Voting

[thestickman]

Unless I’m reading the CCC incorrectly it’s the responsibility of our elected leaders to decide when/if our nation decides to go to war.

Also, unless I’m completely out of touch, voting for someone who supports abortion is always the wrong thing to do.

Seems rather clear to me. But what do I know? I’m in the 14th month of waiting on an annulment to conclude

 

[Philip_P]

TPJCatholic:

The Church cannot tell people who to vote for, but they can tell us the type of candidate we should not vote for.

And the Church has.

Again:
usccb.org/faithfulcitizenship/index.htm

 

[MikeWM]

Well, I must admit this was troubling me somewhat. So I did a bit of searching and came across this quote from some guy who used to be called Cardinal Ratzinger :

A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

Seems quite clear to me that’s it’s ok to vote for a pro-choice candidate who is the ‘lesser of two evils’ as long as you’re not voting for that candidate because of their pro-choice opinion.

Good enough to persuade me, anyway

Mike

 

[TPJCatholic]

Philip,

1. The complex array of today’s problems branches out from here, including some never faced by past generations. Scientific progress has resulted in advances that are unsettling for the consciences of men and women and call for solutions that respect ethical principles in a coherent and fundamental way. At the same time, legislative proposals are put forward which, heedless of the consequences for the existence and future of human beings with regard to the formation of culture and social behaviour, attack the very inviolability of human life. Catholics, in this difficult situation, have the right and the duty to recall society to a deeper understanding of human life and to the responsibility of everyone in this regard. John Paul II, continuing the constant teaching of the Church, has reiterated many times that those who are directly involved in lawmaking bodies have a «grave and clear obligation to oppose» any law that attacks human life. **For them, as for every Catholic, it is impossible to promote such laws or to vote for them.**19] As John Paul II has taught in his Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae regarding the situation in which it is not possible to overturn or completely repeal a law allowing abortion which is already in force or coming up for a vote, «an elected official, whose absolute personal opposition to procured abortion was well known, could licitly support proposals aimed at limiting the harm done by such a law and at lessening its negative consequences at the level of general opinion and public morality».[20]

 

[legeorge]

Lucky for us, the Pope is ending these discussions with a new 88 page document for a synod of bishops to be held in October. I know there is another thread on this issue, but here’s a couple quotes.

“…those faithful who receive communion and still support abortion rights are behaving scandalously.”

“Some receive communion while denying the teachings of the Church or publicly supporting immoral choices in life, such as abortion, without thinking that they are committing an act of grave personal dishonesty and causing scandal.”

“Some Catholics do not understand why it might be a sin to support a political candidate who is openly in favor of abortion or other serious acts against life, justice and peace”.

“But the Church, which teaches that life begins at the moment of conception and that abortion is murder, says Catholics cannot have it both ways.”

Basically, it is all about the serious decline in reverence for the Eucharist and receiving in a worthy state. Obviously, the Holy Father thinks that supporting abortion, even through who you vote for, is a mortal sin. Case closed. That’s good enough for me. I will not let some politician cause me to sin!

 

[Philip_P]

legeorge:

Lucky for us, the Pope is ending these discussions with a new 88 page document for a synod of bishops to be held in October. I know there is another thread on this issue, but here’s a couple quotes.

“…those faithful who receive communion and still support abortion rights are behaving scandalously.”

“Some receive communion while denying the teachings of the Church or publicly supporting immoral choices in life, such as abortion, without thinking that they are committing an act of grave personal dishonesty and causing scandal.”

“Some Catholics do not understand why it might be a sin to support a political candidate who is openly in favor of abortion or other serious acts against life, justice and peace”.

“But the Church, which teaches that life begins at the moment of conception and that abortion is murder, says Catholics cannot have it both ways.”

Basically, it is all about the serious decline in reverence for the Eucharist and receiving in a worthy state. Obviously, the Holy Father thinks that supporting abortion, even through who you vote for, is a mortal sin. Case closed. That’s good enough for me. I will not let some politician cause me to sin!

Care to provide a link on that?

 

[MikeWM]

legeorge:

Lucky for us, the Pope is ending these discussions with a new 88 page document for a synod of bishops to be held in October. I know there is another thread on this issue, but here’s a couple quotes.

None of those contradict the quote I gave, also from the Pope, that quite clearly said that a Catholic politician supporting pro-choice was wrong, and supporting that politician for that reason was wrong, but feeling the need to vote despite the candidate’s pro-choice position, because of his preferential position on other important issues, is perfectly justifiable.

Seriously, if the Communist Party of America (or whatever they call themselves) had a policy of passing a federal law against abortion on day 1 in power, would all the people here who think the abortion issue trumps all else, therefore vote communist?

Mike

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

MikeWM:

None of those contradict the quote I gave, also from the Pope, that quite clearly said that a Catholic politician supporting pro-choice was wrong, and supporting that politician for that reason was wrong, but feeling the need to vote despite the candidate’s pro-choice position, because of his preferential position on other important issues, is perfectly justifiable.

Can you please provide a link or the quote from the Pope again that says we may support abortion, which is what you are claiming in this reply.

What is a “preferential position” and what “other important issues” are we talking about?

 

[MikeWM]

ByzCath:

Can you please provide a link or the quote from the Pope again that says we may support abortion, which is what you are claiming in this reply.

I only posted it an hour ago! Look up

I have never claimed we may support abortion. I said it was ok to vote for a pro-choice candidate if the reason you were voting for them had nothing to do with the fact they were pro-choice.

Mike

 

[TPJCatholic]

Mike,

If a person knows candidate-x is prochoice, and they know candidate-x will work to advance the causes of death–then how can a vote for that person NOT be a formal cooperation with evil?

We cannot hide from the truth. Voting for proaborts is a vote for abortion.

 

[Jay74]

thestickman:

Unless I’m reading the CCC incorrectly it’s the responsibility of our elected leaders to decide when/if our nation decides to go to war.

You’re ready it correctly. The leaders have the authority because they have information that the public, including the Pope, does not have.

That is why most of the Senators who rode Bush for the war in 2004 voted for it, including Kerry. That is why many people who say Bush lied actually said the same things Bush said back before Bush even took office, such as Clinton and Gore back when they were first and second banana. They had the information that led them to conclude Saddam needed removed from power. The only reason their opinions changed is because it was an election year, and it was an issue to use against Bush, which is ironic since a vote for kerry was a vote for someone who voted for the war as well. stops beating the dead horse

I wish people were as outraged over Saddam gassing Kurdish children and maiming/murdering countless citizens as they are over Bush (with the help of votes from backpeddlers like Kerry) putting a stop to it. Do people really hate Bush so much that they would rather see Saddam build palaces for himself and torture dungeons for his people than to give Bush (who got help from backpeddlers like Kerry) a break?

Did I mention that Bush couldn’t have gone to war without the help of backpeddlers like Kerry, the democratic standard-bearer last year?

 

[vern_humphrey]

TPJCatholic:

Mike,

If a person knows candidate-x is prochoice, and they know candidate-x will work to advance the causes of death–then how can a vote for that person NOT be a formal cooperation with evil?

We cannot hide from the truth. Voting for proaborts is a vote for abortion.

And we know that the Democratic Party is pro-abortion. This is a plank from the Party’s 2004 Platform:

We will defend the dignity of all Americans against those who would undermine it. Because we believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman’s right to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against Republican efforts to undermine that right. At the same time, we strongly support family planning and adoption incentives. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

Did you pick up on the part that says “regardless of her ability to pay?” They want to force us to pay for abortions through our taxes.

 

[MikeWM]

TPJCatholic:

Mike,

If a person knows candidate-x is prochoice, and they know candidate-x will work to advance the causes of death–then how can a vote for that person NOT be a formal cooperation with evil?

We cannot hide from the truth. Voting for proaborts is a vote for abortion.

And if you think abortion is the most important issue, trumping all else, that is your conscience and your right. However, I still wonder if you’d vote communist or fascist if they proclaimed to be completely anti-abortion.

Personally, I follow the advice of the USCCB, the England and Wales Bishops Conference, and the Pope. They say that if I have very good other reasons for voting for a candidate who is unfortunately pro-choice, then I may do so.

Mike

 

[legeorge]

Here’s the link to the other thread about the Vatican accouncement. I found the article on Yahoo news 2 weeks ago.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64169

It is a sin to be pro-abortion. If a candidate is pro-abortion, and you vote for them because of “other issues”, he is still pro-abortion. And by voting for them, you have supported abortion. It’s not brain surgery here. You just desperately want to validate yourself.
Here’s my point with the whole “equal issue” theory.

I saw a man on the side of the road with a sign that said “hungry, homeless, diabetic”. So I went down the street, bought a value meal, and brought it back to him. I only helped with one thing on his list. I didn’t give him shelter or medical help. I just gave him one meal. According to your logic, I could have pulled a gun, shot him, and put him out of his misery (murder, you know like abortion and euthanasia) and it would have been an equal act, worthy of equal consideration. This is absurd, of course. Sometimes things are just simply black and white no matter how hard the world tries to make it gray. For me, I would rather not vote at all than let a politician cause me to mortally sin. They are not that important to me.

Sorry the link doesn’t work. I need to work on that. You can find it in the Culture of Death forum. Title says “Vatican: Catholics who support abortion cannot take communion” or something to that effect.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Vern,

Yes, abortion is a huge business. Killing babies is a major profit industry.

 

[legeorge]

MikeWM:

if I have very good other reasons for voting for a candidate who is unfortunately pro-choice, then I may do so.

Mike

Just make sure you hit the confessional afterwards!!

 

[MikeWM]

TPJCatholic:

Mike,

If a person knows candidate-x is prochoice, and they know candidate-x will work to advance the causes of death–then how can a vote for that person NOT be a formal cooperation with evil?

We cannot hide from the truth. Voting for proaborts is a vote for abortion.

And if you think abortion is the most important issue, trumping all else, that is your conscience and your right. However, I still wonder if you’d vote communist or fascist if they proclaimed to be completely anti-abortion.

Personally, I follow the advice of the USCCB, the England and Wales Bishops Conference, and the Pope. They say that if I have very good other reasons for voting for a candidate who is unfortunately pro-choice, then I may do so.

Mike

 

[TPJCatholic]

Mike,

Prove it. Please provide documents that negate the quotes already posted here to prove your point.

Remember, a person must have a properly formed conscience.

 

[MikeWM]

legeorge:

Just make sure you hit the confessional afterwards!!

Odd. I didn’t think something the Vatican ‘permitted’ (as in the quote from the Pope given above) required me to go to confession. And say what? ‘Bless me Father, I have sinned, I followed the instructions of the Pope’?

Mike

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

MikeWM:

I only posted it an hour ago! Look up

I have never claimed we may support abortion. I said it was ok to vote for a pro-choice candidate if the reason you were voting for them had nothing to do with the fact they were pro-choice.

Mike

If you are talking about this quote…

A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

And what are proportionate reasons? It is still material cooperation, which is sinful but by being remote I guess it might not be mortal sin.

I do not think someones stand on the living wage or healthcare can be considered “proportinate reasons”.

Proportionate is an adjective of proportional which means a number or quantity in a proportion and proportion means…

1 : harmonious relation of parts to each other or to the whole : BALANCE, SYMMETRY
2 a : proper or equal share b : QUOTA, PERCENTAGE
3 : the relation of one part to another or to the whole with respect to magnitude, quantity, or degree : RATIO
4 : SIZE, DIMENSION
5 : a statement of equality between two ratios in which the first of the four terms divided by the second equals the third divided by the fourth (as in 4/2=10/5) – compare EXTREME 1b, MEAN 1c

In this usage I would guess that number 2a applies.

So what the Pope is saying is that it is remote material cooperation when you vote for a pro-abortion candidate for a reason (not that they are pro-abortion) that is equal to the pro-abortion issue. There are not that many issues that are equal.

So I think you have read heavily into what the Holy Father was saying.