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Guitar
Guest
Nope. We have at last count as many seminarians in my parish as just about the whole of the state put together, and we have had female altar servers for some time.
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anamchara
Guest
We had seven men who were ordained in our diocese last June and we use females.
This is from our local Catholic News:
" A majority of the men ordained this year nationwide, like many of the seminarians soon to be ordained for the diocese, were invited to their priestly vocation by another priest."
If you read through the reasons these men were called to a priestly life, it becomes obvious that it has nothing to do having only altar boys. It’s really more about what their family life was like and who influenced them in the faith. I’m sorry but I really feel it is not only simple minded to believe having only boys will increase vocations but it also diminishes the power of the Holy Spirit in a young mans life.
Some of the men featured in our diocese paper did indeed altar serve as young men but if you read their bios, it becomes very apparent it wouldn’t have mattered if they were girls serving along with them.
Here’s a few examples of what these wonderful men had to say about their calling to religious life:
"Call to religious life: For Snyder, the call to religious life couldn’t have come earlier. He recalled a story told to him as a child by his mother, a devout Catholic and “woman of prayer,” who offered the unborn child she carried to serve God.
Family life involved sitting up front at church every Sunday Mass, and studying the priests he admired and sometimes imitated as a child by donning a white sheet which served as his vestment."
And here is a local boy who by the way, served along side girls:
"Call to religious life: When he was a fifth grader, he became an alter server and met a priest who would change his life. It was his pastor, the late Father R D.
“He had seen something in me and had said, ‘You’ll be the first priest for this parish,’” Derek said.
At the time it seemed to Derek, who gave serious thought to “being a teacher, getting married and having a family,” that it was kind of a crazy idea.
There were, however, always close ties to priests at St. Mel, a place where Derek spent a fair amount of time and grew in his faith.
“Father D really taught me more about the priesthood by the way he lived his life than any conferences we ever had,” he said." (I took out full names for privacy)
It is our Lord who calls young men and the Holy Spirit works through others to intercede. Why is this so difficult to understand, that it is so much bigger than us? It has nothing do with girls serving. Let this be and trust in Christ.
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Pius_X
Guest
Exactly. If the boy does not want to serve because it is a “girl’s” thing, then that is his problem, not the girl’s problem.
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iamscifimike
Guest
Not all men answer the call. We are merely concerned about those who are on the cusp of answering it and any slight early adolescent suggestion might disuade them.
It would really be nice if there was an adolescent female only group. maybe something contemplative.
Hey, how do people feel about Girl Scouts/Boy Scouts, or all girl/boy sports teams?
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Petergee
Guest
Oztralia.(I decided to be somewhat coy about my nationality after a few US posters here and on other fora used my nationality against me, claiming that I had no right to discuss US politics etc and that I was being rude to Americans.)
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Lepanto
Guest
How many of them will be so inspired by their service as altar girls to go on to the priesthood?
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LSK
Guest
If they are good Catholics, being well formed in the Faith and Truth, none…however, tonight I heard one of our young female altar servers ask to speak to a nun after Mass…because she was feeling a call to the sisterhood, and wanted to speak to Sister about vocation discernment.
The young girl is 14.
So…she is being influenced by her service to Our Lord on the Altar.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Bob:
I really believe that the best way to answer this question is to compare what has happened to vocations to the priesthood and religious life in those churches where girls were allowed to act as “Altar Servers” to what has happened to vocations in those churches which either haven’t allowed girls to act as alter servers or have reversed their decision to allow girl altar servers.
You’ll find that those churches which have allowed girl altar servers (esp. to the exclusion of boy altar servers) have had a much lower rate of vocations than those which either didn’t allow girl altar servers or reversed the decision to allow girl altar servers. The saying about boys serving at the altar being the nursery for vocations to the priesthood and religious life is proving to be true.
So far, those churches which have allowed girls to act as altar servers have not seen a rise in vocations among women, let alone one that would compensate for the lost of vocations among men.
I believe the correct terms would either be “Altar Servers” or “Acolytes”. Although most us use the term “Altar Servers”, “Acolytes” is the older and more traditional term which described an ancient “Minor Order”. Because the “Order of Acolytes” was a Minor Order, only boys and young men were and are allowed to belong to the Order.
Who serves at the Altar of God isn’t a Civil Rights issue and never can be treated as such, and we can’t allow ourselves the luxury of treating those who have gone before us as “Racist, Sexist Bigots”. Who serves at the Altar of God must be first and foremost about glorifying God and of Building up the Body of Christ.
God is most glorified when our worship is centered on Him and the marvelous things He has done for us and the greatness of His Name, and when our Divine Liturgy most replicates the Heavenly Liturgy while recapitulating the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ on Calvery. I can’t see how admitting girls into the Order of Acolytes in order to satisfy a feminist agenda is going to accomplish any of these.
The Body of Christ is most built up by doing those things which will produce priests and other sacred ministers and religious to bring the Gospel to a lost world and to minister to the Body of Christ. If we do those things which are antithetical to this, or which militate against this, we are tearing down the Body of Christ, not building it up.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Anamchara:
The question isn’t whether 7 men were ordained last June. It’s how many men have Retired (or reached the age where they should have retired), or Died, or Become Disabled, or (God forbid) Left the Priesthood in the last year, and how many people the remaining priests have to serve…
Their family lives obviously had something to do with it, but it’s far from simple minded to say that serving at the Altar of God as Acolytes had nothing to do with the ability to hear God’s Call…
It is true that it is our Lord who calls young men to serve Him as Bishops, Priests and Deacons, as well as other Religious. But, Have you ever thought that we can put roadblocks and obstacles in the way so that it’s so difficult for young men to hear the Call they simply can’t?..
Scripture says that we would know whether something comes from God by its fruit. Since the fruit of this is fewer vocations to the priesthood and religious life, based on Scripture and the Tradition of the Church (and not some agenda that’s “bigger than ourselves”), what should our reasoned judgment be about this?
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
The question isn’t whether 7 men were ordained last June. It’s how many men have Retired (or reached the age where they should have retired), or Died, or Become Disabled, or (God forbid) Left the Priesthood in the last year, and how many people the remaining priests have to serve…
…The statistics are all too clear on this - In this country, and others in the West, Catholics are being shepherded by about 1/3 of the priests they were in the 1950’s and early 1960’s.
Their family lives obviously had something to do with it, but it’s far from simple minded to say that serving at the Altar of God as Acolytes had nothing to do with the ability to hear God’s Call…
…That’s NOT what the STATISTICS and the interviews of thousands of men across the decades have said.
…Have you ever been to the typical parish so many of the members here of been to where the only male up at the altar has been the priest and ALL of the “Altar Servers” have been girls? Have you seen the statistics on vocations from those parishes and the dioceses where that has been the norm?
It is true that it is our Lord who calls young men to serve Him as Bishops, Priests and Deacons, as well as other Religious. But, Have you ever thought that we can put roadblocks and obstacles in the way so that it’s so difficult for young men to hear the Call they simply can’t?..
…And, If the statistics demonstrate that this emphasis on placing young women in place of young men at the Altar of God make it extremely difficult for so many young men to hear the Call of God, why are we doing this?
Scripture says that we would know whether something comes from God by its fruit. Since the fruit of this is fewer vocations to the priesthood and religious life, based on Scripture and the Tradition of the Church (and not some agenda that’s “bigger than ourselves”), what should our reasoned judgment be about this?
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Petergee
Guest
TraditionalAng, you have made a lot of unfounded assertions.
- Neither you nor anyone else has produced any of the “statistics” which you claim show that places with girl altar services have fewer vocations. Putting the word “STATISTICS” in block capitals does not prove anything. Even if such stats did exist, they would not prove that the two phenomena are causally related. And I’d be interested to see these supposed “interviews with thousands of young men” who allegedly stated that they chose not to become priests because of the existence of girl altar servers.
- No-one is "treating those who have gone before us as “Racist, Sexist Bigots”. " so put that straw-man away.
- Having girl altar servers is nothing to do with “a feminist agenda”, at least not in the pejorative meaning which you give to “feminist”, but only in the sense of true feminism (true equality between the sexes) which the Church has always promoted, which leads to the principle that all ministries which do not require the Scarament of Holy Orders must at least in principle be open to suitable members of the faithful of either sex.
This is quite wrong. The number of priests has remained about the same (although this has been more than offset by a rise in the number of priests in non-western countries). The problem is that the number of lay faithful in the West has increased without a proportionate increase in priest numbers. In fact the proportion of priests to practising lay Catholics has **increased **in the West. The problem is that there are so many non-practising/nominal Catholics. If we can get a larger proportion of nominal Catholics to practice their religion, there will be a proportionate inc rease in priestly vocations.
Not only is this not “typical”, in fact I have never seen a parish like this. Every parish I have seen which has girl/woman altar servers also has boy/men altar servers in at least equal numbers. I have certainly never seen any evidence of
If as you allege, there are people who are kicking out or excluding young men from altar service and replacing them with young women, please produce evidence or withdraw this absurd and offensive allegation.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Petergee:
Did you know that the Catholic Church in America has fewer than 20,000 priests today, down from 45,000 priests just 50 years ago, and fewer than Italy, Spain and France? If what we are doing works so well, why the precipitous decline in priests over the last 50 years? and, Why do we have more Catholics per priest than the countries I just listed?
If what I’m referring to as “Statistics” aren’t so, then why has everyone been refering to a “Priest Shortage” in several countries of the Roman Catholic Church for most of the last 20 years when that term was almost never used before? If they aren’t true, why are so many of our Seminaries so empty? and, If we’re ordaining so many priests, why are so many of our priests having to be kept working well beyond retirement age?
If the priest shortage weren’t a reality, why are priests trying to serve 2 and 3 parishes, while many other parishes go without a celebration of the Eucharist on many Sundays? and, If there are so many laity and priests, why are dioceses closing so many parishes in the inner cities and elsewhere?
I’m sorry if I don’t have the facts right at hand, but everything I’ve said has been previously established in previous threads and conversations in this forum and elsewhere.
Ask the Traditionalists (Anything from the TLM Community within the Church to the “Empty Seaters”) if they have a “Priest Shortage”, in spite of a fivefold increase in their membership over the last 1-1/2 decade. I’m sure they’ll give you an answer - It just won’t be the one you want to hear.
Ask the Orthodox if they have a “Priest Shortage” - They’ve also grown in membership, even implimenting a “Western Rite” of an Orthodox Church. I’m pretty sure they’ll give you the same answer.
That leaves the Traditionalist Anglicans… TAC, APKC, etc. My own parish had 3 priests serving community of 200 or so people until one of the priests sttarted a “Mission Parish”. We now have 2 priests for a community of 175 (25 left with the one priest, and a new Rector replaced the one who resigned).
The Catholic parish down the street from me has 2 priest (one of whom is retired) serving your average Urban parish community (1,500-2,000 Catholics).
Regarding the bit about the Priest being the only male up at the Altar, that’s been reported by various posters here and some callers and hosts on EWTN. I’ve also seen it myself, including a couple of times a couple of years ago at a parish in No. California.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
Did you know that the Catholic Church in America has fewer than 20,000 priests today, down from 45,000 priests just 50 years ago, and fewer than Italy, Spain and France? If what we are doing works so well, why the precipitous decline in priests over the last 50 years? and, Why do we have more Catholics per priest than the countries I just listed?
If what I’m referring to as “Statistics” aren’t so, then why has everyone been refering to a “Priest Shortage” in several countries of the Roman Catholic Church for most of the last 20 years when that term was almost never used before? If they aren’t true, why are so many of our Seminaries so empty? and, If we’re ordaining so many priests, why are so many of our priests having to be kept working well beyond retirement age?
If the priest shortage weren’t a reality, why are priests trying to serve 2 and 3 parishes, while many other parishes go without a celebration of the Eucharist on many Sundays? and, If there are so many laity and priests, why are dioceses closing so many parishes in the inner cities and elsewhere?
I’m sorry if I don’t have the facts right at hand, but everything I’ve said has been previously established in previous threads and conversations in this forum and elsewhere.
Ask the Traditionalists (Anything from the TLM Community within the Church to the “Empty Seaters”) if they have a “Priest Shortage”, in spite of a fivefold increase in their membership over the last 1-1/2 decade. I’m sure they’ll give you an answer - It just won’t be the one you want to hear.
Ask the Orthodox if they have a “Priest Shortage” - They’ve also grown in membership, even implimenting a “Western Rite” of an Orthodox Church. I’m pretty sure they’ll give you the same answer.
That leaves the Traditionalist Anglicans… TAC, APKC, etc. My own parish had 3 priests serving community of 200 or so people until one of the priests sttarted a “Mission Parish”. We now have 2 priests for a community of 175 (25 left with the one priest, and a new Rector replaced the one who resigned).
The Catholic parish down the street from me has 2 priest (one of whom is retired) serving your average Urban parish community (1,500-2,000 Catholics).
Regarding the bit about the Priest being the only male up at the Altar, that’s been reported by various posters here and some callers and hosts on EWTN. I’ve also seen it myself, including a couple of times a couple of years ago at a parish in No. California.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Petergee
Guest
TradAng, you’re moving the goalposts again. No-one is denying there is a priest shortage. I was merely refuting your assertion that shortages of priests are only in places where there are girl altar servers, and (even more far-fetched)) caused by the existence of girl altar servers. In any case IIRC the priest shortage in Italy, Spain and France is more severe than in the USA.
There are many many differences between the Catholic Church and “Traditionalist Catholics”/ Eastern Orthodox/Traditionalist Anglicans, besides the fact that the former has altar girls. It’s absurd to say that this must be the reason why these other churches have fewer laity per priest.
) Now you’re saying that this is so merely because you’ve been to a couple of Masses where all/both/the only altar server/s were girls. Naturally in a parish which has servers of both sexes, there will be some Masses where only (a) girl/s serve/s, and some Masses where only (a) boy/s serve/s. I would have thought that this would be welcomed by those who are pushing the idea that some boys don’t want to serve alongside girls. (Though if they are that immature they don’t seem to be the stuff of which priests are made.)
And it’s absurd to suggest that simply by allowing altar girls to exist the Church is “putting roadblocks and obstacles in the way so that it’s so difficult for young men to hear the Call they simply can’t”.
There are many many differences between the Catholic Church and “Traditionalist Catholics”/ Eastern Orthodox/Traditionalist Anglicans, besides the fact that the former has altar girls. It’s absurd to say that this must be the reason why these other churches have fewer laity per priest.
You’re moving the goalposts again. Your allegation was that in “the typical parish”, “ALL of the altar servers are girls” (Nice touch btw putting “Altar Servers” in inverted commas as if to say well of course a mere woman can never be a real altar server"
) Now you’re saying that this is so merely because you’ve been to a couple of Masses where all/both/the only altar server/s were girls. Naturally in a parish which has servers of both sexes, there will be some Masses where only (a) girl/s serve/s, and some Masses where only (a) boy/s serve/s. I would have thought that this would be welcomed by those who are pushing the idea that some boys don’t want to serve alongside girls. (Though if they are that immature they don’t seem to be the stuff of which priests are made.)And it’s absurd to suggest that simply by allowing altar girls to exist the Church is “putting roadblocks and obstacles in the way so that it’s so difficult for young men to hear the Call they simply can’t”.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Dear Petergee:
I must admit some consternation - One source I read was quite confident in citing:
219,583 Total active priests in the world
25,823 active priests in Italy
22,679 active priests in Spain
19,835 active priests in France
and,
19,309 active priests in the USA
But, All (except the Protestants whose list is cited) agreed that there was and is a “Priest Shortage”:
Searching Its Soul: The U.S. Catholic Church – Second of four articles.; Wellspring of Priests Dries Up, Changing Much of Parish Life
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EEDD123BF933A05756C0A962958260
I think the article explains the ambiguity between the numbers (a lot of priests have left the priesthood, retired or died - I’ve known a couple). It also explains what’s happening to our parishes and to the Lord’s sheep.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
I must admit some consternation - One source I read was quite confident in citing:
219,583 Total active priests in the world
25,823 active priests in Italy
22,679 active priests in Spain
19,835 active priests in France
and,
19,309 active priests in the USA
- a list of other countries…
But, All (except the Protestants whose list is cited) agreed that there was and is a “Priest Shortage”:
Searching Its Soul: The U.S. Catholic Church – Second of four articles.; Wellspring of Priests Dries Up, Changing Much of Parish Life
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EEDD123BF933A05756C0A962958260
I think the article explains the ambiguity between the numbers (a lot of priests have left the priesthood, retired or died - I’ve known a couple). It also explains what’s happening to our parishes and to the Lord’s sheep.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Petergee
Guest
Dear TraditionalAng,
I repeat, I do not for one moment dispute the fact that there is a priest shortage in most Western countries. I merely refute your allegation that the shortage of priests is caused by the existence of female altar servers. And your overblown rhetoric.
I repeat, I do not for one moment dispute the fact that there is a priest shortage in most Western countries. I merely refute your allegation that the shortage of priests is caused by the existence of female altar servers. And your overblown rhetoric.
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Leeta
Guest
Girl altar servers are a part of the problem. They are not the whole problem, but they are definitely a hindrance to vocations for boys. Right at the age, 4th grade, when young boys need to be formed spiritually, there are the girls pushing them away from the opportunity to see what a priest does up close. Boys are spiritually weaker than girls in general, so that girls should, for the love of their weaker brothers, not serve. I know because I live with 7 men and I have to constantly keep them on the right track to God. Otherwise they would become so involved with their toys, that they would ignore the spiritual world.
Many boys receive their first inclination to consider the priesthood while serving. Apprenticeship is just that-trying out something to see what it is like to do. And girls can never be priests. And I am not aware of any female religious vocation which involves traipsing around the altar during the Holy Mass as its raison d’etre.
Many boys receive their first inclination to consider the priesthood while serving. Apprenticeship is just that-trying out something to see what it is like to do. And girls can never be priests. And I am not aware of any female religious vocation which involves traipsing around the altar during the Holy Mass as its raison d’etre.
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Leeta
Guest
When only 4 altar servers are needed at Mass and two of them are girls, that means 2 fewer boys get to serve. After altar girls came in, my sons could no longer serve at Sunday Mass, because there were enough girls that they were pushed out. Also the priest later went about actively recruiting girls to serve- affirmative action.
Also, my boys went through a long period (10 years) of shunning anything which had to do with girls. It has to do with the way young boys are. They are very hands on and need to do something in order to stay focused. You can’t change boys’ nature just because you may like and want girl altar servers. So due to the weakness of boys and the failure of those in authority to note how boys are, many potential vocations are stymied at the very beginning.
Also, my boys went through a long period (10 years) of shunning anything which had to do with girls. It has to do with the way young boys are. They are very hands on and need to do something in order to stay focused. You can’t change boys’ nature just because you may like and want girl altar servers. So due to the weakness of boys and the failure of those in authority to note how boys are, many potential vocations are stymied at the very beginning.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Petergee:
I’m not saying that the allowing women to serve as Acolytes at the Altar of God is the ONLY cause for the Priest Shortage, but I am saying that it is one of MANY causes. On the basis of evidence presented by myself and others in this Forum (in other threads) and elsewhere, I ask you to consider that possibility rather than dismissing it out of hand as you seem to have done. This isn’t a debate about “Equal Rights”, but a discussion about how best to worship God and to build up the Body of Christ.
The Sacred Scriptures have given us a test whereby we can tell whether this is from from God or from Man. If this this were from God, having women serve as Acolytes at the Altar of God would not only not harm vocations to the priesthood, but would dramatically increase those vocations. In fact, the opposite has occurred in those Churches (Catholic & Protestant) that have encouraged women to serve as Acolytes at the Atlar of God. As you have admitted, they have been, and are, facing priest and ministerial shortages, unlike the Traditionalist Catholic and Anglican Communities, & the Eastern Orthodox Churches, which haven’t allowed women to serve as Acolytes at the Altar of God, and have plenty of priests and other sacred ministers.
Does promoting women to serve as Acolytes at the Altar of God pass the Scriptural Test?
I think you should read Leeta’s account of what happened with her sons. I believe what happened there isn’t as unusual as many want to believe.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Petergee
Guest
Of course I consider the possibility. However the evidence which you and others have adduced here is not nearly enough to justify your sweeping claims that the existence of female altar servers in itself is a cause of a decline in vocations, and your claim that this and its converse is a rule among various churches. e.g. I know that the non-traditional Anglicans have a surplus of vocations even though they allow women to be acolytes .
And to correct your terms, neither does the Catholic Church allow women to be instituted “acolytes”, only “servers” with a delegated function.
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Pious_Mat
Guest
Most of the altar servers in my Diocese are over 50. The vast majority, in fact. The very few boys that do serve mass are certainly not on the path to priesthood. In fact, I think they only do it because their mothers make them. Of the four, I know for a fact that two are very open about(and proud of) the fact that they regularly involve themselves in fornication and drink excessively. One also told me some time ago (we are also classmates) that he occasionally uses marijuana. Worst of all, they seem completely unrepentant. We also have two girl altar servers on the list (they don’t get to serve very often) who are somewhat younger and live far more righteously, but in my conversations with them, they don’t seem to exhibit much knowledge about the Church, much less what happens at Mass. I spoke with one’s mother not long ago, and she told me that she didn’t see the point in going to confession, and since she is the greatest spiritual influence in this girl’s life, I doubt she does either.
And I won’t even get into the older servers’ various beliefs.
In the end, we have to ask ourselves, are we letting just anybody serve the mass, male and female? The NO is very easy to serve; in fact, I would not put the task beyond a well-trained monkey. That said, is it too easy to serve the NO mass, and are people of both genders who aren’t very dedicated being allowed to serve merely because they are capable?
I generally believe that the office of altar server is reserved for young men, but I’d rather have a pious girl than an ignorant or hypocritical boy.
And I won’t even get into the older servers’ various beliefs.
In the end, we have to ask ourselves, are we letting just anybody serve the mass, male and female? The NO is very easy to serve; in fact, I would not put the task beyond a well-trained monkey. That said, is it too easy to serve the NO mass, and are people of both genders who aren’t very dedicated being allowed to serve merely because they are capable?
I generally believe that the office of altar server is reserved for young men, but I’d rather have a pious girl than an ignorant or hypocritical boy.
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
Small point, and this may warrant a new thread, but the “non-traditional Anglicans” (Episcopalians) here in America have rather a glut of vocations for a shrinking population of faithful, but honestly, it is hard to even come close to comparing… They additionally ordain men, women, married, unmarried, remarried, (& “civil unionists”), homosexuals…
I wouldn’t expect them to suffer a decline in vocations for having altar girls… Their doors are pretty wide open to begin with.
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