Voting for pro death penalty president?

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Emeraldlady said:
2000 year old Church history is clearly that CP is admitted when it serves society but we are commanded to forbear from its use when it is harmful to society. That is the 2000 year old truth.
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“When it is harmful to society” being the operative phrase, and since this is something we each determine for ourselves there is nothing else to determine whether it should or should not be used.
There’s a lot of waffling here that seems designed to undermine the authority of the collective conscience to determine the common good.
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You have a conscience, and I have a conscience. There is no such thing as a collective conscience.
Why are you fighting the Church on this.
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I’m not. I’m disagreeing with you.
It’s not my assertion. It’s Aquinas the Good Doctors teaching.
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And where does he say “God commands forbearing from using the death penalty”? Without qualification, which was how you wrote it.
 
Ender said:
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Emeraldlady:
2000 year old Church history is clearly that CP is admitted when it serves society but we are commanded to forbear from its use when it is harmful to society. That is the 2000 year old truth.
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“When it is harmful to society” being the operative phrase, and since this is something we each determine for ourselves there is nothing else to determine whether it should or should not be used.
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Are you promoting some sort of anarchy? We don’t get to determine as individuals which laws apply to us and which don’t. We trust that to the authority who is a servant of the common good.
Ender said:
There’s a lot of waffling here that seems designed to undermine the authority of the collective conscience to determine the common good.
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Again you are not promoting the Catholic teaching which says it is absolutely crucial that a collective conscience is recognised in civil law.

397. Authority must recognize, respect and promote essential human and moral values . These are innate and “flow from the very truth of the human being and express and safeguard the dignity of the person; values which no individual, no majority and no State can ever create, modify or destroy”.[812] These values do not have their foundation in provisional and changeable “majority” opinions, but must simply be recognized, respected and promoted as elements of an objective moral law, the natural law written in the human heart (cf. Rom 2:15), and as the normative point of reference for civil law itself.[813] If, as a result of the tragic clouding of the collective conscience, scepticism were to succeed in casting doubt on the basic principles of the moral law,[814] the legal structure of the State itself would be shaken to its very foundations, being reduced to nothing more than a mechanism for the pragmatic regulation of different and opposing interests.[815]

Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.
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Ender said:
And where does he say “ God commands forbearing from using the death penalty ”? Without qualification, which was how you wrote it.
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This is exactly what I wrote.

“ Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat, i.e. the good. This occurs when the wicked cannot be slain without the good being killed with them, either because the wicked lie hidden among the good, or because they have many followers, so that they cannot be killed without danger to the good, as Augustine says (Contra Parmen. iii, 2). Wherefore our Lord teaches that we should rather allow the wicked to live, and that vengeance is to be delayed until the last judgment, rather than that the good be put to death together with the wicked. When, however, the good incur no danger, but rather are protected and saved by the slaying of the wicked, then the latter may be lawfully put to death.” Summa Theologica
 
I’m not aware of any POTUS candidate - who is adamantly opposing CP/DP ?

On a related note -
Voting for a rabid Pro-Abortion (aka Murder) Candidate should be a Forever NO-NO - YES?
 
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Abortion is not the same as murder as “murder” is a legal term. Nor is it considered “murder” in the Bible since a person who causes a woman to miscarry through his/her actions has to pay a fine, thus not be stoned according to Jewish law.

But it is a killing of an unborn child, no doubt.
 
Metis1 said:
Abortion is not the same as murder as “murder” is a legal term.
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When it comes to Commandments - Catholicism places God’s Laws above the ‘laws’ of Man

At conception - the babe in the womb is to be protected …

Yes - ABORTION IS MURDER

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Emeraldlady said:
We trust that to the authority who is a servant of the common good.
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The minister of the state, who has the responsibility for the common good, gets to decide whether capital punishment is appropriate. I do agree with that; it is after all what the church teaches. That doesn’t mean we necessarily have to trust him.
Again you are not promoting the Catholic teaching which says it is absolutely crucial that a collective conscience is recognised in civil law.
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You misuse the term. There is a collective conscience, but only as concerns the discernment of good and evil in moral matters, not as regards distinguishing helpful from harmful in practical ones.
This is exactly what I wrote.

“ Our Lord commanded them to forbear from uprooting the cockle in order to spare the wheat…
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You also wrote:
When God commands forbearing from using the death penalty, that is a moral obligation. What else could a command imply?

That is the entirety of your post (#167), and it is clearly different. We are in fact not commanded to forbear from using capital punishment. Rather we are only commanded not to use it if its use will be harmful, and that’s a condition I have never opposed.
 
EndTimes said:
ABORTION IS MURDER
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Legally and logically and Biblically not, and making up one’s own vocabulary really doesn’t make sense since language was developed to communicate. If we can’t agree on even some basic definitions, the purpose of language is shot. Nor does shouting make something that is clearly wrong right.

And, btw, I am not arguing against the Church’s teachings on this.
 
Metis1 said:
I am not arguing against the Church’s teachings on this.
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Well that’s fine!

This is a Catholic Forum and Catholicism’s Teachings are True according to The Catholic Church

[2270] Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
 
EndTimes said:
[2270] Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
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And why is it that you have me saying otherwise as I just got done posting that I agree with the Church???
 
Not sure where you’re going with that…

Part of The Church is Sacred Scriptures

Taking the life of a babe in the womb is Murder in the Eyes of God

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I’m pointing out that God’s Law supersede man’s laws…

Since this is a Catholic Forum - It must never by forgotten that Abortion is Murder.

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If abortion is supposedly “murder”, if an 18 year old girl has an abortion, should she be tried for 1st degree murder and given the death penalty in a state that allows for it, or get life in prison if a state doesn’t allow for it?

Just asking, though I have no interest in debating this myself.
 
Metis1 said:
If abortion is supposedly “murder”, if an 18 year old girl has an abortion, should she be tried for 1st degree murder and given the death penalty in a state that allows for it, or get life in prison if a state doesn’t allow for it?
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Depends. I don’t support the death penalty but would be fine with the potential for jail time.
 
Think about it like this:

Would you rather support a person who wants to kill the scum of society, or one who wants to kill the innocent and weak?
 
Metis1 said:
If abortion is supposedly “murder”, if an 18 year old girl has an abortion, should she be tried for 1st degree murder and given the death penalty in a state that allows for it, or get life in prison if a state doesn’t allow for it?
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Since Abortion IS Murder
  • it’s all the more reason to never support anyone who’ll work overtime to keep it legal
 
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