Voting for pro death penalty president?

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Pro-life for the whole life Annie
No, pro-life is a termed created to describe something specific, which was against legalized abortion. When people start adding other definitions in, it dilutes the original meaning and creates a need for a term where we had already had a term.

Moreover, trying to put other issues under the umbrella is a tactic used over the past several elections to cause confusion.
 
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No, pro-life is a termed created to describe something specific, which was against legalized abortion.
We simply disagree then… being anti abortion is critical, but definitely doesn’t stop there.

The ‘Seamless Garment’ approach so eloquently promoted by Cardinal Bernardin and implicit in Catholic Social teaching is more holistic… pro-life for the whole life. I’m surprised by the objection.
 
That in reality doesn’t work since Jesus’ context is clearly in reference to not using deadly violence. Plus other similar references also point in that same direction

We gotta be careful not to read what we may like to read when it comes to scriptural interpretation, and I do think it’s really quite clear that Jesus is pro-life in the areas of capital punishment and war and abortion. War is a bit more complicated since one can make the argument that to totally eliminate the use of violence in self-defense can in and of itself lead to more deaths-- thus the Just-War Theory that the Church has long advocated per Augustine and Aquinas for starters: It is also my personal approach. Just war theory - Wikipedia

BTW, may you and all here have a Most Blessed Lord’s Day as I’m outta here for a couple of days.
 
When voting, one has to take into account the different positions of the candidates. One should choose the candidate with the most positions which are in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church and reject the candidate who has more positions which contradict the teachings of the Church. If the best candidate has one or two things which contradict the teachings of the Church but most of his/her positions are in accordance then it would be fine to vote for them if they are the best available candidate.
 
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Emeraldlady:
Why wouldn’t teaching be updated to address current issues? That’s the reason for the living Magisterium
Capital punishment is not a current issue for which we need a living Magisterium. CP has been around since long before the Church and throughout Church history, and throughout that latter time, the Church has specified that CP is not wrong if applied to malefactors.

The proper application of the living Magisterium to current issues is to understand the morality of new acts such as nuclear weapons or IVF.
The Magisterium also has to counter false doctrine claiming to be Catholic which is why it addresses the issue of CP now. CP has been gradually abolished around the world for the last century and a half without any special commentary from the Vatican. The big problem with a specific ‘faction’ in the US is trying to influence the natural movement away from CP using false claims which amount to stating that CP is intrinsically just and can never be deemed immoral. A particular focus of this ‘faction’ was the efforts of Sr Helen Prejean to abolish the death penalty as an unjust punishment. Being that there was too competing Catholic voices in the US Catholic Church ie Sr Prejean and the ‘faction’. the Church was compelled to address this in the strongest terms.
 
I would say that even the Catechism isn’t allowed to overrule the deposit of faith … and that the recent updates contradict the latter. In short, Catholics may certainly support a president who supports something that Catholic teaching doesn’t validly rule out.
 
One should choose the candidate with the most positions which are in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church and reject the candidate who has more positions which contradict the teachings of the Church.
That’s playing a numbers game without considering the relative gravity of the issues.
 
The Magisterium also has to counter false doctrine claiming to be Catholic which is why it addresses the issue of CP now.
CP has never been considered immoral when properly applied, so it is not false doctrine as you claim.
The big problem with a specific ‘faction’ in the US is trying to influence the natural movement away from CP using false claims which amount to stating that CP is intrinsically just and can never be deemed immoral. A particular focus of this ‘faction’ was the efforts of Sr Helen Prejean to abolish the death penalty as an unjust punishment.
I have never heard about this before, and think that if what you suggest is true, then the explanations would reflect that. Do you have a source for more information?
 
I just realized that you are absolutely right on this. We need to take into account the gravity of the different issues. For example, abortion would be a very high priority issue. The death penalty would be a lower priority issue.
 
For example, some “Pro-Life” oriented believe in capital punishment even though there are jails and prisons in pretty much all countries today, and yet Jesus said “Whom is the first to cast the first stone?” when a prostitute was to be executed under Jewish Law. Are we just going to ignore those words from Jesus while insisting we’re “Pro-Life”?
You might find one reference to that passage related to capital punishment among all the Doctors and Fathers who ever wrote on the subject. That is, your interpretation is your own, it doesn’t comport with the way the church has ever regarded it.
And what about acts of war, whereas Jesus said “Be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves” and “He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword”? Is “shock & awe” and the dropping of an atomic bomb on Hiroshima compatible with Jesus’ words?
Again, your position has never been accepted by the church, and is a rejection of a teaching largely unchanged since before Augustine.

From the beginning there were two variant interpretations of State authority relating to war and capital punishment. One interpretation was openly pacifist, and the other was non-pacifist. Two names especially stand out that wrote belligerently against all war, and therefore espoused universal pacifism. Tertullian, 160-220, and Lactantius, 240-320 also fought strenuously against capital punishment of condemned criminals. At the same time, the accepted Fathers of the Church never adopted these extreme positions, either outlawing all war as unjust or forbidding all capital punishment as inherently evil. (Fr. John Hardon, 1998)
I don’t believe in picking & choosing on which of Jesus’ teachings I choose to follow.
The question is not whether to follow Jesus, but whether to prefer your interpretation over the church’s regarding what Jesus actually taught.
 
I would say that even the Catechism isn’t allowed to overrule the deposit of faith … and that the recent updates contradict the latter. I
The recent change was almost an infinitesimal change -
of which in turn - the prior interation on CP
had a conditional - which sat upon
the questimated then-current state of the art
of Containment of a totally out of control human…

“rare to practically non-existent” - went to “no”

That said - the CCC allows for self-defense … Lethal too - Only if Necessary

_
 
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Pro-life is against the taking of innocent life.
While this is true, it is not the sum total of the Church teaching on the matter, which does connect the two issues. The underlying principle is the intrinsic value of human life. I have no problem with conscientious dissent, but we shouldn’t misrepresent the teaching of the Church, which most definitely considers both a pro-life issue, even if of a different magnitude. Nor should the Church, the Pope, or anyone really, be accused of political motives for trying to teach. No one likes that.

The issue is not a numbers game either. That never works. Human lives which have inestimable value fail when treated like math. But while both issues are rooted in the value of human life, the differences must be recognized. One is always wrong, always murder. The other is not always wrong, always murder, but has been throughout history used to protect society as a whole. Capital punishment is more akin to self-defense, or just war, than abortion.
 
CP has never been considered immoral when properly applied, so it is not false doctrine as you claim.
I think what she means is that CP has never been a doctrine, period. Some claim that it’s a doctrine and it’s not a doctrine.
 
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I think what she means is that CP has never been a doctrine, period. Some claim that it’s a doctrine and it’s not a doctrine.
That states have a legitimate right to apply capital punishment has been a doctrine proclaimed by the church for 2000 years.

What we have with the last two alterations (2018, 1997) are not doctrines, but judgments that its application in modern societies would be counterproductive and therefore it ought not be used. Judgments are not doctrines, and do not require assent. The doctrine remains unchanged.
 
I mean that it’s specifically a doctrine that capital punishment must or ought to be applied. It isn’t.

States around the world have been decreasing the use of capital punishment and removing it entirely and the Church hasn’t condemned this.
 
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What I replied to was where she said the Chirch was countering false doctrine in current statements about the DP. I did not say CP is a doctrine; I said it was not a false doctrine to claim it is not immoral.
 
What I replied to was where she said the Chirch was countering false doctrine in current statements about the DP. I did not say CP is a doctrine; I said it was not a false doctrine to claim it is not immoral.
The false doctrine would be to claim that it is immoral. That would be heresy.

One of the chief heretical tenets of the Anabaptists and of the Trinitarians of the present day is, that it is not lawful for Christians to exercise magisterial power, nor should bodyguards, tribunals, judgments, the right of capital punishment, etc., be maintained among Christians. (St. Bellarmine)
 
I consider the issue of the DP to be somewhat murky in the CC. I think the CCC reference to the DP contains caveats. Not completely sure.

For this reason, if a candidate were pro DP and against abortion, I would vote for him or her.
 
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TK421:
I think what she means is that CP has never been a doctrine, period. Some claim that it’s a doctrine and it’s not a doctrine.
That states have a legitimate right to apply capital punishment has been a doctrine proclaimed by the church for 2000 years.

What we have with the last two alterations (2018, 1997) are not doctrines, but judgments that its application in modern societies would be counterproductive and therefore it ought not be used. Judgments are not doctrines, and do not require assent. The doctrine remains unchanged.
The doctrine is that CP is admissible if it serves the common good. That’s always been Catholic doctrine. The Summa Theologica is an 800 year old document and Aquinas, a Doctor of Theology makes it quite clear that the scope of doctrine is that CP is forbidden if it does not serve the common good. ST II II 64 2

Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat, i.e. the good. This occurs when the wicked cannot be slain without the good being killed with them, either because the wicked lie hidden among the good, or because they have many followers, so that they cannot be killed without danger to the good, as Augustine says (Contra Parmen. iii, 2). Wherefore our Lord teaches that we should rather allow the wicked to live, and that vengeance is to be delayed until the last judgment, rather than that the good be put to death together with the wicked.

I don’t know how many times I’ve shared that information with you and you completely ignore it. Blows my mind to be honest.
 
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