ. There is nothing we can do to change this. My question to you was a loaded question. I know that women can’t ever be ordained.
How is this material to this discussion? There is an element within the Catholic Church that is actively trying to get women to be ordained (even though we all know this can’t ever be validally done). Why is this element growing within the Church? I believe that as more and more women are seen on the altar, the average Catholic begins to wonder, why can’t a women be a ordained, they are already serving mass, passing out communion, and heck men don’t want to be priest, so why can’t women do it?

 

[verdigirl]

I wanted to see how you would respond to my question. The first paragraph you wrote was great. Follow the Magesterium and you will never be let down.
You don’t have to worry about the Church allowing you to apply to be a deaconate. The Church doesn’t have the authority to allow women ordination, as a deacon or priest. Holy Orders are a Sacrament established by Christ. There is nothing we can do to change this. My question to you was a loaded question. I know that women can’t ever be ordained.
How is this material to this discussion? There is an element within the Catholic Church that is actively trying to get women to be ordained (even though we all know this can’t ever be validally done). Why is this element growing within the Church? I believe that as more and more women are seen on the altar, the average Catholic begins to wonder, why can’t a women be a ordained, they are already serving mass, passing out communion, and heck men don’t want to be priest, so why can’t women do it?

Do you feel proud of yourself, purposely trying to deceive me and entrap me into exposing myself for your sport? You should be ashamed of yourself.

I can’t believe your arrogance, and I did not submit myself to you to judge me. Lying and deceit is a mortal sin. You know what to do now.

Thank God for Vatican II!

 

[chicago]

Considering that men fill all the positions listed above do you see why the Church would want altar boys as their first choice?

Well, actually, I see why the Church would want adult males instituted in the proper minor orders as the first choice. Once you get into filling those spots with a sort of junior membership, it really is just a lay role - nothing more. But, of course, it is understandable that there has been a longstanding tradition of allowing boys to fill these positions firstly in lieu of that role as a sort of intro into liturgical minsitry. Similarly, one could argue for the restoration of boy choirs to sing the propers.

 

[Jared123]

Do you feel proud of yourself, purposely trying to deceive me and entrap me into exposing myself for your sport? You should be ashamed of yourself.

I can’t believe your arrogance, and I did not submit myself to you to judge me. Lying and deceit is a mortal sin. You know what to do now.

Thank God for Vatican II!

I was niether trying to entrap you or deceive you. I simply asked you a question that I knew the answer to…something teachers on every level do. I also don’t look as this as a sport but rather trying to educate the faithful, you would be surpried how many Catholics think that women can be validally ordained a priest.

 

[Jared123]

Well, . Similarly, one could argue for the restoration of boy choirs to sing the propers.

Hey I never thought about that! Lets first start with the altar and then we will work on the music issue.

 

[verdigirl]

I was niether trying to entrap you or deceive you. I simply asked you a question that I knew the answer to…something teachers on every level do. I also don’t look as this as a sport but rather trying to educate the faithful, you would be surpried how many Catholics think that women can be validally ordained a priest.

To consider yourself a self-appointed teacher to a complete stranger is pretty arrogant. You should still be ashamed. This was a poll, not an apologetics thread.

 

[Jared123]

To consider yourself a self-appointed teacher to a complete stranger is pretty arrogant. You should still be ashamed. This was a poll, not an apologetics thread.

Aren’t we all complete strangers on this website? And no one ever teaches strangers information that is useful to their faith life, and if they do they are arrogant?
Come on verdigirl admit you aren’t fond of me because I don’t approve of altar girls, or that women period should be on the altar. This has nothing to do with how I view a womans dignity. Women and men share the same dignity in the eyes of God.
I have another question for you and I will admit up front that I know the answer to. I also will not mock you if you don’t know the answer.
What created person do we honor as Catholics above every other created person in the histroy of man?

 

[verdigirl]

Aren’t we all complete strangers on this website? And no one ever teaches strangers information that is useful to their faith life, and if they do they are arrogant?
Come on verdigirl admit you aren’t fond of me because I don’t approve of altar girls, or that women period should be on the altar. This has nothing to do with how I view a womans dignity. Women and men share the same dignity in the eyes of God.
I have another question for you and I will admit up front that I know the answer to. I also will not mock you if you don’t know the answer.
What created person do we honor as Catholics above every other created person in the histroy of man?

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I’m just not trying to “school” you because I don’t like yours. I gave you that respect. Why not respect me as well?

 

[Jared123]

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I’m just not trying to “school” you because I don’t like yours. I gave you that respect. Why not respect me as well?

No anwer to the question?

 

[verdigirl]

No anwer to the question?

No. You are being disrespectful to me, and I won’t play along.

 

[chicago]

No anwer to the question?

I think her (legitimate) point is that serious, respectful, adult conversation is becoming of us. Talking down to someone as if they are a child, thinking that we will “educate” them in something which they, surely, already understand just to make a point is not called for in mature dialog.

 

[Jared123]

No. You are being disrespectful to me, and I won’t play along.

I am not being disrespectful to you and I am sorry if you get that impression. However, I am going to answer my own question. What created person to we honor as Catholics above every other created person in the histroy of man? It isn’t a man but rather a woman…Mary. Even though there will never be a validally ordained women in the histroy of Chruch, we has Catholics honor Mary as being the Mother of God, the vessel through which God became man. The Church isn’t anti-women, and Bishops or Priest who don’t allow women on the altar are not anti-women, to think this way would dishonor Mary.
I wanted to write this to let you and others know that a person can be against altar girls and not be a sexist.

 

[anamchara]

Why do you ask? If had answered “yes,” would you start a jihad against me? How is that material to this discussion?

Verdigirl, I applaud your response here. Far too many love the sport of public flogging it frustrates me to no end.

First of all the name “Girl-alter boys” is ridiculously stupid and second, they are allowed and when these people will ever get over it,I’ll never know. I was in this same debate a few months ago, same song different players.

 

[verdigirl]

Verdigirl, I applaud your response here. Far too many love the sport of public flogging it frustrates me to no end.

First of all the name “Girl-alter boys” is ridiculously stupid and second, they are allowed and when these people will ever get over it,I’ll never know. I was in this same debate a few months ago, same song different players.

Thank you…and I agree. I just find it astonishing how much people will be all for Church tenets when it comes to abortion or female priests, and yet they conveniently forget them when it comes to issues that are more in the “liberal” agenda. Then all of a sudden there is this “ex cathedra or not” scrutiny.

Christians, let us love one another. Sheesh!

 

[anamchara]

How is this material to this discussion? There is an element within the Catholic Church that is actively trying to get women to be ordained (even though we all know this can’t ever be validally done). Why is this element growing within the Church? I believe that as more and more women are seen on the altar, the average Catholic begins to wonder, why can’t a women be a ordained, they are already serving mass, passing out communion, and heck men don’t want to be priest, so why can’t women do it?

You know what Jared, I am frankly sick of this old tune. It’s an excuse to push your own personal traditional agenda. “we are only worried…cause…well there this element” Rubbish. I train altar severs “boys and girls” my daughter is an altar server and I’ve been to enough parishes and met enough trainers to know this element you speak of is a bunch traditional propaganda. I don’t doubt these people are indeed within the Church but not to the level you people are constantly claiming. Most of us are just trying to serve and have our kids been happily involved. It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting our daughters to be priests nor is it somehow promoting this idea. You honestly believe the average Catholic is that stupid?

You would really do better not to assume everyone that you meet online that supports altar girls needs to be educated on this so called “element” or that Catholics are not fully aware of the importance of the vocation to Priesthood.

What it really comes down to is what is being taught at home and in catechism, end of story.

I second it! Thank GOD! for Vatican II!

 

[duskyjewel]

Yeah, I too am sick of the whole thing. People like Jared love to tell the rest of us, “Well, the Vatican said this, that, or the other thing, and you HAVE to accept it or you are not a true and faithful Catholic!” Not that I necessarily disagree with that. But on this topic, and others traditionalists hold dear, somehow it is OK to qualify, interpret, and somehow downplay what the Vatican said.

The Vatican, under JPII nonetheless (hardly a woman-promoting radical!), said altar girls are OK. That is good enough for me, and for my daughter. And for my sons. I, for one, am not in favor of turning anyone away from any ministry because some other person, or group of people, has a maturity problem. And that’s really what this whole “I don’t wanna be with girls” thing is. It’s stupid, and we shouldn’t cater to it.

Another thing Jared said that irked me was about women taking power away from priests by running the parishes. Hello, Jared, most priests are overwhelmed, some of them running huge parishes alone with no associate priests, or running multiple parishes, again with no or few associates. The reason there are positions like parish administrators is because they are needed. And again, if men won’t step up to do the jobs, we women are supposed to just sit on our hands and let the parishes collapse instead of doing the work? What kind of stewards of our faith would that make us? You seem to like to blame the people who actually step up and do the work that needs to be done. I think your focus needs to turn more toward those who will not, even though they have the ability and are needed!

I’m out. I can’t comment on anything about this anymore in any way that might even look charitable.

 

[verdigirl]

What kind of stewards of our faith would that make us? You seem to like to blame the people who actually step up and do the work that needs to be done. I think your focus needs to turn more toward those who will not, even though they have the ability and are needed!

I’m out. I can’t comment on anything about this anymore in any way that might even look charitable.

Amen, sister. I can’t help but recall how Mary jump-started Jesus’ life of ministry. He even got snippy with her!

Last time I checked, she was a woman. Go figure.

Thank you for modeling prudence for me by wanting to be charitable!