Voting

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richardols,

Re-read my message and you will see I applied my comments to both houses of congrees as well as to the Presidency. There is an unwritten and unbreechable litmus test for national office.
 
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Lucania:
WOW! “No one should ever, nor should THEY BE ALLOWED TO, vote by party line.” How one chooses a candidate is their business. Whether they stick their finger in the wind, or pick someone who reflects their ideals through party lines or not. You are talking about putting conditions on the voter. Now I agree with not voting for someone that I know nothing about, but on your last line, you lost me and it sounds:whacky: IMO. We cannot dictate how someone votes for a particular candidate.
Actually I am not so sure that this is true but first, what I meant was that the “Vote Party Line” lever should be removed.

But I was not dictating how someone votes, I was saying that they should have some basic information before they vote and as the Federal Government and the State Governments can remove the right to vote from certain individuals (those convicted of certin felony crimes and those who are dishonorably discharged from the military) I see no reason why some minimum could be put in place.

But I am not advocating this. What I am advocating is good citizenship. Yes you could walk into the voting booth and close your eyes and poke at votes, you could flip a coin, you could play “eney meny miney moe”, or you could vote the way someone told you to but the only way to be true to good citizenship is to get to know before you vote.
 
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ByzCath:
Actually I am not so sure that this is true but first, what I meant was that the “Vote Party Line” lever should be removed.

But I was not dictating how someone votes, I was saying that they should have some basic information before they vote and as the Federal Government and the State Governments can remove the right to vote from certain individuals (those convicted of certin felony crimes and those who are dishonorably discharged from the military) I see no reason why some minimum could be put in place.

But I am not advocating this. What I am advocating is good citizenship. Yes you could walk into the voting booth and close your eyes and poke at votes, you could flip a coin, you could play “eney meny miney moe”, or you could vote the way someone told you to but the only way to be true to good citizenship is to get to know before you vote.
Now I understand what you meant and to that I can agree with you.👍
 
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TPJCatholic:
There is an unwritten and unbreachable litmus test for national office.
Is there? Go to the Democrats For Life website and see how many Democratic congressmen and state politicians are pro-life.

I very much resent the rightists on this Forum implying if not actually stating that all virtue and honesty and morality lies with the Republican Party and its politicians.
 
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Richardols:
I very much resent the rightists on this Forum implying if not actually stating that all virtue and honesty and morality lies with the Republican Party and its politicians.
I don’t think anyone is saying that. I certainly don’t think so. But I do think it can safely be said that the overwhelming lion’s share of pro-abortionist politicians are Democrats. Additionally the the likelihood of a Democratic Presidential nominee who was pro-life is akin to going to the store and buying a “football-bat” or “soup-sandwich”.
 
richardols,

🙂

I resent people who do not own up to the truth. So there, we are even on ther resenting stuff…(teasing btw).

Instead of looking at dems who claim to be prolife (which I acknowledge there dems who are prolife), we should instead look at the incredibly strong voting record of the dems against even slowing the rate of abortions through law. That is the true reflection of where the dems sit on the issue of life.

As for morality, no party has a lock on morality. The republicans are morally weak in many ways, it is just that abortion trumps those.
 
Louis Mazar:
I am a Pro Life Catholic who has voted Democrat ever since I started voting in the early 1980’s and I will continue to vote Democrat because the Republican politicians are only for the wealthy and not for the middle class. The Republican politicians do not want to give tax breaks only to the middle class they want to give tax breaks to the wealth also. The wealthy do not deserve any tax breaks at all.
Louis,

In the most recent elections, I voted Democrat as well, but I can’t agree with your call for “party line” votes. Parties are not constant, and candidates need to be critically evaluated, not passed or failed according to blanket party stereotypes.

You mentioned taxes. Normally I’m one of those arguing against those who cry “lower taxes,” but I’ll tell you what I tell them - it makes no sense to arbitrarily pre-set a tax goal, whether it be “high” or “low.” Tax policy should be set based on sound fiscal policy as part of the overall package to ensure a strong fiscal base for a functioning government. Normally I’m upbraiding conservatives wanting low taxes at any cost, but to claim that the wealthy “do not deserve tax breaks at all” is just as restrictive and, ultimately, poor fiscal policy. I don’t think the wealthy currently need and further breaks (and in fact I favor rolling back many of Bush’s cuts), but tax rates should be a prudential, not ideological, judgment.

I would encourage you to review the “Faithful Citizenship” voting guide put out by the USCCB.
usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm

It is non-partisan and provides a full-spectrum approach to voting (I am not a fan of the CA guide).
 
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TPJCatholic:
richardols,

🙂

I resent people who do not own up to the truth. So there, we are even on ther resenting stuff…(teasing btw).

Instead of looking at dems who claim to be prolife (which I acknowledge there dems who are prolife), we should instead look at the incredibly strong voting record of the dems against even slowing the rate of abortions through law. That is the true reflection of where the dems sit on the issue of life.

As for morality, no party has a lock on morality. The republicans are morally weak in many ways, it is just that abortion trumps those.
The problem I have with the argument that the RNC is more pro-life is that I’m not convinced legislation is the answer. I think you need **both **legislation restricting abortion and greater support for pregnant women (living wage, affordable housing, health care, child care). Neither party has been all that impressive in this regard.

I also think it’s entirely possible to have a virtually abortion-free society without overturning Roe v Wade. I’d rather put energy into creating a world were women do not choose abortion rather than being focused on the legality of their choice.
 
Then you are not Pro-Life. Period.
Louis Mazar:
I am a Pro Life Catholic who has voted Democrat ever since I started voting in the early 1980’s and I will continue to vote Democrat because the Republican politicians are only for the wealthy and not for the middle class. The Republican politicians do not want to give tax breaks only to the middle class they want to give tax breaks to the wealth also. The wealthy do not deserve any tax breaks at all.
 
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Richardols:
Democrats are not for killing innocent infants.
I would suggest a closer read of the Democratic Party platform’s unequivocal support of abortion-on-demand. Contrary to your bogus claim above, the Democratic Party platform does support killing unborn children.
Democratic Party Platform of 2004:
Because we believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman’s right to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay.
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Richardols:
Louis’s reason for not voting Republican is only one reason.
Louis’s reason isn’t really a reason. It’s nonsense. It’s nothing more than one person’s drivel that “wealthy” people don’t deserve tax breaks.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Philip P:
I would encourage you to review the “Faithful Citizenship” voting guide put out by the USCCB.
usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm

It is non-partisan and provides a full-spectrum approach to voting (I am not a fan of the CA guide).
Ah, now that looks rather similar to the guide that was available to everyone from the England and Wales bishops for the UK general election in May. A wide range of issues that all Catholics should be taking into consideration when voting. Hmm, that’s cheered me up, the leaders of the US Catholic Church are evidently on the same page as the UK ones.

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
Ah, now that looks rather similar to the guide that was available to everyone from the England and Wales bishops for the UK general election in May. A wide range of issues that all Catholics should be taking into consideration when voting. Hmm, that’s cheered me up, the leaders of the US Catholic Church are evidently on the same page as the UK ones.

Mike
Still to be found at

catholic-ew.org.uk/election/index.htm

in the unlikely event anyone is interested. Six sections to consider:
  • Marriage and Family Life
  • Respect For Life
  • Criminal Justice
  • Education
  • The Global Common Good
  • Refugees and Migrants
Mike
 
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MikeWM:
A wide range of issues that all Catholics should be taking into consideration when voting. Hmm, that’s cheered me up, the leaders of the US Catholic Church are evidently on the same page as the UK ones.

Mike
That must be why it’s called the Catholic (universal) Church 🙂
 
Philip P:
That must be why it’s called the Catholic (universal) Church 🙂
Yes 😛

I dunno, I’d just gotten the opinion from posts here that Catholics in the US had been told ‘you absolutely must vote Republican because the abortion issue outweighs everything else.’ - even to the extent that it was a sin to do anything other than vote Republican.

I suppose I need to have more confidence in my - indeed ‘Catholic’ - Church. 🙂

Mike
 
Philip,

Respectfully, if legislation to make murdering our unborn is not the answer, then why is legislation making rape okay? Why not remove all of our legislation making all evil acts legal and hope that people experience conversion and knowledge to a point of never murdering or raping ever again?
 
With the pro-abortion party plank (diabolical), the Democrats are really the Demoncrats.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Philip,

Respectfully, if legislation to make murdering our unborn is not the answer, then why is legislation making rape okay? Why not remove all of our legislation making all evil acts legal and hope that people experience conversion and knowledge to a point of never murdering or raping ever again?
Our society already accepts rape as evil. If we lived in a society in which this was not the case, a law prohibiting rape would be largely ineffective. In fact, we can see this historically - for a long time, it was assumed that it was impossible for a wife to be raped by her husband. This was based on a corrupt vision of human nature which denied women’s humanity. We no longer view women as subhuman, and recognize that a woman is not obligated to submit whenever, wherever, even if the man accosting her happens to be her husband.

Regarding abortion, we are not yet at a point where we accept that killing people is wrong, or that the unborn are people (and you need both - I just read a disturbing article in this week’s NYT magazine about growing acceptance of infanticide in the Netherlands. Convincing people that the unborn are humans does no good if it is not linked to a robust consistent ethic of life).

The answer is to work to create a society where abortion is unacceptable, just as rape is unacceptable. Change society and the law will follow. Focus on changing the law first, well, as one whose politics are center-left, I’m really worried to find out that so much of our progress on environmental and labor protections is threatened by a potential court appointment. Had the generation prior to mine not tried to force moral progress via sidestepping the democratic process, this would not now be such a danger.
 
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MikeWM:
Yes 😛

I dunno, I’d just gotten the opinion from posts here that Catholics in the US had been told ‘you absolutely must vote Republican because the abortion issue outweighs everything else.’ - even to the extent that it was a sin to do anything other than vote Republican.

I suppose I need to have more confidence in my - indeed ‘Catholic’ - Church. 🙂

Mike
You are indeed mistaken.

We are not called to vote for any party but there are some issues that trump other issues.

One can not vote for a pro-abortion candidate just because you like their stand on other issues.

There are many places were we are free to disagree. Those issues that Phillip brought up earlier, living wage, affordable housing, health care, and child care are just such issues. But if a candidate stands on these issues the way you do but is pro-abortion, then as a Catholic you can not vote for them.

The issues raised in your UK document…
  1. Marriage and Family Life
  2. Respect For Life
  3. Criminal Justice
  4. Education
  5. The Global Common Good
  6. Refugees and Migrants
Only 1 and 2 are, as the Catholic Answers Voters Guide put it, non-negotables. Faithful Catholics can disagree on 3 though 6 but on 1, sanctity of Marriage (no gay marriage), and 2, pro-life, there is only one stand a faithful Catholic may take.

I find it funny that the leftists here at the forum who claim to be Catholic yet insist on voteing for candidates who hold and promote views that are incompatible with Catholicism cry out that the Catholic Answers Voters Guide said that we had to vote Republican when the Guide did not mention any Candidates nor parties in it, it just spoke of issues.

I find that very telling that people can read a Guide that speaks only to issues but then are able to infer a certain party. That tells you that everyone knows that the DNC adheres to values that are incompatable with Catholicism.
 
Philip P:
The answer is to work to create a society where abortion is unacceptable, just as rape is unacceptable. Change society and the law will follow.
I understand your point, but why do think there is a dichotomy between changing society or changing the law? I would say we can and should pursue both approaches simultaneously. Therefore shouldn’t we as Catholics vote for legislators who are pro-life in their approach to making laws as well as taking other actions to change societies outlook on infanticide?
 
Philip,

Nice try, :), but you didged my question.

Do you think our culture should have legal rape? It is really a yes or no type question…

The point I am making is that some actions are so greievous in nature that we absolutely must make the effort to outlaw them even if many people will still do them (albeit in an illegal manner). We are a human, and as such we must govern ourselves with laws and those laws MUST reflect a sense of proper morality based in moral law. If abortion is acceptable to be legal, then so should rape, murder, drug use, etc…
 
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