Volunteer Firefighters VS Living Wage Principle

  • Thread starter Thread starter Darrel
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Vern,

It’s nothing personal. In reading alot your debates and participating in a few I see a pattern of slick debate style that uses some pretty effective spin. Your a good debater take it as a compliment. And for somebody stating being personal makes you loose an agument… you sure do make a lot of “you” statements. :hmmm:
In other words, you did mean to make it personal.
If the town can afford payed firefighters and simply chooses not to create those jobs I think that equates to using people who do those jobs for free. (Still a good and charitable act by the volunteers)
No town can afford everything. The money saved is used elsewhere.
Here is an expample of spin. I talk about towns paying people for doing an important job if they can afford to like other towns do. And you compair that to joining an effort in finding a lost person. Then you take an act of personal charity like teaching catechism and compair it to a town not paying people for what other towns do pay people.
Are you saying that serving as a volunteer fireman is not an act of personal charity?

Now,** that’s** spin!
Let me show you an example of spin to benefit my side of this argument. Lets say I make the final decision for the town.

I will create a volunteer snow removal department. I will use town funds to send people to school for there CDL. Then I will use them to run our snow removal process in the winter. We don’t need those town employees who do our snow removal now.
And this is bad, how? If the snow gets removed this way, you have more money to spend on other things the town needs.
Lets just lay them off. I’ll hire someone to recruit volunteers and advertise the fact that they get free CDL training if they help us once a month in the winter when it snows. This will reduce our outflow of money by eliminating town salaries. Because the people volunteer it’s all morally right.
Snow removal’s not a permanent job, now is it? You don’t get a lot of snow in August, now do you?

The people who do snow removal are typically part of the city street department, and they have other jobs. Put them to doing those other jobs.
I mentioned earlier that a town near me was using a stipen system etc. Please read the post. I am not hear to put a town on trial and post numbers.
When you make a factual argument, you must use facts…
I don’t understand this.
You claim the system was “using” people. I simply asked for evidence.
Why? I said using people is contray to Christian teaching.
Who’s being used? Where’s your evidence that any town with a volunteer fire department is “using” anybody?
Jesus provided for his deciples.
And He will provide for volunteers as He provided for them.
Jesus provided food for the 5000 as well. God gives people what they need out of love. Remember the nets bursting with fish? Do you think when we go to heaven it will be a democracy with a free market economy?
Do you think God will not provide for those of us who give of ourselves to others? Does God demand we sit on our backsides and milk the taxpayer?

If we have a problem, it isn’t that we have **too many **volunteers in this country!!
 
In other words, you did mean to make it personal.

No town can afford everything. The money saved is used elsewhere.

Are you saying that serving as a volunteer fireman is not an act of personal charity?

Now,** that’s** spin!

And this is bad, how? If the snow gets removed this way, you have more money to spend on other things the town needs.

Snow removal’s not a permanent job, now is it? You don’t get a lot of snow in August, now do you?

The people who do snow removal are typically part of the city street department, and they have other jobs. Put them to doing those other jobs.

When you make a factual argument, you must use facts…

You claim the system was “using” people. I simply asked for evidence.

Who’s being used? Where’s your evidence that any town with a volunteer fire department is “using” anybody?

And He will provide for volunteers as He provided for them.

Do you think God will not provide for those of us who give of ourselves to others? Does God demand we sit on our backsides and milk the taxpayer?

If we have a problem, it isn’t that we have **too many **volunteers in this country!!
hehe,

I know we could go back and forth for 50 posts so I’ll cut it short and say good debate Vern. My appologies if I came off as being personal. I think both sides of the issue have been pretty well picked apart.

-D
 
hehe,

I know we could go back and forth for 50 posts so I’ll cut it short and say good debate Vern. My appologies if I came off as being personal. I think both sides of the issue have been pretty well picked apart.

-D
Okay
 
hehe,

I know we could go back and forth for 50 posts so I’ll cut it short and say good debate Vern. My appologies if I came off as being personal. I think both sides of the issue have been pretty well picked apart.

-D
I agree with you, Darrel. Now if we could get this reasoned thinking to some of the other subjects on the forum that keep going round and round. Everybody is talking and no one is listening.
 
I’d like to get to the bottom of many of these postings and clear up some misconceptions:

Not all taxes are voted on, they are often levied. That is almost all government bodies are given a set amount (usually set by the State Constitution) that they may collect without a vote of the people so that they can run government. This amount is often set by a formula that accounts for population and the value of the community. This, set amount was originally designed to pay for the infrastructure of government, usually based in the concepts of Life and Safety.

Some Cities, Villages, or Townships, augment their systems with other, citizen supported, taxes. The community I work in started the career path of firefighters without increasing taxes. Government has a history of misappropriating funds. Michigan, for instance, received tax money from the state know as shared revenue, which in concept was supposed to be earmarked for public safety, but had been diverted to pet projects for years. Now when the state cut this money the public safety departments got cut, but most often the pet projects remained with little if any cuts.

Professional Firefighters most often are required to hold many certificates and licenses. Today the training to become a full-time firefighter/paramedic varies widely among the different states. However, I can speak for Michigan: Firefighter 2, as outlined by the National Fire Protection Association, and the Paramedic training takes approximately 1250+ hours of training. When these classes are put together along with required “core” classes an entry level firefighter going onto a full-time paid department has obtained, as a minimum, an Associates Degree, much like what is required of a Registered Nurse. Most states only require Firefighter 1 and Medical First responder training to volunteer in their community, usually about 250 hours of training.

The Union that I belong to, The International Association of Fire Fighters’ (IAFF) does not support the idea that “Volunteers steal jobs”. The IAFF does not represent part-paid or volunteer firefighters, simply because they represent the interests and concerns of Full-time Career Firefighters. By the way, this Union is the oldest Union representing public employees and is the largest single private fund raiser for the MDA and staff burn camps for burn injury survivors in almost all of the states of the country. Many of these Career Firefighters freely donate (volunteer) their time for these causes.

I for one, like many other Career Firefighters, started out as a Part-paid (volunteer) firefighter, first to give to the community, then the job became part of my life and I sought full-time employment, to this day I still enjoy my work.

Police use Part-time members, or Reserves, to augment regular police duties. They do not do investigations, write or sign warrants, and today they seldom carry weapons.

They bottom line I suppose, is that any job that may require you to give your life and/or well being for the good of others is marvelous, no matter if you are paid or volunteer. Just my 2 cents.
 
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