Voting pro-choice always immoral?

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The President has veto authority. Notice he had no difficulty stopping spending on children’s health care.

He also happens to be the head of the party which controlled congress during most of his tenure.
When those that have the authority to spend the money don’t have the “nerve” to force their spending bill yea or nay, then IMHO they are just grandstanding for effect. When you push for money amounts that you know will cause a veto and you also know (and I think they do) that they don’t have enough support to override that veto, then they are just screaming for screaming sake.

I was pleased to see that there are some Democrats that just do not blindly follow party policy this time around. The one thing I can respect of any politician (even those I don’t agree with) is that they vote for their constituents and not for the party line.
 
As far as I can tell, we have only two real differences.
I guess this is something we can agree on.

I am willing to supply links to the sources I quote so people can judge the logic of my position. And you aren’t.

Ender
 
Which is why most dont bother responding to him. Its always a one sided conversation. No matter what you say he will cut n paste in a whle variety of rants ranging from Republicans support forced abortion and slavery to Bush is killing millions of iraqis.
Here is a quote:
“The Holy See’s opposition to the use of force in Iraq in March 2003 is well known.”
Care to guess what crazy liberal made it? George Weigel, principle promoter of a just war theory in Iraq. He wrote it in one of his regular columns, THE CATHOLIC DIFFERENCE, this year.

Care to guess the subject? The Vatican’s concern over the plight of Christian refugees and the June meeting between the Pope and President Bush. So there you have it, a mission statement signatory for the Project for the New American Century - a promoter of military action in Iraq for over 10 years, can be used as a primary source for another of my ‘rants’.

Like the Pope’s indisputable moral authority, it is hard to break things down much simpler. It’s like the Catechism:
“The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.” CCC 2307 (emphasis added)
It’s all right there, even the prohibtions on the treatment of prisoners. Have trouble understanding it (it might be easy to miss that it is all war, not ‘good’ or ‘bad’)? Look at the official statements from the Church to the UN and from the Church (via special envoy) to the US - from 2003 to present.

It just isn’t possible to make the concepts and simpler or more succinct. They just don’t fit in the tiny air holes in the hamster balls. Especially when the occupants are scrambling around the room and using the holes to fling little jelly beans at me.

But my obligation is only to try. Ultimately, each of us must answer Christ’s call personally. Like the Church indicated:
“The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.” Doctrinal Note, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
It isn’t access or information. Everyone here has internet access, so 10 minutes, one typing finger, and even the most modest of IQs could turn up a mountain of information on all the topics at hand.

The only possible missing ingredients are courage and faith.

Is dismissiveness of widely accepted objective facts, false witness regarding my past statements, and indirect passive aggressive comments really the best you can do on these two fronts? Surely someone who is confident enough to declare that he is a member of an elite group of “good” and “true” Catholics, unlike “worthless sideline Catholics” like me has wells that run deeper than that!
 
The President has veto authority. Notice he had no difficulty stopping spending on children’s health care.
You do realize that the bill he vetoed was a bloated and massive bill that contained far more than the child care program? And you do realize that the child care is still funded and ongoing? In fact that bill was a massive tax increase, a massive government expansion that would have increased the scope of “child care” well beyond any need/poverty cases to become a social program for the middle class. President Bush has done a lousy job of controlling spending, but this is an example of not only wanton spending but also irrational government expansion. But in case you are interested, it appears that the bill has been reintroduced and probably is now in a form that is veto-proof, but is still, unfortunately both bloated and expands government’s social welfare beyond the scope of the original intent of helping the poor.
 
I guess this is something we can agree on.

I am willing to supply links to the sources I quote so people can judge the logic of my position. And you aren’t.

Ender
Notice that estesbob just ridiculed me for too many citations. Perhaps you should merge talking points for a more effective onslaught.

I’ve given up. Even a simple, clear, absolute point from the the Dogmatic Constitution couldn’t get through the bubble.

So, come out and play. Sure it’s scary. One Google search and you’ll have a mountain - and no Fox News, Rush, or Bill to keep it all simple. All those sources, all those viewpoints, and no one to prelabel everything… Oh My!

But it is like I just noted - the Gospel put the obligation on you.

I’ve quoted the Church, I’ve cited the Congress, I’ve quoted the White House… And it is still Junior High time, with estesbob doing another angry girl in the hallway stage whisper on my faults.

Presumably you are both confirmed as full members of the Church and presumably you are both afforded full rights of adult citizenship. My son currently has neither (1st communion, but not confirmed, conservatorship because of his disability), but I won’t spoon feed him either.
 
You do realize that the bill he vetoed was a bloated and massive bill that contained far more than the child care program? And you do realize that the child care is still funded and ongoing? In fact that bill was a massive tax increase, a massive government expansion that would have increased the scope of “child care” well beyond any need/poverty cases to become a social program for the middle class. President Bush has done a lousy job of controlling spending, but this is an example of not only wanton spending but also irrational government expansion. But in case you are interested, it appears that the bill has been reintroduced and probably is now in a form that is veto-proof, but is still, unfortunately both bloated and expands government’s social welfare beyond the scope of the original intent of helping the poor.
Im suprised Bush had time to veto a bill-what with killing millions of iraqis, enslaving women and then forcing them to have abortions, trampling our rights, supervising torture of brave freedom fighters and secretl;y making millions off the abortion industry-and that just before breakfast.!
 
You do realize that the bill he vetoed was a bloated and massive bill that contained far more than the child care program?
The bill contained the same expansions to the program that were championed by two current GOP hopefulls (who happened to be Governors at the time).

The president’s proposed preferred alternative is actually (per the GAO and conservative watchdog groups), more expensive and less effective (presumably because over half of all benefits would go to families making over $75,000.

The president’s three most repeated talking points also happen to be false. First, the program as vetoed would not cover families making over $80K. Second, illegal immigrants were not covered (the new version adds additional screening, but the benefit was not permitted). Third, his budget proposal for s-chip was not a “modest expansion”. Using constant dollars and the administration’s own inflation numbers, it is an effective cut and would push more than 1,000,000 children out of coverage over the duration of the extension.

This makes sense when you consider the President’s open position, he wants to elliminate s-chip and replace it with a tax incentive based program that, as noted, principally goes to middle class families who already have health insurance.

No liberal media or leftist propoganda required. Just conservative analysis, the President’s own words, and the GAO.

However, I can’t resist - the s-chip program in its entirety, is still less (about 1/5) than contract expenditures in Iraq which the IG has labelled “wholly unaccounted for”. The $1.2B in training funds that were “inauditable because of an utter lack of paper work and controls” this week was just a drop in that bucket.

There is a lot of gravy in a $2.4T war…
 
The only way people can dispute the Church teachings in this area is to come up with completely absurd scenarios A I have said many times the mental mastrubation required to claim to be pro-life yet support those who aid and abette the slaughter of our children is a terrbile thing to behold
This is a rare but not absurd scenario. Read about David Duke.

So the good Catholic people who decided to oppose the Klu Klux Klan and vote pro-choice in this case (note I do not know whether the Democratic opposition was pro-choice…but I do remember of David Duke specifically posturing himself as the pro-life candidate) have committed a mortal sin and will burn forever in hell if they have not gone to confession for this sin.

Hey, I’m not even saying that it is wrong even in this case to vote for David Duke (although I personally believe it is). I just believe that it is wrong to decide for God that He will throw people in Hell for making at least a very justified (if not painful) moral decision in this case.
 
The sin is idolatry. We are not a two party system. There is nothing to stop you from voting for a person whom you truly find exemplary.
Actually in this case I am not talking about voting third party (although I do believe there are cases where this is justified and have done so many times).

I am talking about rare, but not absurd and unheard of, cases where it at least is arguably morally justified to vote for a pro-abortion candidate versus the pro-life alternative (in this case the moral justification being to thwart the greater evil).
 
The President has veto authority. Notice he had no difficulty stopping spending on children’s health care.

He also happens to be the head of the party which controlled congress during most of his tenure.
Look beyond the what to the why. What was attached to the bill that became the fatal flaw? You are dangerously close to demonizing those “wascally Wepubwicans”
 
This is a rare but not absurd scenario. Read about David Duke.

So the good Catholic people who decided to oppose the Klu Klux Klan and vote pro-choice in this case (note I do not know whether the Democratic opposition was pro-choice…but I do remember of David Duke specifically posturing himself as the pro-life candidate) have committed a mortal sin and will burn forever in hell if they have not gone to confession for this sin.

Hey, I’m not even saying that it is wrong even in this case to vote for David Duke (although I personally believe it is). I just believe that it is wrong to decide for God that He will throw people in Hell for making at least a very justified (if not painful) moral decision in this case.
The obvious scenario is you don’t vote for either. Pro-abortion politicians and judges have caused more deaths than do you mean everything dreamed of.

Again the only when one can vote for pro-abortion candidate and stay within Church teachings is that both candidates are for abortion you would go for the one who do less harm than the other. Personally in this situation the voter finds himself with the blood of innocents on their hands regardless and I would nott vote for either.

There simply is no more important issue facing this country and proportion. All rights flow from the right to life.
 
Look beyond the what to the why. What was attached to the bill that became the fatal flaw? You are dangerously close to demonizing those “wascally Wepubwicans”
Of course the child can’t enjoy health care of any kind, paid for the government or not, if it is killed before it escapes its mother’s womb. It is interesting that these so-called champions of the children aid and abet the slaughter of 1.2 million a year.
 
The obvious scenario is you don’t vote for either. Pro-abortion politicians and judges have caused more deaths than do you mean everything dreamed of.
I could understand not voting for either and would consider that option myself.

But I also understand the reasoning in this one case voting for the generic pro-choice candidate to stop the greater evil. After a lot of thought, if I were a citizen in Louisiana, that would probably be my choice.

But that is not my question. We can discuss the of the various options back and forth in this case. My question remains is either option in this dilemma immoral and a mortal sin in Catholicism. Or are these dillemmas issues where Catholics of good faith might disagree.
Again the only when one can vote for pro-abortion candidate and stay within Church teachings is that both candidates are for abortion you would go for the one who do less harm than the other.
Could you please support this with church documentation. What I have read on this topic seems to have some level of ambiguity.
Personally in this situation the voter finds himself with the blood of innocents on their hands regardless and I would nott vote for either.
That has been the general rule of thumb I have followed. But I can see cases where voting to block the greater evil is justified.
There simply is no more important issue facing this country and proportion. All rights flow from the right to life.
Agreed.👍
 
I could understand not voting for either and would consider that option myself.

But I also understand the reasoning in this one case voting for the generic pro-choice candidate to stop the greater evil. After a lot of thought, if I were a citizen in Louisiana, that would probably be my choice.

But that is not my question. We can discuss the of the various options back and forth in this case. My question remains is either option in this dilemma immoral and a mortal sin in Catholicism. Or are these dillemmas issues where Catholics of good faith might disagree.

Could you please support this with church documentation. What I have read on this topic seems to have some level of ambiguity.
priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0956318820070509?feedType=RSS&rpc=22

tldm.org/News7/Myers.htm

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=1321
That has been the general rule of thumb I have followed. But I can see cases where voting to block the greater evil is justified.

Agreed.👍
The problem with the scenario you present, ie Idi Amin versus a pro-abortion candidate, is that some people are so consumed with hate for George Bush they they believe he is more evil than Idi Amin, Hitler and Stalin combined(just read this trade for example). We saw this in the last elections where people said it was OK Kerry even though he supports taxpayer-funded abortions up until the moment the child’s head fully exit womb because Bush is so evil. People of course are entitled to their own opinion but when they falsely express that their opinion in accordance with Catholic teaching they must be called on it.
 
Actually in this case I am not talking about voting third party (although I do believe there are cases where this is justified and have done so many times).

I am talking about rare, but not absurd and unheard of, cases where it at least is arguably morally justified to vote for a pro-abortion candidate versus the pro-life alternative (in this case the moral justification being to thwart the greater evil).
FWIW, Pope John Paul II introduced the concept of “limiting the harm” in his GOSPEL OF LIFE. The Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith issued a Doctrinal Note which ellaborated on the principle pretty extensively.

Still, it is hard to apply. For example, the new Missouri law. Some Catholic theologians argue that, since it expressly permits abortion, voting for it is immoral. Others argue that, because of mechanisms intended to inhibit clinics, it qualifies as a pragmatic mechanism of limiting the harm.

One of the most interesting studies I’ve read made the point that part of the provisions are good, for example it provides funding to alternatives to abortion, but that “limiting the harm” is actually illicit because it uses illicit means to achieve the ends. It notes that the law was crafted to specifically target a few abortion providers, all primarily servicing the poor. I was actually surprised because the two authors have shown themselves to be strongly pro-life in their past works, but I must admit the argument made sense.

Using the legal system to bring the power of the state, not on specific practices, but on select practitioners is, in itself, a tyrannical act. Further, a mechanism of false hurdles (ex. high surgical construction standards for a facility that offers no surgical procedures at all), is an attempt to circumvent the Constitutional process. That process is not perfect (the legality of abortion is a demonstration of that), but it is the closest we have in US law to the recognition of the fundemental rights of the human person from possible tyranny of a majority.

Rather one accepts the argument or not, I thought that the concept of “warning signs” was an interesting one. I can’t recall all of them, but the fact that providers for the abortions of the wealthy (about 40% of the procurred abortions in the state) was one noted. And examples of past use of the same tactic in supressing human rights was another.

No one said that voting one’s whole faith was/is easy. But limiting oneself to even a single teaching isn’t that easy either. It might be a no brainer in choosing candidates, but how do you respond to reality?

Friday afternoons (EST) are often interesting, it is usually when something that politicians do not want to get must attention in a main news cycle is released. I don’t suppose anyone here has been wondering about the CDC’s abortion survellience program? It has been reporting on legal abortions for the last 35 years. Oddly, we missed a reporting cycle. It now appears that we have some clues as to why…
 
Look beyond the what to the why. What was attached to the bill that became the fatal flaw? You are dangerously close to demonizing those “wascally Wepubwicans”
As to why - I don’t try to analyze the unstated motives of the administration. I can subject their comments to scrutiny against objective fact and I can question their committment to stated principles by noting past actions, but I cannot look into their hearts and minds to find true intentions.

We have a president with zero record of committment to fiscal responsibility. We also have Plan D, the massively expensive, and so far ineffective, expansion of public health benefits.

Why a relatively inexpensive plan, which has shown itself to be popular and effective, has bipartisan support in both houses of congress, and gets good marks from the GAO on effectivness is not acceptable is for the President to know and folks like me to only guess about.

Is it the Grover Norquist reasoning of only supporting costly and ineffective programs so that government can be crippled and eventually small enough “to drown in a bathtub”? Or maybe programs are only judged on the opportunity for massive no bid contracts and wealth redistribution…

I’ll leave such guessing games to the pundit class. I merely feel compelled to resist evil in as many forms as possible.

Forced abortions for profit, evil.
Torture of prisoners, evil.
Twisting mechanisms of justice to political purposes, evil.
Supressing basic civil rights, evil.
A state and policy of perpetual war, evil.

I actually give a lot more thought to not demonizing than you might think. Even the decision to say, not respond to a snarky comment about “typing slower” with something like “Great idea! Anything that lets you put more of your mental capacity towards coherent thought…” often involves prayer and reflection.

Something I see very clearly in, say, the Sermon on the Mount, is that Jesus instructs us to directly resist evil, but without adopting evil ourselves. It is an incredibly difficult path and easy to rationionalize leaving it. For example, Ender is directly communicating and saying ‘show me’. How does one coax ‘look’ or ‘heal yourself’ without going to far?

On the other hand, estesbob is in active denial, objective facts are ‘rants’. Further, interaction is limited to indirect insults using exaggerated claims. How does one encourage less pointless and self destructive behavior without creating still more of the fear and negative emotions that normally drive such behavior?

Just because I often don’t get it right does not mean that I don’t consider it or give serious thought to other’s equal status as beloved creations of God.

Of course I have my own demons, but I am also quite fortunate. Having spent two years in close proximity to the deadliest combat in USMC history, raised a severely disabled son, survived cancer, etc., I’m just not going to be easily threatened in my sense of self worth or intinsic value as a human being by nasty comments from some faceless individuals on the internet. That makes it much easier to resist the tempation of “redemptive violence”, which Christ instructed us is a path away from God.

Demonizing individuals is still such violence. You are attacking the person with motives of self interest and hate. Substituting, say, lies for fists does not make it any more palattable, or any less self destructive.
 
Actually I found the best article (imho) (here.

Now, I could be a stick in the mud and say none of this is infallible ex-cathedra stuff. However, I will concede that Cardinal Ratzinger carries a lot of weight in Catholicism and should be taken seriously.🙂

However, I will be a stickler and distinguish between what Cardinal Ratzinger says and other Catholics say that He is saying.

First of all the only ones that he explicitely states should not receive communion are those who vote for a pro-choice candidate because he is pro-choice.

Second of all the phrase “proportionate reasons” is ambiguous. You and SoCalRC interpret that phrase differently. If I were Catholic I would interpret somewhere in the between you twol. But more importantly, I would recognize that my interpretation of that phrase is just that…my interpretation. If a fellow Catholic had a different interpretation of that phrase (as both of you do) that seemed credible, who am I to say with 100% certainty that either of you are wrong. Similarly if a fellow Catholic came to me with a moral reason for voting pro-choice (such as the opponent of David Duke) that seemed credible and well grounded in morality, who would I be to question the faith of this Catholic. At any rate, to assert dogmatically that there are *absolutely no cases *where a Catholic can in good conscience vote for a relatively more pro-abortion candidate versus a relatively more pro-life candidate really seems to be no more than one’s personal opinion as opposed from something that Rome has declared.

Of course I am not Catholic, so all of this is idle speculation.😃

As far as the “This Rock” article states, my major criticism of it is that I think it fails to distinguish the relative amount of influence an office has over a given moral objective. If I were to factor influence into the equation I could easily convince myself that a pro-life President that supports and drags our nation into an unjust war is morally worse than a pro-choice President who avoids unjust wars (not that I believe this necessarily, but I would find that argument compelling).

I also am not convinced of the metric of comparing evils in terms of numbers (abortion kills 1.3 million while an unjust war kills 200K, therefore abortion is 6X the evil an unjust war is). Isn’t an abortionist who does one abortion just as much an abortionist as the one that does hundreds of abortions. But I might be wrong here (haven’t made up my mind…just questioning)
The problem with the scenario you present, ie Idi Amin versus a pro-abortion candidate, is that some people are so consumed with hate for George Bush they they believe he is more evil than Idi Amin, Hitler and Stalin combined(just read this trade for example). We saw this in the last elections where people said it was OK Kerry even though he supports taxpayer-funded abortions up until the moment the child’s head fully exit womb because Bush is so evil. People of course are entitled to their own opinion but when they falsely express that their opinion in accordance with Catholic teaching they must be called on it.
Well that is silly too (I have a picture of George Bush over my desk not because I think he is a great President but to twerp my own relatives who are just like that).

The problem I have is with the words “always” and “never”. Being the contrarian that I am, any time these words are used I try to think of opposing scenarios. Usually there are some; in which case the right words really are “usually” and “rarely”.
 
“The Holy See’s opposition to the use of force in Iraq in March 2003 is well known.”
I accepted this before. My comment then is the same as now: opposition to the war is not the same as condemning the war as immoral. The point at issue is whether the Church has made such a condemnation, at I think it’s pretty obvious that she hasn’t.
Like the Pope’s indisputable moral authority, it is hard to break things down much simpler. It’s like the Catechism:
“The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.” CCC 2307 (emphasis added)
A perfect example to make my point. All wars bring evils and the Church rightly abhors them and hopes to see their end. But (drum roll …) the Church does not condemn all wars or there would be no just war doctrine.
It just isn’t possible to make the concepts any simpler or more succinct.
Let me try: the Church condemns the evil of war but does not condemn all war as evil. More to the point, she does not teach that the Iraq war is evil.

Ender
 
Of course the child can’t enjoy health care of any kind, paid for the government or not, if it is killed before it escapes its mother’s womb. It is interesting that these so-called champions of the children aid and abet the slaughter of 1.2 million a year.
And I find it interesting that youd find the two mutually exclussive. Catholic teaching is that life is to be valued from conception to natural death. So, in addition to being extremely illogical, equating health care for the weakest among the poor with aboriton is seemingly non Catholic as well.
Second of all the phrase “proportionate reasons” is ambiguous. You and SoCalRC interpret that phrase differently. If I were Catholic I would interpret somewhere in the between you twol.
Actually, I am not sure that you have heard my reasoning on “proportionate reasons”. You may have only heard estebob’s repeated projection of a position that I do not hold.

I am probably best described as a ‘conservative Catholic’. So it would take extraordinary circumstances for me to consider voting for something that the Church has declared infallibly evil and honestly consider it a reasonable application of the principle of “limiting the harm”.

So I can not vote for a politician who is expressly “pro choice”, nor can I, in good concience, vote for a politician who profits from abortion, supports toture murder, or other gavely evil acts.
Let me try: the Church condemns the evil of war but does not condemn all war as evil. More to the point, she does not teach that the Iraq war is evil.
The Church’s official position is that the war in Iraq does not meet the criteria for ‘just war’. Catholic teaching, dating from about the 4th century, is that a war that is not just is evil.

Iraq is always an interesting subject in that I can count on someone pulling out Cardinal Ratzinger’s letter - but what I cannot do is get them to look at the ‘flip side of the coin’.

That is what we are really talking about. Estesbob can scream about abortion, but can’t seem to fit an obligation to poor children’s heath into the same ‘pro life’ model.

You and Fix can point to the Church and say ‘see, we don’t have to agree the war is not just’, but I can’t get you to look at the other side of the quote that you use. Some teachings are not negotiable. Arguing about which is negotiable has never been my point, I’ve always said that I can only follow my own concience.

The bigger question, is what about the principles you are willing to identify as non negotiable for yourselves? The question I ask is, if abortion is truly as dear to you as you say, why compromise on it and allow the revelations from the Abramof scandal go without more political consequence? Or, if you accept all three infallible teachings from the GOSPEL OF LIFE, why embrace torture murder as official policy?

Your response has been, ‘I find it doubtful…’, ‘Republican voters did not know…’, ‘I doubt…’ My response to that is simple. The Abromof scandal was huge, involved many convictions and widely publicized connection which tainted many politicians. Similiarly, we have had regular revelations for several years about torture and human rights abuses related to our so-called “war on terror”. Blackwater hearings, the NYT’s publishing the new round of toture memos, and the President’s nomination for AG calling the White House torture memos “an affront to God” in his first day of confirmation hearings, all in the last few weeks.

How could you not “know”? It isn’t a matter of access, there is a world of knowledge at your finger tips. It comes down to making a choice. Jesus put an obligation on each of us to answer personally (see my quote from the Church above).

Rather a person takes the time to hear what, say, Father Snyder, president of Catholic Charities USA, or Sister Keehan, president of the Cahtolic Heath Association has to say about s-chip or just takes all their moral guidance, and even familiarity about the facts about the matter, from a serial divorce, confessed drug offender, who has conceded publicly that he has lied for the benefit of his political alies, is ultimately up to them.
 
The Church’s official position is that the war in Iraq does not meet the criteria for ‘just war’.
You don’t seem able to distinguish between the prudential opinions of popes and their teachings as popes. There is no official Church position on the Iraq war; either for or against. There are any number of opinions that have been expressed by members of the Church hierarchy and, while these have been uniformly against the war, they do not constitute Church teaching that the war is immoral. They are opinions. Your statement above is absolutely untrue as the quotes below make clear.

This is from a statement by the president of the USCCB on March 19, 2003, the day before the invasion of Iraq:

*"Our conference’s moral concerns and questions, as well as the call of the Holy Father to find alternatives to war, are well known and reflect our prudential judgments about the application of traditional Catholic teaching on the use of force in this case."

"War has serious consequences, so could the failure to act. People of good will may and do disagree on how to interpret just war teaching and how to apply just war norms to the controverted facts of this case. We understand and respect the difficult moral choices that must be made by our President and others who bear the responsibility of making these grave decisions involving our nation’s and the world’s security (*Catechism #2309)."

usccb.org/sdwp/peace/stm31903.shtml

There war in Iraq may have been a mistake but it was not then and is not now an immoral war.

Ender
 
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