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St_Francis
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The philosophy that is the basis for your questions is relative secularism; it is not Catholic. Catholicism is different because it teaches that truth exists and we can know it.
So, when it comes to truth, is truth relative? Is the fact that the man who killed his housemate thought the victim was Satan *doesn’t matter. *What matters is the truth, and that the man killed his housemate who was *not *Satan: those are the facts. In the same way, just because some people think or claim that an unborn child is not a human being doesn’t make it true. Either one position is true or the other position is true, but they cannot both be true.
The Church teaches and has taught for 2000 years that abortion is wrong. Even when the medical facts were unclear, the fact that causing or procuring an abortion is wrong has always been taught.
Catholics believe that what the Church teaches is true. It is not an opinion, it’s not “our truth” or " true for us;" it is as true as the fact that 2+2=4 is true for a mathematician.
Consider US ideas about slavery before the Civil War. There were people who said, This is wrong. The slaves are human beings and it is wrong to keep them enslaved like his. The Church came out against chattel slavery in the 1400s. Now everyone believes slavery is wrong. We are astounded that anyone could have thought anything else, but there were people beforehand who claimed that the slaves were not full human beings or that slavery was not wrong.
Well, unborn babies are human beings and it is wrong to kill them. Therefore it simply *is *wrong for people to kill unborn babies. And if we have laws against killing people after they are born, there should be laws against killing them before they are born too.
I do think that some drugs could be legalized; I don’t think the Church teaches they must be illegal, but the issue of pot is more on the prudential end, imo.
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St_Francis
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This is what I would recommend: get a children’s catechism like the St Joseph’s (old-fashioned looking) Baltimore Catechism (or the online verson). It is simple Q&A, very basic. The would give you the fundamentals. Then I’d recommend browsing in Radio Replies, which gives a deeper view of the various issues. WRT social justice issues, the social justice encyclicals are good.
Of course, you will also want to look into the spiritual life of the Church at the same time, and there are lots of resources for that, but one (of many) good introductions is The Introduction to the Devout Life by St Francis de Sales.
All of these are available electronically. PM or ask here if you want links or if you have an iPod or Pad, you can get an app called iPieta which has them all. It is $5, I think, but totally worth it. I don’t know if it is available for other platforms.
From the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church):
2211 The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially:
- the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family’s own moral and religious convictions;
- the protection of the stability of the marriage bond and the institution of the family;
- the freedom to profess one’s faith, to hand it on, and raise one’s children in it, with the necessary means and institutions;
- the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate;
- in keeping with the country’s institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;
- the protection of security and health, especially with respect to dangers like drugs, pornography, alcoholism, etc.;
- the freedom to form associations with other families and so to have representation before civil authority.
The end of society is to continue itself, which is aside from the issue that the end of man is to attain Heaven and everything therefore should tend toward that.
Now, if a society is going downhill, something is wrong. We want to ensure that society goes up hill or stays in a good place (which latter is kind if impossible). How can we do this? By ensuring that the new members of society are integrated in a way that works well with society.
Thus we see that the basis for society’s fulfilling its function is the family, because that is the best way to integrate the new members into society. Hence, society must support the family in return for the work of continuing society.
And for this reason it is important that society protect not only the children, but the family and the new members of the society.
Drugs are worse than alcohol because their action is very quick, and this results in a reduction of the use of reason which can cause disruption to the society if widespread.
Sexual activity outside the bounds of marriage is very bad for the family. It distorts the sexxual aspect of the person engaging in it, and brings a bad disruption to society if accepted as a legitimate activity.
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guanophore
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"guanophore:
The Church only has the authority to bind and loose upon those who belong to her.
"guanophore:
"guanophore:
Kevin, please use the quote feature so that everyone can tell who you are quoting.
This is an interesting assertion. I am not sure I agree with it, but suffice to say that Catholics are under the civil law as well as the canon law, and canon law does specifically direct the faithful to attend Church. Ultimately, I think you are right, those who are not participating in Sunday Mass will eventually drift in faith, and affect the culture negatively. I think, in fact, that this is one of the reasons there are so many people calling themselves Catholic who do not espouse Catholic doctrine or live their faith.
The Church only has the authority to bind and loose upon those who belong to her.
It is! When you read the catechism and canon law, it will become obvious to you that this is the case.
"guanophore:
I don’t think this is an accurate statement. Tax breaks and legal rights are very much related to commitment, and in the case of couples, love.
For the record, I happen to agree with you in your statement. However, it is more than all these things. It is not only legal, though that is a part of it. These rights and privileges reflect the status of a relational union. It is the relational union that is against the natural law.
"guanophore:
I agree with you , but then, you seem to want to compartmentalize that faith and morals to the point where it will not influence or interfere with politics and science. If we are not bringing our values to bear on all aspects of our daily life, then what use is our faith at all? How can one be light and salt to the world if one can only practice one’s faith inside the Church building?
Kevin, please use the quote feature so that everyone can tell who you are quoting.
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guanophore
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If you have no experience working in healthcare then you may not realize that it is VERY important for anyone who is ill to be surrounded by loved ones. Patients who are in the healthcare system should be assisted and supported by anyone they choose, whether they are born into relationship with them, or not. It benefits the patient, the caregivers, and the entire system when there is more help available. Society pays a terribly high price for the care of those who have no family or loved ones to assist.
Similarly, if a person dies, then their funeral planning and participation should be able to include all who loved them, whether they are born to them, or not.
I think there is some truth to this, but we don’t restrict marriage to those who are able to procreate. They don’t have to be cleared medically as fertile or fruitful prior to the marriage license. And couples that are not able to procreate can still contribute these things to society by adoption.
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guanophore
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Well, not exactly. Even if a person espouses any or all of these, there may be an EVEN WORSE candidate, in which case, we are to choose the lesser of the two evils.
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fix
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The pope has said alcohol is not evil. Drugs that seek to cloud and suppress free will would be evil for non medical purposes.you ignored my question.
and marijuana is illicitly evil?
many more people die a year from cigarettes than from weed, yet it is legal. so cigarettes are evil? Many people die from alcoholism every year as well, is alcohol evil? I mean it was illegal at one point may be we should go back to that…
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St_Francis
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I have never heard, in real life, of the hospital’s restricting visitors to family, only number and time, like only 2 people and only for 10 minutes.
It may be that there are hospitals which put that restriction on, but I do believe that it should be up to the patient to decide who is restricted and who allowed.
But why would this have to involve an attempt at marriage? Really, there are so many potential scenarios like this which do not involve those with homosexual inclinations or people who are romantically involved–you know, people who are just friends, that I cannot see turning the foundation of society upside-down for.
Maybe the funeral planning should be done by those who are paying for it.
There is a difference between those who are unable to procreate because of the state of their body (infertile or post-menopausal), and those who choose to engage in inherently infertile acts. It is the latter which undermines the foundation of society, by twisting the idea of sexual activity into a mere pleasurable act.
For those who are young, it may be difficult to understand the difference between a society in which sexual activity is strongly linked with having babies, because our society has degraded this with our acceptance of abc.
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Graubo3
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Grow up, buck up, and figure it out for yourself then. You really do not have a clue about libertarianism, freedom, nor license.
This is just another justification of smoking pot threads.
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St_Francis
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Katolikos started this thread saying she wanted to vote her “new” conscience but did not know how Catholics answer the argument secularists put to us that we are trying to impose our religion on them. It is others who have been more argumentative.Grow up, buck up, and figure it out for yourself then. You really do not have a clue about libertarianism, freedom, nor license.
So why would you be so rough on her? Why not provide the relevant paragraphs and a link to the CCC? Why not make the effort to understand what the CCC is, which is a gathering of all the information *for the purpose of creating national catechetic materials, *rather than an introduction to Catholic teaching? The CCC is more like an encyclopedia than a textbook, and not everyone is going to be able to understand what it says, since it is not written for non-Catholics.
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Mulligan2
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Are you being facetious or is this a legitimate comment?
It is readily apparent that there is a vast difference between the two things you mentioned. Murder directly impacts another citizen by depriving them of their life. Same-sex marriage does not directly impact anyone other than the two people involved. You are free to disapprove of their actions, but there is no constitutional right to “not be offended.”
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TheRealJuliane
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That is the argument many people use to justify voting for the pro-abortion candidate. They tell themselves, “Well, the other candidate started an unjust war, or doesn’t like the poor, or…” etc. etc. etc.
How could there be a worse candidate than one who espouses most if not all of the non-negotiables? One political party includes ALL of those issues in its platform. If a candidate signs onto that platform, he or she is endorsing the non-negotiables. The other party would have to be pretty egregious to equal that.
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katholikos12
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I’m in the military. I can’t smoke pot even if I do vote for it.Grow up, buck up, and figure it out for yourself then. You really do not have a clue about libertarianism, freedom, nor license.
I simply used gay marriage and pot as example issues.
My overall question is what is the moral thing to do. Vote for your own morals (“forcing” ones morality on another) or vote so that people can live out their lives as they see fit (provided undue harm to others does not occur).
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katholikos12
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To be fair, I threw quite the verbal punch first… I had that other response coming.
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St_Francis
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Oops, I guess I missed that one!To be fair, I threw quite the verbal punch first… I had that other response coming.
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St_Francis
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As Catholics, our morals are God’s morals; thus, we vote “our” morals so as to encourage a moral society. We know that there will always be sinners, and that some of these sinners will be criminals, bit our laws are an expression of what our society deems important.
And this way of voting is esp important when it comes to protecting the family, the foundation and future of society.
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guanophore
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The CC does not support “parties” but values. I suppose that a worse case scenario would be one in which the other candidate not only tolerates or espouses such views, but was actively making campaign promises to act on them, whereas the first might not. The Church is instructing us to vote values that reflect our faith. Sometimes the pickings among the candidates is rather thin, so we have to vote in such a manner as to mitigate as much evil as possible.
catholic.com/sites/default/files/voters_guide_for_serious_catholics.pdf
catholic.com/sites/default/files/why_homosexual_unions_are_not_marriages.pdf
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edwest2
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Who’s stopping anyone from living how they want right now? Answer: Nobody. Otherwise, why is anybody Catholic? Everyone votes according to what they want or believe.
nytimes.com/2012/03/04/nyregion/cardinal-timothy-m-dolan-urges-catholics-to-become-more-politically-active.html?_r=0
Peace,
Ed
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TheRealJuliane
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Understatement of the century.
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InJesusItrust
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I think that the idea of positive law, of separating morality from the law, is totally against God and justice. The whole notion of “who are we to impose morals” is based on moral relativism. Natural law tells us that there is a universal moral law. I suggest you study up why moral relativism is false and the ideas of natural law if you just cannot listen in obedience to the Church–though you really ought to realize that we obey the Church because Jesus wants us to, even when we do not understand.
In fact, the way liberals and so on try to interpret law is Pharisaical. For example, the intent of the first ammendmant was to allow people to hold and discuss controversial ideas–not to legalize pornography or much of the nonsense that passes for free speech. Thus people permit everything because they follow the letter and not the spirit. Leaven of the Pharisees, leaven of Herod–combined in a strange, perverse way.
Legalizing drugs is bad for the common good. Similarly, absolutizing the good of private property and refusing to make provisions for the poor is also bad.
Think like Jesus–Truth, Justice and Mercy–not a fallen, modern man with his silly political, moral and legal philosophies that contradict common sense.
In fact, the way liberals and so on try to interpret law is Pharisaical. For example, the intent of the first ammendmant was to allow people to hold and discuss controversial ideas–not to legalize pornography or much of the nonsense that passes for free speech. Thus people permit everything because they follow the letter and not the spirit. Leaven of the Pharisees, leaven of Herod–combined in a strange, perverse way.
Legalizing drugs is bad for the common good. Similarly, absolutizing the good of private property and refusing to make provisions for the poor is also bad.
Think like Jesus–Truth, Justice and Mercy–not a fallen, modern man with his silly political, moral and legal philosophies that contradict common sense.
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